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Dutch Josh
Adviser Group Joined: May 01 2013 Location: Arnhem-Netherla Status: Online Points: 95327 |
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Posted: July 13 2015 at 2:48am |
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http://arctic-news.blogspot.nl/2015/07/arctic-sea-ice-collapse-threatens.html
With still two months of melting to go before the sea ice can be expected to reach its minimum for 2015, the threat of sea ice collapse is ominous. The Arctic-News Blog has been warning for years about the growing chance of a collapse of the sea ice, in which case huge amounts of sunlight that previously were reflected back into space, as well as heat that previously went into melting the ice, will then instead have to be absorbed by the water, resulting in a dramatic rise of sea surface temperatures.
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Dutch Josh
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Dutch Josh
Adviser Group Joined: May 01 2013 Location: Arnhem-Netherla Status: Online Points: 95327 |
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From Dutchsins Facebook july 12:
A large blast from UNDERGROUND happened along the shores of Rhode Island.... the blast was reported to feel like an earthquake followed by a GAS explosion. One woman tossed high into the air from the beach, and landed on nearby rocks. This is obviously an underground methane explosion. This event now marks two different methane "blasts" in the past few weeks. The first large methane event was along the shores of Lake Huron just North of Detroit Michigan. Both areas where this methane has released reside on the Northeast portion of the North American Craton. To have two areas blast or geyser off methane in a few weeks time, both in the Northeastern edge of the craton means we're seeing a beginning of the "methane event" that experts have warned about. If things continue on this path, we shall see several unmistakeable methane blasts, geysers, and even large scale releases. I have my suspicions on the true cause of the "wildfires" in North Canada and Alaska. I believe the "wildfires" are nothing more than versions of what we just saw on the beach in Rhode Island. Methane explosions which are leading to forest fires in the pine forests of North Canada and Alaska. Post Glacial Rebound Effect (PGRE) is the culprit of these methane releases. In perspective, scientists who are "worried" about large methane releases call it an ELE (extinction level event). I don't know if we're at the beginning of the full methane "event".. but if we start seeing more of these kinds of "explosions" and more events like the Geyser of Methane off Lake Huron... then we might want to take a harder look at the scientists claim about a Methane ELE. |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Dutch Josh
Adviser Group Joined: May 01 2013 Location: Arnhem-Netherla Status: Online Points: 95327 |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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CRS, DrPH
Expert Level Adviser Joined: January 20 2014 Location: Arizona Status: Offline Points: 26660 |
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Thanks, Dutch Josh! That NL site is good since it shows the decline in Arctic sea ice thickness as well as extent.
This is sobering news: |
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CRS, DrPH
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Satori
Valued Member Joined: June 03 2013 Status: Offline Points: 28655 |
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don't worry relief is on the way ? s a mini ICE AGE on the way? Scientists warn the sun will 'go to sleep' in 2030 and could cause temperatures to plummet http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3156594/Is-mini-ICE-AGE-way-Scientists-warn-sun-sleep-2020-cause-temperatures-plummet.html |
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Dutch Josh
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Thanks Satori and CRS,
The Earth could be headed for a 'mini ice age' researchers have warned. A new study claims to have cracked predicting solar cycles - and says that between 2020 and 2030 solar cycles will cancel each other out. This, they say, will lead to a phenomenon known as the 'Maunder minimum' - which has previously been known as a mini ice age when it hit between 1646 and 1715, even causing London's River Thames to freeze over |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein |
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Dutch Josh
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Solar activity could compensate somewhat for geological activity. The methane-release means heat can not escape enough into space. Decrease of ice and snow on the poles, Greenland, mountains (white surface is reflecting heat from the sun) and increase of sealevel (water picks up heat faster than land) might still get dramatic on the shorter term.
