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Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk

Bird Flu, H5N1and 1918:Lawrence Broxmeyer anybody?

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Joel View Drop Down
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    Posted: July 26 2006 at 5:11pm
Just read an extremely plausible yet out of the box account of Bird Flu, H5N1 and the pandemic of 1918.  was written by physician/researcher Lawrence Broxmeyer. You can view it by going to:
 
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Tuberculosis is not a virus see below please.......

Tuberculosis is a contagious infection caused by an airborne bacterium, Mycobacterium tuberculosis.

Tuberculosis usually affects the lungs, although it can attack almost any organ in the body. Other mycobacteria (such as Mycobacterium bovis or Mycobacterium africanum) occasionally can cause a similar disease.

Tuberculosis has been a serious public health problem for a long time. In the 1800s, the disease was responsible for more than 30% of all deaths in Europe. With the advent of antituberculosis antibiotics in the 1940s, the battle against tuberculosis seemed to be won. Unfortunately—because of factors such as inadequate public health resources, reduced immune response due to AIDS, the development of drug resistance, and extreme poverty in many parts of the world—tuberculosis continues to be a deadly disease. Worldwide, there are 8 million new cases of symptomatic tuberculosis and 3 million deaths from the disease every year. It is believed that one third of all the people in the world have a dormant (latent) tuberculosis infection, although only about 5 to 10% progress to active tuberculosis disease.

In the United States and other developed countries, tuberculosis has been more common among older people, whereas it is a disease of young adults in poorer countries. Of the cases reported in the United States in 2000, 22% involved people older than age 65. There were more cases among older people because they were more likely to have acquired the infection in an era when tuberculosis was more common. As the body's immune system weakens with age, dormant bacteria become reactivated. Fortunately, the incidence of tuberculosis among older people is declining because each generation entering old age has a lower rate of latent infection.

Because tuberculosis has existed in Europe longer than anywhere else, people of European descent are somewhat more resistant to the disease than people whose ancestors lived in parts of the world where tuberculosis was introduced more recently. Thus, in the United States, tuberculosis is more common among blacks, Native Americans, certain other minorities, and immigrants from non-European countries. Additionally, people in these groups tend to be poorer, live in crowded conditions, and have less access to medical care—all conditions that are conducive to the spread of tuberculosis.

Diseases Resembling Tuberculosis

Many types of mycobacteria exist; many can cause infections that produce symptoms similar to tuberculosis.

The most common are a group known as Mycobacterium avium complex (MAC). Although these mycobacteria are common, they generally cause infection only in people with a weakened immune system or with lungs that have been damaged by prolonged smoking, an old tuberculosis infection, bronchitis, emphysema, or other diseases. Similar to tuberculosis, a MAC infection primarily affects the lungs but may also attack the lymph nodes, bones, skin, and other tissues. Unlike tuberculosis, a MAC infection cannot be passed from one person to another.

The infection usually develops slowly. The first symptoms include coughing and spitting up mucus. As the infection progresses, the person may regularly spit up blood and have trouble breathing. A chest x-ray may or may not reveal an infection. A laboratory analysis of sputum taken from an infected person is needed to distinguish the infection from tuberculosis.

In people with AIDS or other diseases that weaken the immune system, MAC infection can spread throughout the body. Symptoms include a fever, anemia, blood disorders, diarrhea, and stomach pain.

MAC infection of the lymph nodes may develop in children, generally those between the ages of 1 and 5 years. The infection is usually caused by eating soil or drinking water that is contaminated with the mycobacteria. Antibiotics do not usually cure the infection, but the infected lymph nodes can be removed by surgery.

MAC infections were very difficult to treat until recently, because the bacteria were resistant to most of the antibiotics effective against tuberculosis. Newer antibiotics, such as clarithromycinSome Trade Names
BIAXIN
and azithromycinSome Trade Names
ZITHROMAX
—which do not work in tuberculosis—have been found to be effective against MAC when used in combination with ethambutolSome Trade Names
MYAMBUTOL
and rifabutinSome Trade Names
MYCOBUTIN
.

