FORMING GROUPS TO ENHANCE SURVIVAL ODDS

Is it too late for this topic? Is anyone interested in forming groups to increase the chance of survival? As a single person, even with preps and meds, I do not think that the chances of survival are good in my nice CA burb with looters needing preps - groups of looters that will only be concerned with their own survival. One solo person who is normally very self-sufficient still must sleep, and even when awake cannot be protecting all sides of a dwelling at one time. What questions would this type of interview/discussion necessitate?

Strength in numbers is good; however, you have to be very careful of your inner circle once you decide to quarantine.  Neighbors looking out for one and other is a great concept as long as there is some form of communication without making daily personal (close) contact.  In general, I would feel confident that my neighbors intentions to help me, and mine to help them, are good.  But I have a hard time making close personal contact with them after going into quarantine.  I would definitely do what I could to help concerning the security aspect of everyday life, i.e. early warning and being an extra set of eyes.  But close personal contact and socialization is a big negative. 

Being born and raised in Southern California (San Bernardino to be exact), I know what you're concerned about.  Glad I'm not in your shoes!    

Well said S2S! I have found that just trying to build a business partnership!

Meewee

SA, I very much appreciate your post. The issues you raise are certainly critical to the success of the business at hand - the business of survival. I shall consider these issues carefully. No team is stronger than its weakest link.

Those of us singles without family or good friends in the vicinity may have detected no neighbors who have prepped (therefore also mentally unprepared for the nightmare hell to come), or too pacifist to fire a gun at an aggressive looter (not committed to whatever it takes to survive).

I shall continue to ponder this group issue - we have all been thrown into groups with strangers in various situations at camp, military, sports, college, business, new in town, etc - and made friends. I intend to keep on making new friends 5 years from now.

 

cccc wrote: I shall continue to ponder this group issue - we have all been thrown into groups with strangers in various situations at camp, military, sports, college, business, new in town, etc - and made friends. I intend to keep on making new friends 5 years from now.

I'm am certainly not against forming groups - in fact, I think they are essential.  It's the 'how' they are formed that is often overlooked and what it means.

I'd like to gently comment that the examples of camp, military, sports, college, business, etc., all have the same characteristic - and that is the support structure that exists within and without these 'organizations'.  Take away that support structure, all of that 'outside help' that all of these organizations rely upon and you have a sure fire recipe for disaster.

Which is in fact, exactly what happens when such organizations are stressed beyond their intended capacitity and expectations.  This scenario is extremely likely in our future.

Human relationships are built upon trust, communication, understanding and needs.  This last point is almost always overlooked.  A lot of people work because of needs, put up with a tyrant boss or crappy working hours based on this fact alone. Given the choice, they'd be doing something else.

They are in fact, working for 'survival' with a tremendous 'outside support system' in place.  Take away that outside support system (grocery stores, gas stations, doctors, cars, law enforcement, potentially all of it) and they won't be showing up for work or anything else. In fact, who and what they really are will reveal itself rather quickly.

This is why 'knowing' your support group intimately is going to be so important - people that can truly be relied upon and won't leave you in a lurch or turn against you.  I cannot emphasize this enough.

In crisis, the issue of needs (survival) becomes of paramount importance and the concept of 'self' asserts itself in myriad ways.  The lack of a supporting network will really change people and I can pretty much state with assurance - you won't like it.

Survival is personal warfare, not in the sense of 'attack and destroy', but in the sense that all the rules are thrown out .  All of them.  We saw this with 500 law enforcement officers quitting during the Katrina disaster.  It just didn't matter anymore when they're world was totally destroyed.  We saw looters, assassinations, rapes, murders and probably much more.  And that was in a regional disaster, actually fairly localized compared to what could occur on a global scale now.

I only want to make the point that crisis is a time of turning, a time of revealing what character is in people and whether or not you can trust them with your life, or if they will be selfish and sacrifice you because of their needs.

It can a very innocous and innocent request that can get you killed.  What happens when you're neighbor comes over?  Let's just say that a pandemic outbreak has hit the States, everybody everywhere is quarantined and ordered to stay home.  But your neighbor has needs and he comes over.  What do you do?

If he's clueless, he won't realize the danger he represents, just knocking on your door, asking for something to eat.  Or water.  Or medicine.  Or toilet paper.  Innoccuous request, but under pandemic, deadly.

You need people who are paying attention and understand their 'role' and 'responsibility', otherwise, you risk disaster.