A lot of heat from the sun is absorbed by the oceans and melting of ice and snow. There is a limit for that. De-freezing of the permafrost means more release from al kind of gasses (some even far worse than CO2, methane in heat-containment). The "official scientific view"from the I.P.C.C. is not alarming but outdated (in my opinion). Increase in temperatures last decades was most dramatic at the poles/Greenland. Release of methane-gas-bubbles under the Arctic will cause (mini)tsunami's that may be unnoticed because the coast of the Arctic sea/ocean is almost without human activity but depend on monitoring by satelite and some oil/gas-explorers. An increase in sinkholes and some (ant)arctic earthquakes may be related to methane/gas-release (and/or global warming). I do believe that individual scientists (like Henry Niman, Dutchsinse etc) may be in the frontline of science but the outcome of their studies could be to dramatic (sometimes to raise funding ?) Still time will tell what the truth is, which view was more correct.
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein |
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jacksdad
Executive Admin Joined: September 08 2007 Location: San Diego Status: Offline Points: 47251 |
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The Daily Fail article is currently being quoted all over the internet. They're a notoriously unreliable source of news, and tend to put their own spin on things. The Maunder Minimum most likely had less to do with the so called Little Ice Age than volcanic activity around that time. And any reduction in solar output would probably be more than compensated for by something they didn't have back then - a runaway warming trend of the kind we're currently experiencing.
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"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary. |
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Dutch Josh
Adviser Group Joined: May 01 2013 Location: Arnhem-Netherla Status: Online Points: 95327 |
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Interesting video's from Guy McPherson https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TmifJIbD6o (with students making lots of noises) and Paul Beckwith (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS6-fwKU4oE why he is doing this from a boat ???)
It appears that there is a number of concerned scientists that are extremely worried. Even if they are not fully correct I think their warnings deserve attention.
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein |
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Satori
Valued Member Joined: June 03 2013 Status: Offline Points: 28655 |
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never mind Are we headed for a new ice age? http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2011/06/17/are-we-headed-for-a-new-ice-age/#.VaURmOyoFIE |
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Dutch Josh
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http://arctic-news.blogspot.nl/2015/07/ocean-temperatures-at-record-high.html
Ocean Temperatures At Record HighOf all the excess heat that results from people's emissions, 93.4% goes into oceans. Accordingly, ocean heat has strongly increased over the years. NOAA analysis shows that, for the oceans on the Northern Hemisphere, the June 2015 sea surface temperature was at a record high 0.87°C (1.57°F) above the 20th century average of 16.4°C (61.5°F), as also illustrated by the graph below. As the continued snow decline on Greenland also illustrates, high temperatures can be expected to keep causing further decline of the snow and ice cover for many weeks to come, given that the minimum sea ice extent is typically reached about half September. As the image below shows, sea surface temperatures as high as 10.1°C (50.1°F) were recorded in Baffin Bay, off the west coast of Greenland, on July 20, 2015. The danger is that these high temperatures will cause the Arctic sea ice to collapse and unleash huge methane eruptions from the Arctic Ocean's seafloor, in turn driving temperatures up even higher and causing more extreme weather events, wildfires, etc. The situation is dire and calls for comprehensive and effective action, as discussed at the Climate Plan. |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Dutch Josh
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http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/summary-info/national/201506
June 2015 was 2nd warmest for the contiguous USRecord warmth engulfed the West; drought worsened in the Northwest; and record precipitation fell in the Ohio Valley.The June contiguous U.S. average temperature was 71.4°F, 2.9°F above the 20th century average, second only to June 1933 in the 121-year period of record. Record and near-record warmth stretched from the Rockies to West Coast. The average contiguous U.S. temperature for the first half of 2015 was 49.5°F, 1.9°F above the 20th century average, and the 10th warmest January-June on record. The June precipitation total for the contiguous U.S. was 3.53 inches, 0.60 inch above average. This was the ninth wettest June on record, and marked the third consecutive month of above-average precipitation for the Lower 48. Above-average precipitation was observed in the Southwest, Southern Plains, Ohio Valley, and Northeast; the Northwest was dry. This analysis of U.S. temperature and precipitation is based on data back to January 1895, resulting in 121 years of data. JuneTemperatureJune 2015 Temperature Departure from Average (top) and Precipitation Departure from Average (bottom)
Precipitation
U.S. climate highlights: Year-to-date (January-June)TemperatureJan-Jun 2015 Temperature Departure from Average (top) and Precipitation Departure from Average (bottom)
Precipitation
Extremes
For extended analysis of regional temperature and precipitation patterns, as well as extreme events, please see our full report that will be released on July 13th. |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Dutch Josh
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Temperatures in the Arctic are alarming ! The melt of landice still is increasing (Arctic, Himalaya) what results in rise of sealevel and landmass (less pressure from the ice and snow). This new distribution of pressure results in seismic activity. (But also more methane gas and other greenhouse gasses are being released).