Other mycobacteria grow in swimming pools and even in home aquariums and can cause skin disorders. These infections may clear up without treatment. However, people with chronic infections usually need treatment with tetracyclineSome Trade Names
ACHROMYCIN V
TETRACYN
SUMYCIN
, clarithromycinSome Trade Names
BIAXIN
, or another antibiotic for 3 to 6 months. Another type of mycobacteria, Mycobacterium fortuitum, can infect wounds and artificial body parts, such as a mechanical heart valve or breast implant. Antibiotics and surgical removal of the infected areas usually cure the infection.

How Infection Develops

With most infectious diseases (such as strep throat or pneumonia), a person becomes sick right after the microorganism enters the body and is noticeably ill within 1 or 2 weeks. Tuberculosis does not follow this pattern.

Stages of Infection Except for very young children, few people become sick immediately after tuberculosis bacteria enter their body (primary infection). Many tuberculosis bacteria that enter the lungs are immediately killed by the body's defenses. Those that survive are captured inside white blood cells called macrophages. The captured bacteria can remain alive inside these cells in a dormant state for many years, walled off inside tiny scars (latent infection). In 90 to 95% of cases, the bacteria never cause any further problem, but in about 5 to 10% of infected people they start to multiply (active disease). It is in this active phase that an infected person actually becomes sick and can spread the disease.

More than half the time, activation of dormant bacteria happens within the first 2 years, but it may not occur for a very long time. Doctors do not always know why the dormant bacteria become active, but it often occurs when the person's immune system becomes impaired—for example, from very advanced age, the use of corticosteroids, or AIDS. Like many infectious diseases, tuberculosis spreads more quickly and is much more dangerous in people who have a weakened immune system. For such people (including the very young, the very old, and those who are also infected with HIV), tuberculosis can be life threatening.

Transmission of Infection Mycobacterium tuberculosis can live only in people; it cannot be carried by animals, insects, soil, or other nonliving objects. A person can be infected with tuberculosis only from another person who has active disease. Touching someone who has the disease does not spread it, because the bacteria are transmitted only through the air. Mycobacterium bovis, a bacterium that can live in animals, is an exception. In developing countries, children become infected with it by drinking unpasteurized milk from infected cattle.

People with active tuberculosis in their lungs contaminate the air with bacteria when they cough, sneeze, or even speak. These bacteria can stay in the air for several hours. If another person breathes them in, that person may become infected. People who have latent disease or tuberculosis that is not in their lungs do not spread bacteria into the air and cannot transmit the infection.

Progression and Spread of Infection The progression of tuberculosis from latent infection to active disease varies greatly. For example, tuberculosis often progresses more rapidly in blacks and Native Americans than in whites because of inherited differences in resistance. Impaired immunity also plays a role. Progression to an active disease is far more likely and much faster in people with AIDS. A person with AIDS who becomes infected with Mycobacterium tuberculosis has a 50% chance of developing active tuberculosis within 2 months and a 5 to 10% chance of developing active disease each year thereafter.

In people with a fully functioning immune system, active tuberculosis is usually limited to the lungs (pulmonary tuberculosis). Tuberculosis that affects other parts of the body (extrapulmonary tuberculosis) comes from pulmonary tuberculosis that has spread through the blood. As in the lungs, the infection may not cause disease, but the bacteria may remain dormant in a very small scar. Latent organisms in these scars can reactivate later in life, leading to symptoms in the organs involved. In pregnant women, the tuberculosis bacteria may spread to the fetus and cause disease; however, such congenital tuberculosis is uncommon.

