Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk |
CYTOKINE STORM - IMMUNE SYSTEM |
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Medclinician
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Posted: September 11 2009 at 5:59pm |
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This may be why the current Swine Flu does not effect those over 60 or less than 2 hardly at all.
Medclincian |
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parkybell
Valued Member Joined: July 30 2009 Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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Hi all the link I posted before to the swine flu guide is down. The new link is
******************* A practical guide to the home treatment of flu in a pandemic situation. This guide was written by a doctor for people taking care of mild to severely ill influenza patients in their home who have no formal medical training.*************** Edited by forum moderator: we are not allowed to have links to other flu boards, blogs or forums. Thanks for understanding! Penham
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jandressup
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If you have one foot on yesterday...and one foot on tomorrow...You are "piddling" on today!....Take time to smell the Flowers....
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Mariella1
Experienced Member Joined: April 27 2009 Location: Holland Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Me and my family are on multi-vitamines and samucol until this virus hits our aria...then we are Off itt as fast as you can imagine!
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Healwayshasaplan
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I just briefly read about the Adventis Vaccine... [first time I've heard of this] and that of all the vaccines and /or antivirals this is proven to fight the cytokine storm such as with H5N1 subtypes. Anyone else have anymore info on this? I use caution with vaccines but what I read is interesting. |
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stayinpositive
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Ironstone
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If your going to get antibiotics, you should look up the information on Erythromycin. It has some antiinflammatory sideeffects. A few studies done on it are on line.
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Ironstone
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Please don't stop taking your multi-vitamins. There is another forum thread called "Cytokine Storm" that speaks to this. If you need help finding it, just scroll to the top right had corner of the page and click, "Search". |
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The 20-40yr range was was meant initially as a guide line and, It looks like that age range may have to be re-considered. |
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40acrediesel
V.I.P. Member Joined: March 11 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 43 |
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What about taking multi-vitamins? Would it be better to quit taking them in an effort to "weaken" your immune somewhat? |
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kath18
Valued Member Joined: March 14 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1 |
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Hi
If this virus is meant to be more dangerous for those in the 20-40 age group, ie those with the best immune system, any thoughts on why the current deaths have been those of the under 20's? |
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cholesterol medicine) may also be affective for preventing the cytokine storm.(quote)
we can get that her in Canada as a spray.....towards the throat |
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Red Yeast Rice May lower elevated cholesterol and triglyceride levels. This may reduce the risk of pneumonia Warnings: “Do not take alcohol while taking red yeast rice. Possible liver problems. Do not take red yeast rice if you are at risk for liver disease, have liver disease, or have a history of liver disease; consume more than 2 alcoholic drinks per day; have a serious infection; have undergone an organ transplant; have a serious disease or medical disorder; or have recently undergone surgery. Effects on pregnant and breast-feeding patients unknown. Not recommended for people under the age of 20. Interactions: Azole antifungals (fluconazole, ketoconazole, itraconazole): Concomitant use of red yeast rice and an azole antifungal may increase the risk of myopathy. Cyclosporine: Concomitant use of red yeast rice and cyclosporine may increase the risk of myopathy. Fibrates (clofibrate, fenofibrate): Concomitant use of red yeast rice and a fibrate may increase the risk of myopathy. Gemfibrozil: Concomitant use of red yeast rice and gemfibrozil may increase the risk of myopathy. Macrolide antibiotics (clarithromycin, erythromycin): Concomitant use of red yeast rice and certain macrolide antibiotics may increase the risk of myopathy. Nefazodone: Concomitant use of red yeast rice and nefazodone may increase the risk of myopathy. Protease inhibitors (amprenavir, indinavir, nelfinavir, ritonavir, saquinavir): Concomitant use of red yeast rice and a protease inhibitor may increase the risk of myopathy. Statins (atorvastatin, cerivastatin, fluvastatin, lovastatin, pravastatin, simvastatin): Concomitant use of red yeast rice with a pharmaceutical statin may increase the risk of adverse reactions. Warfarin: Concomitant use of red yeast rice and warfarin may result in an increase in the INR as well as bleeding. Grapefruit and grapefruit juice may interact with red yeast rice. The interaction could lead to potentially dangerous effects. Adverse reactions reported, included flatulence and heartburn. Dosage: 2400mg see warnings. Take after a meal.
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http:// www.medscape.com/viewarticle/453549_3#a2 http://www.medscape.com/pages/editorial/resourcecenters/publ ic/ influenzone/rc-influenzone1 |
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Bannor/Killerflu/marzan, THANK YOU for that info. I was planning on stockpiling it only on my "hunch"alone, as I have seen what prednisone can do. NOW, hopefully more people will read the links you provided and make their decisions accordingly..... You may have saved lives.