Climatechange offers oppertunities http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/june/50states-renewable-energy-060815.html and solar decreased activity may have their effects but if those effects will come in time is a big question.
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Dutch Josh
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http://arctic-news.blogspot.nl/2015/07/arctic-sea-ice-collapse-threatens-update-2.html
Due to warm ocean waters and to heatwaves on land that extended over the Arctic Ocean, while warming up rivers ending into the Arctic Ocean, the sea ice has taken a battering over the past few weeks, as illustrated by the images below.
Above image shows the last bit of thick (5 m) sea ice in the Canadian Archipelago, which became dislodged on July 8, 2015. It looks set to be virtually gone by August 7, 2015, according to the 30-day Naval Research Laboratory animation below, and as also discussed in greater detail in a recent post. The situation at the north-eastern tip of Greenland doesn't look much better, as illustrated by the image below. The comparison image below also shows the north-eastern tip of Greenland on July 5, 2015 (top), and on July 31, 2015 (bottom). The bottom image shows water in many places, pushing the last pieces of thick ice into the Wandel Sea and Fram Strait .
So, will the sea ice collapse this year? Consider the following three points:
Above image shows a trendline (shaded area) based on satellite data from 1979-2014, with annual minimum volume figures calculated by PIOMAS. The shaded area points at a total disappearance of the sea ice as early as September 2018. The width of the shaded area reflects natural variability, but natural variability could be wider than that, as illustrated by the fact that minimum volume in the years 2007, 2010, 2011 and 2012 was lower than the shaded area. In other words, disappearance of the sea ice could occur even earlier than September 2018 and if things get really bad, collapse could even occur as early as September this year. The situation is dire and calls for comprehensive and effective action, as discussed at the Climate Plan. |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Dutch Josh
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There has been a 4.6 quake north of Siberia (were the American and Eur-Asian plates meet) http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/eventpage/us100030gr#general_summary. This is not the first quake in the Arctic and is related to melting of permafrost and methane-release. http://arctic-news.blogspot.nl/2013/09/earthquake-hits-laptev-sea.html
The idea that sun-activity might explain global warming/climate change again is thought to be incorrect http://www.skepticalscience.com/solar-activity-sunspots-global-warming.htm and http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/solact.html and http://astronomynow.com/2015/08/08/corrected-sunspot-history-suggests-climate-change-not-due-to-natural-solar-trends/
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Dutch Josh
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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CRS, DrPH
Expert Level Adviser Joined: January 20 2014 Location: Arizona Status: Offline Points: 26660 |
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CRS, DrPH
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Dutch Josh
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JmrmwIyhAE
Gepubliceerd op 30 okt. 2013 A two part documentary presented by Sir David Attenborough - The Truth About Climate Change. Like ushttps://www.facebook.com/CarbonControl Follow us https://twitter.com/CarbonControl |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein |
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Dutch Josh
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http://arctic-news.blogspot.nl/2015/09/as-2015-smashes-temperature-records-its-hotter-than-you-think.html and https://www.facebook.com/AlamoProject
There is an El Niño in full swing which helps push average global temperatures higher, and records are being broken, but just how hot is it? For several years, we have heard that global warming has pushed temperatures higher by around 0.8 to 0.85 degrees Celsius (°C).