Tuberculosis: A Disease of Many Organs

Site Infection

Symptoms of Complications

Abdominal cavity Fatigue, swelling, slight tenderness, appendicitis-like pain
Bladder Painful urination, blood in urine
Bones (mainly children) Swelling, minimal pain
Brain Fever, headache, nausea, drowsiness; coma and brain damage if untreated
Pericardium (the membrane around the heart) Fever, enlarged neck veins, shortness of breath
Joints Arthritis-like symptoms
Kidneys Kidney damage, infection around the kidneys
Lymph nodes Painless, red swelling; may drain pus
Reproductive organs  
Men
Lump in scrotum
Women
Sterility
Spine Pain, leading to collapsed vertebrae and leg paralysis

Symptoms and Complications

Cough is the most common symptom of tuberculosis. Because the disease comes on slowly, an infected person at first may blame the cough on smoking, a recent episode of flu, or asthma. The cough may produce a small amount of green or yellow sputum in the morning. Eventually, the sputum may be streaked with blood, although large amounts of blood are rare.

Another symptom is awakening in the night drenched with a cold sweat. Sometimes there is so much sweat that the person has to change nightclothes or even the bed sheets. However, these night sweats are not specific to tuberculosis. Along with the cough and night sweats, the person feels generally unwell, with decreased energy and appetite. Weight loss often occurs after the illness has been present for a while.

Rapidly developing shortness of breath along with chest pain may signal the presence of air (pneumothorax (see Pleural Disorders: Pneumothorax) or fluid (pleural effusion) in the space between the lungs and the chest wall (see Pleural Disorders: Pleural Effusion). About one third of tuberculosis infections first show up as a pleural effusion. Eventually, many people with untreated tuberculosis develop shortness of breath as the infection spreads in the lungs.

In a new tuberculosis infection, the bacteria may travel from the lungs to the lymph nodes that drain the lungs. If the body's natural defenses can control the infection, it goes no further, and the bacteria become dormant. However, very young children have weaker defenses and these lymph nodes may become large enough to compress the bronchial tubes, causing a brassy cough and possibly a collapsed lung. Occasionally, bacteria spread up the lymph channels to the lymph nodes in the neck. An infection in these lymph nodes may break through the skin and discharge pus.

The kidneys and lymph nodes are probably the most common sites for tuberculosis that develops outside the lungs (extrapulmonary tuberculosis). It can also affect the bones, brain, abdominal cavity, membrane around the heart (pericardium), joints (especially weight-bearing joints, such as the hips and knees), and reproductive organs. Tuberculosis in these areas can be difficult to diagnose.

Photographs

Infectious Arthritis

Infectious Arthritis

The symptoms of extrapulmonary tuberculosis are vague, usually with fatigue, poor appetite, intermittent fevers, sweats, and possibly weight loss. Sometimes the infection causes pain or discomfort, depending on the area involved, but not always.

Tuberculosis that infects the tissues covering the brain (tuberculous meningitis) is life threatening. In the United States and other developed countries, tuberculous meningitis most commonly occurs among older people. In developing countries, tuberculous meningitis is most common among children from birth to age 5. Symptoms include fever, constant headache, neck stiffness, nausea, and drowsiness that can lead to coma. Tuberculosis also may infect the brain itself, forming a mass called a tuberculoma. The tuberculoma may cause symptoms such as headaches, seizures, or muscle weakness.

Tuberculous pericarditis is tuberculosis affecting the pericardium. This infection causes the pericardium to thicken and sometimes leak fluid into the space between the pericardium and the heart. This limits the heart's ability to pump and causes swollen neck veins and difficulty breathing.

Intestinal tuberculosis occurs mainly in developing countries. This infection may not produce any symptoms but can produce abnormal growth of tissue, which may be mistaken for cancer, at the infected area.

Diagnosis

Sometimes the first indication of tuberculosis is an abnormal chest x-ray or positive tuberculin skin test (also known as a Mantoux test or PPD for purified protein derivative), because these tests are often done as routine screening tests. When a person has symptoms that suggest tuberculosis, a chest x-ray is taken, a tuberculin skin test is performed, and a sputum sample is sent to the laboratory. The sputum sample is examined under a microscope to look for tuberculosis bacteria and used to grow the bacteria in a culture. The microscopic examination is much faster than a culture but is less accurate. Cultures do not provide results for many weeks because tuberculosis bacteria grow slowly.