So, our imaginary clueless neighbor, decides he doesn't like you ignorning him and figures he'll just help himself, smashing through a window and trying to enter your house to find whatever it was he needed.  Suddenly, your isolation and quarantine is broken and you're all in danger.  You've got a big problem - brought upon you against your best desires.  You're going to have to handle it.

This is why trust is so important. This tiny example reveals that you have to 'know' your neighbors, they can't be putting you (and then themselves) at extreme risk.

None of this applies to the same degree when there is an 'outside support' structure in place. Your neighbor can simply go knock on another door, walk to the store, call for help, something, anything. He's got other places to turn to.  And so do you, if it happens to be you that needs something or help.  But take that all away, take away all forms of social organizations and agreements, all available goods and distribution points, all means of safe travel, potentially everything, and the social dynamics change radically.

Our family will be staying together at another home for as long as it takes to get through this together.  Now, I'm having second thoughts.  I'm worried about leaving our house because it will most likely be broken into.  I don't want to lose our valuables because we will need to sell them after this is over.  However, we do not have the time or money to start preparing to stay home at this point.  I thought about renting a storage unit, but the looters will go there also.   Any suggestions?

Know thy neighbor. Now is the time to get to know your neighbors. An established relationship now may come in handy later. Poeple tend to want to form in groups. Knowing whos who now will be invalueable later

Is it too late for this topic? Is anyone interested in
forming groups to increase the chance of survival?

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I can't address group survival. But if you do form a group, make sure to
have N95 "surgical masks". A virus laden evil-doer can kill as easily with
a cough as he can with a gun. There are only 2 plants making them in
North America and they are running flat out. They have nor surge
capacity. Buy some while you still can. It's good piece of mine. The mask
stops 95% of the viruses. Actually they stop 95% of all water droplets that
the virus hitches a ride on. If you have extra, you can barter them.

The mask will allow you to go out in public with relative safety if fitted
properly, it worked well for the SARS nurses in Hong Kong. Those that
wore masks and washed their hands never caught it. Take Zinc lozenges
for the 5% that might get through, they may cut down on viral replication.
Good Luck



Edited by Rick

Rick, regarding the masks, what is surge capacity?

Im also in So. Cal burbs.  =]

Fla_Medic wrote: Trigger, I noticed you hadn't received an answer about your hubby going to the garage. Unless he stumbles over an infected person on his way out the door, he will probably be fine.  You need to be within 10 to 20 feet of someone with the infection to catch it.  Have him leave his shoes outside if you are worried about him tracking any bird feces indoors.

Influenza virus sucks.  It's different than bacteria.  It can withstand extremes in heat, cold, dry and humid conditions.  A sneeze can deposit particles containing the virus and land on a tabletop and live for weeks.  Along comes joe-six-pack and sally-soccer-mom who touches the tabletop and then wipes their face.

And It's off to the races again...

Christ, I'm not going anywhere for months after this thing dies off without full bio-gear.

Oh boy, this worries me more than the bird flu itself.

While strength in groups is a definite plus, and great to ward off looters, there´s always the issue of leadership and weak links. 

Also, we all have idiots in our families, you know who they are, so remember, not only are you going to become the Rambo/Linda Hamilton of your household, but you are also going to become the shrink, the priest, the leader.

Some people will have a hard time following orders and will make rushed, stupid decisions based on ¨feelings¨.  Sometimes children can also add pressure and stress when they are scared of confused.

Survival is in the brain, not the heart. Make sure you don´t let anything overwhealm you so you can make sound decisions for your family and friends. This is VITAL for large groups,and since most will rely on the leaders for emotional support, you should try your best to be brave and remain calm so that your group can stay d anstrong focused at all times.

If all else fails use brute force

Brute_force...

 If all else fails use brute force

nice tie in with the handle!! I appreciate the wit!!!

 Perhaps Judge and Executioner also.  There are going to be a few "snap judgements" to make as this thing falls into our laps and progresses.

Come what may, never ever second guess yourself if you are forced to make a life and death decision for the members of your group vs one individual.

With ultimate Leadership comes ultimate responsiblity, not just for personal decisions but the for welfare of those you are leading.  If you are uable to make a decision based soley on the survival of the group you are in then follow someone who can.

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Excellent point Thomas!

3. As far as groups, we had informal associations with neighbors, but everyone stayed in their own home. I did lend a very scared  anti-gun single female a shotgun on night 2.We signalled using spot lights.