But in 2015, that number is not even close. Even before this year's strong El Niño developed, 2015 was a hot year. The first few months of the year broken records for the hottest corresponding period in previous years all the way back to the start of the instrumental record in 1880. Each month, new records fell. |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein |
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Johnray1
Valued Member Joined: April 23 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8159 |
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Dutch Josh and all, I believe that Global Warming is real. But it is not caused by us humans. The Earth has always went through periods of Ice Ages and warming. The Archaeological records Prove that. Most of the Dinosaur Skeletons being found in this county are being found in North Dakota,Montana, and Canada. These are certainly not Tropical regions at this time,but this also proves that they once were Tropical in the Earths history. They may be again some day. But humans are NOT causing this change.
It is Natural changes that have occurred on Earth for many eons. All of our Earth records prove that. So us humans can either adapt to these changes or die off like so many species in the past have.We are better prepared today to adapt to these changes than at any other time in history. We can either adapt or kill each other off in wars for resources that is not necessary and closing industry which will cause wars of survival.The Earth has always went through these changes and we cannot cause them and we can not change them. The search for the NORTHWEST Passage is one example. Sailors from many countries have died looking for the Northwest Passage because at some time in our Earths history it did exist,but it has not for hundreds of years because it has been frozen. Many thousands of sailors have died looking for this passage because it was handed down through word of mouth that it did exist at one time. It is starting to open again today. Some ships have made it through the passage that has been frozen for thousands of years,but it thawing again now. We must adapt to the Global warming and not fight it. All of those who intend to do battle with the Earths natural changes will die. Those who chose to adapt and change with the Earths changes will live.Johnray1 . |
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Dutch Josh
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Johnray1, I agree with you that there are natural changes in (local and global) climate. Continents have moved over millions of years from tropical regions to colder areas (or the other way round). Maybe poles have moved, the Earth-axis. Sun may have had some influence and the atmosphere did change over time.
However...the speed in wich climate changes the last decades is new in earths history. The only explanation 97% of science seem to find is that that is caused by us humans. It is good to discuss this, can humans have such an effect? But for what I understand humans have a role to play.
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Technophobe
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Both positions are right in my mind, the only question we could debate here is how much on each side? The carboniferous period (when all the carbon we are releasing was laid down - also by living things like we are) was tropically warm almost everywhere. This was a period without ice ages. Let the carbon out and we return to that. There are other cycles too which we could have no effect on, like solar cycles for example.
BUT THIS IS THE WRONG QUESTION. Whether or not we are to blame, we will not stop and neither will the natural cycles. So stop arguing about how to stop it (both impossible and pointless) and start planning how to cope with it (both possible and vital).
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How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving. |
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Satori
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Meteorologists say four tropical storms all raging at the same time, are a first |
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Dutch Josh
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Technophobe, when people like http://guymcpherson.com/forum/index.php?topic=3195.165 are correct there is no way to "cope" with the climate change the coming decades. When you look at http://severe.worldweather.org/ and you see SEVEN tropical depressions/storms at the same time there is already a big problem.
More warmth means more energy wich translates in stronger storms. Further temperature rise does not only mean more heatwaves but also more extreme dry or wet periods, more extreme stronger storms. If we would "cope" with more warmth by using more solar and windpower that might (on the short term) reduce the need for fossil fuels. I hope Guy McPherson(and a growing group of scientist) is wrong. That there is no rapid escalation due to global warming. But I do not see much evidence for that. I am not a scientist. What I understand from the IPCC on what to expect; the extreme weather, could be on our doorstep (and not in the year 2100 or so). Land ice is melting full speed, higher sea levels translating in more flooding. Before our planet gets to hot for foodproduction there will be a "climate-crisis"; already wars in the Middle East are partialy "water-wars". Water crisis you might expect soon in Asia with melting of glacier-ice in the Himalayas. (Leaving India, China etc. without enough drinking water). Rising sealevel and Bangla Desh do not mix.