Photographs

Tuberculosis

Tuberculosis

Chest x-ray findings in tuberculosis often resemble those from other diseases, so the diagnosis may depend on the results of the tuberculin skin test and examination of sputum for Mycobacterium tuberculosis. Although a tuberculin skin test is one of the most useful tests for diagnosing tuberculosis, it indicates only that an infection by the bacteria has occurred some time in the past. It does not reveal whether the infection is currently active. False-positive results can occur because of an infection with one of the close, generally harmless, relatives of tuberculosis (see Diseases Resembling TuberculosisSidebar) or by recent vaccination against tuberculosis.

Sputum usually provides an adequate sample from the lung, but occasionally a doctor may use an instrument called a bronchoscope to inspect the bronchial tubes and obtain samples of mucus or lung tissue. This procedure is most often performed when other diseases, such as lung cancer, are suspected.

When symptoms indicate the possibility of tuberculous meningitis, a doctor may need to perform a spinal tap to obtain a sample of spinal fluid for analysis. Because tuberculosis bacteria are hard to find in spinal fluid, and cultures usually take weeks, the sample is often sent for a test called polymerase chain reaction (PCR), which can detect tiny amounts of the bacteria's DNA. Although test results are available quickly, a doctor generally begins antibiotic therapy on the mere suspicion of tuberculous meningitis to prevent death and minimize brain damage.

The Tuberculin Skin Test

A tuberculin skin test is performed by injecting a small amount of protein derived from tuberculosis bacteria between the layers of the skin, usually on the forearm. About 2 days later, the injection site is checked and measured: swelling that feels firm to the touch and is larger than a certain size indicates a positive result. Redness around the site without swelling is not positive. Some people who are very ill or who have a weakened immune system may not respond to the skin test even if they are infected with tuberculosis.

What Is Miliary Tuberculosis?

A potentially life-threatening type of tuberculosis may result when a large number of the bacteria spread throughout the body by way of the bloodstream. This infection is called miliary tuberculosis because the millions of tiny lesions formed are the size of millet, the small round seeds in bird food.

Symptoms of miliary tuberculosis can be vague and difficult to identify; they include weight loss, fever, chills, weakness, general discomfort, and difficulty in breathing. Involvement of the bone marrow may cause severe anemia and other blood abnormalities, suggesting leukemia. An intermittent release of bacteria into the bloodstream from a hidden lesion may cause a fever that comes and goes, with gradual wasting of the body.

Treatment

A number of antibiotics are effective against tuberculosis. But because tuberculosis bacteria are very slow-growing, the antibiotics must be taken for a long time—usually for 6 months or longer. Treatment must be continued long after the person feels completely well; otherwise, the disease tends to relapse because it was not fully eliminated.

Most people find it difficult to remember to take their drugs every day for such a long time. Other people, for various reasons, discontinue treatment as soon as they feel better. Because of these problems, many experts recommend that people with tuberculosis receive their drugs from a health care worker. This is called Directly Observed Therapy (DOT). Because DOT ensures that the person takes every dose, DOT treatments are often shorter, and the drugs are usually given just 2 or 3 times per week.

To treat tuberculosis, two or more antibiotics with different mechanisms of action are always given, because treatment with only one drug can leave behind a few bacteria resistant to that drug. With most other bacteria, this would not be enough to cause a relapse, but people treated with only one drug develop tuberculosis resistant to that drug. A third and fourth drug are usually used during the initial, intensive phase of treatment to shorten the duration of treatment and to ensure success even if drug resistance exists at the outset.

The most commonly used antibiotics are isoniazidSome Trade Names
INH
NYDRAZID
, rifampinSome Trade Names
RIFADIN
RIMACTANE
, pyrazinamide, streptomycin, and ethambutolSome Trade Names
MYAMBUTOL
. IsoniazidSome Trade Names
INH
NYDRAZID
causes liver injury in 1 person in 10,000, resulting in nausea, vomiting, and jaundice. RifampinSome Trade Names
RIFADIN
RIMACTANE
also may injure the liver, particularly when combined with isoniazidSome Trade Names
INH
NYDRAZID
. These effects go away when the person discontinues the drug. Pyrazinamide also causes liver injury and sometimes gout. Streptomycin can damage the nerves of the inner ear, producing dizziness and slight hearing loss. EthambutolSome Trade Names
MYAMBUTOL
sometimes affects the optic nerve, causing blurred vision and decreased color perception. However, 95% of the people with tuberculosis successfully complete therapy and are cured with these drugs and do not experience any serious side effects.