   "The strength of the wolf is in the pack. The strength of the pack is in the wolf." - Rudyard Kipling

Refresh Rudyard Kipling "Female of the Species"  and know the female will step upfront to protect the young...always.  It will reinforce our protection 

Diode wrote: I would like to form a group in central Georgia.    I have at least a yearsupply of food,  for me.  Problem is I live alone.  But I have guns and plenty of ammo as wellas plenty of non powered tools like axes, hatchets, saws, etc.My trade off would be an extra set of hands for work around a farm, and added security against attackers,   etc.  Any farms out there ??Temporary, of course,  at least until the danger passes.Then its back to my house - if it is still there.What happened to the state sections ?????

HI All !!!!

How about forming a group in the absolutely gorgeous, secure N. GA MOUNTAINS???? Mild climate year-round (easy to heat, short winters, and NO air conditioning needed!), pure spring water everywhere, rich pasture and garden, abundant woods, trout pond, very private and easy to defend (in a dead-end horseshoe-valley). And yes, I DO think it's paradise!

I have a farm in the N.GA mountains (15 miles from the beginning of the Appalachian Trail!) that I designed with all the usual modern amenities, but additionally I designed the large lodge as a passive solar with back-up gravity spring water, wood heat, and other self-sufficient goodies. Would easily accomodate a number of people with space for privacy, plus a barn, trout pond, rich pasture, woods, creek...

The lodge is VERY large ... about 4000sf, with about 2800sf finished. The terrace level is about 70% complete...just never needed any more finished area...yet.

I'm in much the same situation as you, Diode: Single, very well-prepped for more than a year ... Love living alone, but I would like to get through this with kindred souls ... BUT I also take seriously the caveats discussed in this forum. Serious stuff... I've been really torn about which way to go, but thanks for speaking up ... encouraged me to open up to this idea.

Here's another twist: I'm not living there now. I moved to another small farm in NC after my divorce (just for a fresh start) and had planned to sell my GA farm a couple of years ago.

But then I found out about the bird flu and took it off the market ... I was torn (and still am) as to whether to move back there (since it is truely a pandemic-PERFECT place to live!!!) or to continue building my new farm here, where I had committed time and money and established new friends. ARGGGGGHHH!!!!

Soooooo .... ??????? Now what???   Anyone interested in the possibilities for the GA farm ... with or without me (I still might sell it and stay here; I HAVE to sell one of the fast!) ... or how about joining up on the smaller farm here in the Raleigh area??? Or .... or ...

I feel that deerintheheadlights feeling coming on !!!    Strange situation to be well-prepped to hole-up for a couple of years ... but still so unsettled about where to do the "holing."

I'd love to hear from others who are still feeling uncertain about where they'll sequester for the duration ...and after... and how you're dealing with the "location situation."   

Dawn

    With just my husband and myself and 2 other adults, I feel we need many more in our 2 story home to "feel safe". My grown children all live around the US, and have already said they won't make it here if it all blows;( (one is in the Marines) We have ample food and water ect, but without the numbers to protect what we have here, what good is it? I figured they would all be home with their spouses, but they want to protect their own homes ect. So I've gone from 10 to 4. Anyone out there from around North Syracuse NY? lol Looks like I gotta scout a bit here.
    
    

PATB wrote: RE: late preping...because of this forum we will have the advantage of prior knowledge. How about a credit card set aside to purchase some items on time and on minimum pmts? If it does not happen it won't break you, if it comes to pass run out that door and buy, buy , buy the top priorities. Credit will not matter during the pandemic right? I am sure the people on the forum can give you direction.

    
It isn't too far to think that beyond a certain point in time during the pandemic that stores will only accept cash - for those that are even open. However, given news blackout, nobody, including those who run the stores, will see pandemic occuring and your credit and debit cards should still function. With a bit of luck, everyone here on Avian Flu Talk will get advanced notice of pandemic so we can finish our preps. Later, it might happen we have to break into grocery stores to get supplies. I've never tried to break the plate glass at a grocery store, maybe a hammer would work, I don't own a sledgehammer - though it would make an excellent weapon.

As far as forming groups, it's been covered here before. I live in low income housing and we actually have a community room and a building council. All the old ladies run it. So if I'm to encounter and/or join a group, it will start in the apartment building. Normally I don't consider neighbors to be exceptionally valuable given they're going to want my preps, but when it comes time to get more preps, it's obviously great to have backup instead of going alone to the store.

Women here need to take extra precautions, cuz there may be rape gangs. Don't go out alone unless you have no one to rely on, and be prepared to fight for your life.