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein |
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OriginalHappyCamper
Valued Member Joined: December 25 2013 Location: Silverton, Or Status: Offline Points: 2850 |
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Continents have moved over millions of years
The above statement is a theory with flawed assumptions. I would ask that the readers of this blog look at the below opposing view and reply on this link as to the validity of the age of the earth as put forth by Scientists. Watch the whole video. Yes it is the creationists view, with little Bible references mostly common sense. IN order to understand a theory we all need to look at both sides, then choose a view to follow. The speaker has his doctors degree in zoology and has been the professor that other folks received their doctors degree under. Start at video 101 http://amazingdiscoveries.tv/ |
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Jesus Christ died and was raised on the third day, the only "God" to overcome death.
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jacksdad
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It's a-coming, and as Techno pointed out, we're too full of ourselves to make the changes we need to reverse things, so we'd better start adapting while we can.
Personally, I think widespread famine is in our near future as populations reach unsustainable levels and food production takes a hit. About the time climate change starts affecting the delicate balance that determines the locations of the bread baskets and rice bowls of the world, the oceans are expected to be fished practically clean of food fish (2048 at current estimates), and we'll reach somewhere between nine and eleven billion - a population that the UN believes will require 70% more food than we can chemically force from the land now. The next few decades are going to be interesting - in the Chinese proverb way. Not good.... |
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"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary. |
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Technophobe
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It all comes down to simple physics, just writ large.
Put a pan on the stove to heat and put one drop of food coloring, gravy browning or any other pigment in one spot. So you can see what is happening. As it heats up, the water moves faster and faster. As the world heats up both the seas and the winds (like any other fluid) do the same. This brings tropical storms, thunderstorms, hurricanes, tornadoes and an overall climate-pattern change. Sea levels rise as well. Isostatic readjustment increases geological stresses too. So building damage, flooding, drought, crop failure, earthquakes, volcanism and resultant famine/diaspora. And all of the above writ very large. Each one of the above could be mitigated far better with forward planning. Building damage - better design Flooding - more levees, polders and buildings on stilts (polders are far easier to build now, before sea level rise) Drought - better collection, transport and storage Crop failure - stores, greater variety, gm and more appropriate strains/species to the new local weather earthquakes - more reinforced concrete/careful modern civil engineering volcanism - move away! Famine - birth control BEFORE THE PROBLEMS WORSTEN |
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How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving. |
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Johnray1
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Dutch Josh,it is not happening to fast.Remember the fresh Lilly s that were found in the Mammoth in the Siberia Tundra. Also remember that massive amount of mastodons that are still frozen along the Yukon River. They frozen so quickly and so fast and so recently that you can still smell them rotting in the summer time if you float the Yukon River.
If the Gulf Stream is suddenly cut off,the freeze can happen in days and maybe hours. The experiments done by scientist said that the Gulf stream can be shut off by too much fresh water interring the ocean and that is what is happening now.They said that the shut off of the Gulf stream was so fast that it really surprised them.Johnray1 |
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Dutch Josh
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Johnray1, I remember the stories of animals "suddenly" being frozen (as if they were caught up in a freezing blizzard, very sudden change). The melting of landice in/on Greenland already is weakening the Gulfstream. That might mean less extreme weather, on the short term, for Western Europe.
OriginalHappyCamper; 97% of scientist can be wrong, sometimes a more dissident view might turn out to be more correct. The 97% of scientist seem to agree that humans are effecting the climate. To what level they disagree about. jacksdad, I remember seeing a "model" on ZeroHedge on economics collapse. First step proberbly would be an increase in births, followed by a sharp rise of mortality. The timeframe in wich the climate-crisis would unfold is put by scientists between 2030 and 2100. Also the effects differ a lot, Guy Mc Pherson (and some others) seem to give up all hope (CH4=methane is making things that bad that there is no way of stopping things http://arctic-news.blogspot.nl/2015/09/arctic-sea-ice-collapse-threatens-update-8.html and http://arctic-news.blogspot.nl/2015/09/methane-monster-2-demise-of-the-arctic.html. On the other hand there is the IPCC http://www.ipcc.ch/. The problem I have with the IPCC is that there data is outdated and their conclusions are a compromise. They are way behind reality.