There are many different combinations and dose schedules for these drugs. IsoniazidSome Trade Names
INH
NYDRAZID
, rifampinSome Trade Names
RIFADIN
RIMACTANE
, and pyrazinamide may be contained in the same capsule, reducing the number of pills a person has to take each day and reducing the chance of developing drug resistance.

Surgery to remove a portion of the lung is seldom needed if the person faithfully follows the drug treatment plan. However, surgery is sometimes needed for very drug-resistant infections and to drain pus from wherever it has accumulated. When tuberculous pericarditis causes significant restriction of the motion of the heart, the pericardium may need to be removed surgically. A tuberculoma in the brain may need to be surgically removed.

Prevention

There are two aspects of prevention: stopping the spread of disease and treating early infection before it becomes active disease.

Because tuberculosis bacteria are airborne, good ventilation with fresh air lowers the concentration of bacteria and limits their spread. Also, a germicidal ultraviolet light can be used to kill airborne tuberculosis bacteria in places where people at risk are gathered, such as homeless shelters, jails, and hospital and emergency department waiting areas.

Since tuberculosis is transmitted only by people with active disease, early recognition and treatment of active disease is one of the best ways to stop it from spreading. People with active tuberculosis should cough into a tissue to reduce the spread of bacteria, and they should remain in isolation until they are no longer coughing. After only a few days of treatment with the correct antibiotics, a person is less likely to spread the disease and usually does not need to be isolated for longer than a week or two. However, if a person works with people who are at high risk (such as young children or people with AIDS), repeated analyses of sputum samples may be needed to determine when there is no danger of transmission of the infection. Also, people who continue to cough during treatment, fail to take their drugs properly, or have drug-resistant tuberculosis may need to be isolated longer so that they do not spread the disease.

The second aspect of prevention consists of treating people with a positive tuberculin skin test who are not yet ill. The drug isoniazidSome Trade Names
INH
NYDRAZID
is very effective at stopping the infection before it becomes active disease. It is given daily for 6 to 9 months. Newer, shorter treatments use rifampinSome Trade Names
RIFADIN
RIMACTANE
plus pyrazinamide daily for 2 months or rifampinSome Trade Names
RIFADIN
RIMACTANE
alone daily for 4 months. Preventive therapy definitely benefits younger people who have a positive tuberculin skin test. It also is likely to help older people at high risk for tuberculosis (for example, people whose tuberculin skin test result recently changed from negative to positive, people who have been recently exposed, or those with a weakened immune system). The risk of toxicity from the antibiotics in older adults with long-standing dormant (latent) disease may be greater than the risk of developing tuberculosis.

A person with a positive tuberculin skin test who becomes infected with HIV is at very high risk of developing active infection; similarly, a person who takes corticosteroids has a greatly increased risk of activation of latent tuberculosis. Thus, such people usually need treatment of latent tuberculosis infection.

In much of the developing world, a vaccine called BCG is used to prevent development of serious complications, such as meningitis, in people who are at high risk of becoming infected with Mycobacterium tuberculosis. The value of BCG is the subject of debate, and the vaccine continues to be used only in countries where the likelihood of contracting tuberculosis is very high. Research is under way to develop a more effective vaccine. About 10% of people who have received BCG at birth have a positive reaction to the tuberculin skin test 15 years later, even if they are not infected with tuberculosis bacteria. However, it is common for people vaccinated at birth to incorrectly attribute a positive PPD reaction later in life to having received BCG. In most countries, tuberculosis is stigmatized and many people are reluctant to believe they have even latent infection, much less active disease.

Last reviewed/revised February 1, 2003

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2006 at 6:36pm
Hello Joel,
 
Thanks for the article.  I strongly believe we can learn from the past no matter how distant so we can avoid making unecessary mistakes in our efforts to battle this pandemic.  We may be a modern society but medically there is still so much more to understand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2006 at 8:12pm
Yes Cruiser..........exactly. Again, exactly.
 
Brings to mind an old standard; "He who does not learn from the past is condemned to relive it."
 
Anyone who says that tuberculosis is not a virus has not even read the article. I believe a medical doctor/researcher who has thought out this subject as well as has Lawrence Broxmeyer ought to be listened to. Especially one that has appeared in The Journal of Infectious Diseases as a lead author on a related subject dealing with TB and Avium. What is needed here is not a regurgitation of textbook information regarding TB and M. avium (MAC), for there is obviously more that we do not know than we know, and anyone well-published in the field will tell you so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VtDoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2006 at 8:52am

Joel refers to being published in The Journal of Infectious Diseases article.  I would like to point out that this was a single article in 2002.  The rest of his publications have been in Medical Hypotheses, a journal of speculation.  Here's what the journal's publisher (Elsevier) says about it:

 Medical Hypotheses takes a deliberately different approach to peer review. Most contemporary practice tends to discriminate against radical ideas that conflict with current theory and practice. Medical Hypotheses will publish radical ideas, so long as they are coherent and clearly expressed. Furthermore, traditional peer review can oblige authors to distort their true views to satisfy referees, and so diminish authorial responsibility and accountability. In Medical Hypotheses, the authors' responsibility for the integrity, precision and accuracy of their work is paramount. The editor sees his role as a 'chooser', not a 'changer': choosing to publish what are judged to be the best papers from those submitted.
 
This doesn't mean it's not true, but you should read the journal with your tin foil hat on, and the shades drawn, so as not to be seen by the black helicopters.Wink
 
As far as the author himself, here is New York State's denial to reinstate his revoked medical license: http://w3.health.state.ny.us/opmc/factions.nsf/0/687429e1f236927c85256a4a0047c67a/$FILE/lc151279.pdf
 
 
This article goes to the main thesis in his view on H5N1 (that it isn't the causative agent in human disease, since lots of people have had it and not been very ill): http://effectmeasure.blogspot.com/2005/12/shortridge-paper.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2006 at 12:37pm

VtDoc issues an invective against a respected journal put out by Elsevier, both the publisher of Lancet and number one publisher of medical journals in the world with a description which clearly includes:

Furthermore, traditional peer review can oblige authors to distort their true views to satisfy referees, and so diminish authorial responsibility and accountability. In Medical Hypotheses, the authors' responsibility for the integrity, precision and accuracy of their work is paramount. The editor sees his role as a 'chooser', not a 'changer': choosing to publish what are judged to be the best papers from those submitted.

I see no need for putting a "tin foil hat on".
 
And how many times has Vt.doc appeared as lead author or any author anywhere, no less JID (The Journal of Infetious Diseases)?
 
As for the paper's author, he is currently a Pennsylvania physician with an unrestricted medical license. Not that that has anything more to do with things then a Vermont doctor with who knows what kind of license.
 
One final thought. If "H5N1" is truely a virus, then how do you account for the fact that several Indonesian cases have to this point been cured by antibiotics. Doesn't make any sense, does it. I would put a " tin foil hat on" before believing that along with a million or two more for each person in CHINA who was H5N1 positive in the early 1990's yet totally asymptomatic.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VtDoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2006 at 1:42pm
If "H5N1" is truely a virus, then how do you account for the fact that several Indonesian cases have to this point been cured by antibiotics. Doesn't make any sense, does it. I would put a " tin foil hat on" before believing that along with a million or two more for each person in CHINA who was H5N1 positive in the early 1990's yet totally asymptomatic
 
The seroprevalence studies in 1992 in China show only a rate of positivity to H5, not to highly pathogenic H5N1.  This could represent H5N2, or low pathogenicity H5N1.  More recent studies do not show a high rate of seroprevalence (ie, lots of people infected but with mild symptoms or asymptomatic).  I would love to see the data you refer to that shows H5N1 patients recovering after antibiotic therapy--not because it would prove anything (since a leading killer in flu is secondary bacterial infection, I would expect a benefit in some cases from antibiotics)--but because it would be nice to see more info on specific clinical courses/interventions/outcomes that is not being well reported.  If you have some source of inside info about the details of medical treatments and responses in Asia, we'd all love to see it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2006 at 2:00pm
A colleague sent me the following from CBS news.
 