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein |
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Dutch Josh
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http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-09-17/decades-long-megadrought-looms-entire-us-lake-powell-runs-dry-nasa-warns
With the number of people living in the U.S. Southwest and Central Plains, and the volume of water they need, having increased rapidly over recent decades - and, with NASA scientists expecting these trends to continue for years to come - the current severe drought combined with thetapping of the Lake Powell's water at what many consider to be an unsustainable level, has reduced its levels to only about 42% of its capacity.
Forecasting that there is an 80 percent chance of an extended drought in the area between 2050 and 2099 unless aggressive steps are taken to mitigate the impacts of climate change, the researchers said their results point to a challenging - and remarkably drier - future. As Reuters reports, scientists from NASA and Cornell and Columbia universities warned earlier this year that the U.S. Southwest and Central Plains regions are likely to be scorched by a decades-long "megadrought" during the second half of this century if climate change continues unabated. See also http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/summary-info/global/201508 |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein |
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DeepThinker
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A question for all you global warming alarmists...
How did the Vikings thrive? And also maybe more important... how come most of the evidence of their civilization is now covered by permafrost? |
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jacksdad
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You do understand that nobody's denying that our climate changes over time, right? It's the rate of change that we're seeing now that should make everyone alarmed.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/29/carney-warns-of-risks-from-climate-change-tragedy-of-the-horizon |
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"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary. |
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Dutch Josh
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@Deep Thinker, do you have a source for your question. I do notknow of any viking-findings in perma-frost. But there are a lot of "OOPS" Out Of Place objectS that can put questionmarkson wath is accepted as science. Science in my view is always a developing story.
With hurricane Joaquin http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_at1+shtml/053314.shtml?5-daynl#contents moving along the east of Canada this storyhttp://arctic-news.blogspot.nl/2015/10/cyclones-continue-to-hit-northern-hemisphere.html becomes more relevant.
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein |
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DeepThinker
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DutchJosh permafrost might have been an exaggeration (I need to do some research). But the point I was trying to make is that the vikings lived mostly north of the Arctic Circle or very close to it... and their civilizations thrived during very temperate climate. The viking civilization would never had a chance to develop if it had to deal with a modern climate... it is WAY to cold.
As a matter of fact our climate has been warmer through most of last 10,000 years than it is today. Historically speaking we are actually in a cold spell climate wise. |
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DeepThinker
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This my take on climate change...
I know climate change happens. However I am skeptical of CO2 involvement in it. Even if CO2 causes warming nature produces WAY more CO2 than we do. However I am very concerned by "alarmists". I think they are dangerous to to our prosperity, economy, and general way of life. Even if global warming is real, I don't think it is worth destroying our way of life for a slightly cooler planet. Also I am not convinced that a warmer world with more co2 would be a bad thing. Such a world would be much more productive. Imagine all the prime real estate in Siberia! |
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DeepThinker
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80% chance of a drought 35 years from now??? How can you take that crap serriously?
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Dutch Josh
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Deep Thinker, alarmists should have a better plan. I am in favor of more durable energy. Fossil fuels are causing to much problems. It would be good for most economies if they could do a lot more with less energy. The US and EU should not be dependent off oil and gas from Russia or the middle east.
The reason why vikings swarmed out of Scandinavia proberbly had to do with to much population for what their own economy could produce. For your information, most of Scandinavia is south of the arctic circle. Their economy 'improved" by trade and robbery more southward (even Nort Africa Russia comes from Rossia which proberbly had to do with the red hair of the vikings. There are still a lot of questions about how their economy worked)
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein |
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Dutch Josh
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Deep Thinker, renewable energy is the future
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein |
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jacksdad
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Increasing the amount of atmospheric CO2 from 280 ppm to 400 ppm in a couple of centuries with no expectation of change is the corporate line put out by the main culprits and their hired lackeys at Fox News, the Heartland Institute, et al. How can you honestly take that seriously, especially when following the money always leads us right back to the people causing the problem in the first place?
It's simple cause and effect - the sun drives our weather and climate with the meager amount of solar radiation we receive (and manage to hang on to) 93 million miles out. Substantially change the atmosphere that's responsible for capturing that heat, and commonsense dictates that the climate will change. And we know that methane is a far more effective greenhouse gas than CO2, and your new real estate in Siberia is hanging on to massive reserves in it's permafrost. But not for long. It's not alarmist to worry about a climate changing far faster than we've ever witnessed before - it's choosing not to put your head in a nice, cozy hole in the sand and letting future generations figure out the mess we've handed them. When the governor of the Bank of England - one of the most conservative financial institutions in the world - is quoted as saying that "... the challenges currently posed by climate change pale in significance compared with what might come", it behooves us to pay attention. These guys are not given to "alarmist" views without very good reason. |
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"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary. |
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DeepThinker
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I am sorry to derail your guys tread :) I do enjoy the articles posted here. While I am skeptical, I am open minded and like to learn.
I hope I don't offend anyone but I want to see how well you guys understand the science behind climate. So let me ask a quetion... In the real world what green house gas has the most profound effect on our environment? (Just a clue it isn't CO2 and it is not CH4) I think fossil fuels are finite. I personally think we still have a huge untapped supply but the supply at some point is limited. Of course we need to find different fuels. The main reason for me is pollution. Pollution kills people, and all we are worried about is CO2. I feel that alarmists confuse people when they talk about pollution and green house gases interchangeably THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING. One is demonstrably always bad. The other is much more complex. I know I am going to get flamed but I want to say it anyways.... The only way with current technology to produce economically viable zero emission fuel is with nuclear. We can even use Thorium. It is MUCH safer than more traditional ways. The only problem is it isn't dual use, you can't make bombs out of it so TPTB don't like it. MTA: why would you get climate advice from a banker? |
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jacksdad
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Actually, on the subject of Thorium, we're solidly on the same page. Liquid Thorium salt reactors show fantastic potential without the problems of dealing with massive amounts of radioactive waste, they're inherently safe, and the US has huge natural reserves. The problem is that decades old legislation labels Thorium as toxic, so any that is found has to be properly "disposed" of. It's often found with rare earth minerals too, and they have to be disposed of because of the perceived Thorium contamination. That leaves China with a stranglehold on rare earth minerals, and consequently the markets they supply. As you mentioned, the biggest hurdle that proponents of Thorium have to get over is also one of it's advantages - it doesn't supply the raw materials for nuclear weapons production. In the eyes of the military, that's a huge deal breaker.
There are many, many greenhouse gases, of which CFCs are probably considered the most potent. You have to look at the ones that pose the most immediate threat, and CO2 and methane have the greatest potential to cause problems given that we apparently have no will as yet to curtail their release. Permafrost melting also raises the specter of even greater release of both. Don't worry - you haven't derailed anything. We welcome debate. There's been a similar thread on this topic that has run on AFT for years and never reached consensus. It'd be boring if it did. |
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"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary. |
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DeepThinker
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Miranda Devine: Perth electrical engineer’s discovery will change climate change debate“Yes, CO2 has an effect, but it’s about a fifth or tenth of what the IPCC says it is. CO2 is not driving the climate; it caused less than 20 per cent of the global warming in the last few decades” Here is a high level mathematician saying the same things I am saying. |
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Satori
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A Torrent of Errors in David Evans Case Against Global WarmingI was a LONG time climate change denier myself what changed my mind wasn't the political pundits or pseudo-scientists I bought a college level chemistry text book and read up on the carbon cycle the minute I finished my study I said "oh sh_t we're screwed" |
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Satori
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