'Jakarta, Indonesia, May 26, 2006
 
"An 8-year-old girl has been released from a hospital after successful treatment for bird fle, becoming the sixth person cured of the disease in China, state media said Friday. Sun Yue showed symptomsof fever and pneumonia April 16 and was hospitalized a week later in the city of Suining in Sichuan province. Doctors used minimal antibiotics during her treatment to avoid the risk of fungal infections or "bacterial maladjustments." the xinhue News Agency said."
 
Thats all I have for now. No data. What I would love to know is which antibiotic or antibiotics were being used, but I never seriously researched it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VtDoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2006 at 9:28am
Yes, we know that only roughly half of the confirmed cases are dying, so half are surviving.  The question is, what treatment are the survivors receiving and is it helping or are they recovering on their own?  Conversely, what treatments were the fatalities receiving, and what exactly is causing their deaths?  I know of no publicly available info on this.  I assume that someone is collecting this data, and probably saving it for publication.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2006 at 12:20pm
Yes, that's for sure. Very interesting and really important.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2014 at 6:14am
"Tuberculosis is not a virus see below please....... "

Tuberculosis has viral-like cell-wall-deficient forms. Read Mattman and educate yourself, instead of quoting Wikipedia............dummy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2014 at 6:18am
From his reply, sounds like Vt.Doc has a monopoly on tin foil hats. Glad your not my Doctor, Mr. Quack.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Germ Nerdier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2014 at 6:57am
Oy you guys...

First of all, please keep text a decent size and possibly in white? I have me some ole lady eyes and this thread is killing me.

Next up, many moons ago when I went to school (think one room school house), the big T was bacterial.

Third, both sides have supported their argument-  so let's agree to disagree?

Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Germ Nerdier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2014 at 6:59am
.. or maybe it was viral?

Hey, what causes senility?

Wacko
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2014 at 8:33am
A fungus like viral bacteria, NG. Bad stuff.

"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Germ Nerdier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2014 at 9:05am
JD,

I heard of it! It's that contact airborne fomite pathogen, right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2014 at 4:20pm
"Guest". Thank you for copying a few hundred pages from Wikipedia. Obviously you know nothing about the disease. Yet you spout off like a mineral spring. Get a life and BTW, anything that is posted that is beyond 10 sentences shows total ignorance.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2014 at 5:06pm
Originally posted by VtDoc VtDoc wrote:

If "H5N1" is truely a virus, then how do you account for the fact that several Indonesian cases have to this point been cured by antibiotics. Doesn't make any sense, does it. I would put a " tin foil hat on" before believing that along with a million or two more for each person in CHINA who was H5N1 positive in the early 1990's yet totally asymptomatic
 
"The seroprevalence studies in 1992 in China show only a rate of positivity to H5, not to highly pathogenic H5N1.  This could represent H5N2, or low pathogenicity H5N1.  More recent studies do not show a high rate of seroprevalence (ie, lots of people infected but with mild symptoms or asymptomatic).  I would love to see the data you refer to that shows H5N1 patients recovering after antibiotic therapy--not because it would prove anything (since a leading killer in flu is secondary bacterial infection, I would expect a benefit in some cases from antibiotics)--but because it would be nice to see more info on specific clinical courses/interventions/outcomes that is not being well reported.  If you have some source of inside info about the details of medical treatments and responses in Asia, we'd all love to see it."


Ah, from this jumbled bit of mumbo-jumbo we know that VtDoc is a PhD in virology.......more useless than an unemployed Witch Doctor....which he surely shares certain parameters with. "H5 .....not H5N1.... but possibly H5N2 or H5N1. Hilarious.

And to top it off, his classic (for these idiots) "show me your citations because mine you will never understand." Intimidating, isn't it? Yes, about as menacing as Donald Duck.

You see, Vt "Doc's" problem is that he is convinced that he knows everything. Don't you just know.......ABSOLUTELY  everything. And of course, by the same token, EVERYTHING is a virus. Even if someone presents with "viral-like" symptoms - why of course IT'S GOT TO BE A VIRUS. Disgusting.

Vt. PhD: "since a leading killer in flu is SECONDARY bacterial infection, I would expect a benefit in some cases from antibiotics". Let's analyze the smug know-it-all complacency in this last statement. First of all, how does Vt Virus know that his "FLU" came first or is not SECONDARY to an underlying bacterial or mycobacterial infection? He can't........but he knows........yes he knows.......ITS ALL ABOUT VIRUSES. Does he understand that most "Flu" is diagnosed empirically, i.e., clinically. Does he realize that antibiotics, by his colleagues own admission, do not work against viruses. Does he realize that in every pathogenic bacteria there are ALSO "viruses". In 1990, people just like Vt. virus doctor, where responsible for deadly mini-epidemics of MDR AFB in 17 US states.........screaming "ITS THE FLU" all the way, when in fact THE FLU had nothing to do with it.........except to people just like good old Vt. Doc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2014 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by Joel Joel wrote:

One final thought. If "H5N1" is truely a virus, then how do you account for the fact that several Indonesian cases have to this point been cured by antibiotics. Doesn't make any sense, does it. I would put a " tin foil hat on" before believing that along with a million or two more for each person in CHINA who was H5N1 positive in the early 1990's yet totally asymptomatic.
 


I sincerely doubt that they were cured by antibiotics.  Sometimes people just get better, whatever they were on at the time.

Physicians often give antibiotics to viral sufferers, not to cure the viral pathogen, but prophylactically to prevent bacterial secondary infections.
How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jen147 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2014 at 6:54pm
This thread is like 8 years old.  I doubt they'll ever know how much you disagree Jack.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2014 at 3:02pm
So who is 'Vt. Doc" ?? Why of course it our own home grown Henry Niman. Here are some of the nice things said about Henry ("Dr. Nieman") in the past:

Dr. Henry Niman: Rabid Propagandist, Alarmist, Pharmaceutical Shill


http://educate-yourself.org/lte/henrynimanpharmashill27mar11.shtml
March 27, 2011

http://educate-yourself.org/lte/henrynimanpharmashill27mar11.s - Dr. Henry Niman: Rabid Propagandist, Alarmist, Pharmaceutical Shill (March 27, 2011)

Subject: Henry Niman Strikes Again!
From: Keith Howe
Date: Sun, March 27, 2011
To: Ken Adachi

Mexican H1N1 Death Cluster Raises Pandemic Concerns

Look at all the wild extrapolations and conclusions made by this bio-terrorist, fear monger, Dr. Henry Niman as he attempts to exaggerate yet another false flu threat. This guy should have any credentials as a scientist revoked and be tried for conspiracy to incite terror.

I wonder WHO pays him to write this crap?

www.recombinomics.com/News/03281101/H1N1_Juarez_Pandemic.html

Keith


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prairie One Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2014 at 3:22pm
Originally posted by John John wrote:

"Tuberculosis is not a virus see below please.......
"

Tuberculosis has viral-like cell-wall-deficient forms. Read Mattman and educate yourself, instead of quoting Wikipedia............dummy.


And your point in resurrecting this thread from 2006 is???
Interested....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2014 at 3:33pm
Come on Jack, you know niman is never right.   Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2014 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by Albert Albert wrote:

Come on Jack, you know niman is never right.   Big smile


Nope, Albert. Says below he was right at least one time in his life........  Wink

http://www.drmartinwilliams.com/h5n1-poultry-flu-and-migratory-birds/henry-niman-prophet-of-doom-for-the-internet.html


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