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there's an interesting discussion on prednisolone here:
"The trick with the prednisolone re. cytokine storm…in a sense an autoimmune allergy…is large doses for short periods or time…1–3 days as the cytokine storm is also short in duration. This was the only treatment shown to be effective in treating SARS infections that also have the cytokine storm as a characteristic. " |
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As a note Prednisolone may be more useful, it is similar to prednisone but doesn’t have to be liver activated. |
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Thanks, Bannor, for giving my "hunch" a bit more credence. What drugs we all decide to stockpile is a PERSONAL choice. I have used prednisone, my daughters have used prednisone.......... I have seen what it can do. I plan on stockpiling enough for my four family members, and if the need arises, will follow the dosing instructions without worries. I also plan on supplementing with c, curcumin and quercetin. My sons lower dose steroid asthma inhalers will be his and our first line of defense. They go straight to the lungs, and someone posted on another thread, there is some medical theory that continued low dose steroids MAY have some benefit on the BF. If that fails, then we stop the inhalers.....and bring out the "Big Guns" - prednisone. I believe, as you do, this drug will have an impact on the BF. Possibly even a profound impact.
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Hi. Below was is an email conversation I had with a MD who has done a lot of work in cytokine mediated illnesses. The conversation originates at the bottom. Prednisone is about the only thing I'm thinking may be of help and if taken in just the right balance. Personally, I plan on supplementing with Vit D, E, curcumin, etc and a few things, as general practice, as well as suck a lot of zinc while flu is active in my area. The key to this thing is, as we have all said, over and over: don't get sick. Anyway: if this is of any interest: (edited and names changed)
>haven't figured out how to do so yet. No natural method works. The
>problem remains. Dr. S.
>>Hi Doc,
>>Thanks for the reply. Don't hear from me for a few years and now this >>- I don't want to wear out my welcome. Any information >>appreciated.Would there be a way to block or inhibit cytokine storm >>frommacrophages/gamma interferon, either by natural methods,
>>prescription or off-label prescription?
>>Thanks
>>Bannor
>>>the cytokine storm in viral infections primarily comes from >>>macrophages and the most common player is gamma interferon. In >>>biotoxin illnesses, the cytokines are IL-1B and TNF released by fat >>>cells. Dr.S
>>>> With all the discussion and news of a possible Avian Flu pandemic, >>>> an aspect of your work occurred to me: The Avian Flu's mortality >>>> rate seems primarily due to the occurrence of a "cytokine storm". >>>> Since the factors I've seen involved with this and those in your >>>> studies regarding inflammatory reactions relating to the use of >>>> cholestyramine appear similar, would the use of Actos or Avandia >>>> possibly be effective in reducing a cytokine storm in somebody ill >>>> with a human version of Avian Flu?
>>>> Thanks for any response you care to give and I look forward to
>>>> hearing from you. Best Regards,
>>>> Bannor |
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Killerflu, I didn't see your recommendation....alot of things get by me these days.... I have become rather scatterbrained...wonder if it's age or stress..... Prednisone MAY be a godsend for the cytokine storm. It's only a hunch I have, having seen the power of this drug firsthand. I caution all to FOLLOW the dosage instructions with any and all herbs/vitamins/drugs you stockpile. Prednisone at the foremost of the list. If you do so, then it can be used safely.
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I agree with you, but since I have a website and a book, I have to legally place that in there, so that I do not get sued, or have Uncles Sam calling again! I hear ya and understand! Remember I am the one who recommended that drug. |
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When prescribed, it tells you how to take it on the bottle.... Just follow the directions to a t...... Shouldn't be difficult. All this "prednisone is dangerous" talk is hype. ANY DRUG is dangerous if misused. Take aspirin.....improperly taken equals internal bleeding...yuck! Tylenol misuse will damage your liver.....we need a healthy one of those. Anti coagulants can cause strokes......... Prozac can make you commit suicide or kill someone else.... Take a moment and google the list of possible complications of THAT drug. WHEW! Newsflash: Zithromax(a popular antibiotic) can cause heart arrhythmias (heart doesn't beat regularly). Amoxicilian and augmentin (both antibiotics) can cause a severe intestinal bacterial infection which often requires hospitalization.... The list is endless. Prednisone is no better nor worse than any drug. The only caveat is that one must READ AND FOLLOW the dosing instructions. If someone can't or won't ......then ANY DRUG IS A DANGER TO THEM.
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I will be honest the only thing that I believe will help is excretion and elimination in combination with drugs (natural and conventional) that can help lessen the inflammation. But, it will happen too quick to do just drugs alone, you will drowned in your own blood first. I did not want to write this because it sounds so gloom, but I have had many Doc's tell me the same. And yes all these drugs need Doctor Supervision. The question is will we be able to receive any doctor care? Mostly likely not. So if anyone chooses to obtain any of these natural or otherwise drugs, they must plan ahead and speak with a professional first in order to know how to administer the drugs properly.
"Strong immune response can mount strong inflammation. Inflammation has to be resolved by excretion and elimination, not by suppression." (Jared Zeff, ND, LaC, Ivan Hosek, MD,
A Cytokine storm is not why people will die. It is failing defense mechanism, particularly low levels of lung protomorphogen (determinant factor) which allows such drastic inflammation which leads to bleeding, clotting, DIC etc.. |
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Rick, you are mistaken. Claritin is NOT prednisone. Claritin is a loratadine medication, nowhere near prednisone. As for prednisone, me and my daughters both took it when they were toddlers.........taken as prescribed, it caused my kids and I NO SIDE EFFECTS. Taking it as told is they key. Never one to listen to the docs, I stopped taking mine, cold turkey, and became sick......resumed the dosage and followed it through as the doc ordered......no problems. I LOVE THIS STUFF. Daughters and I got into some poison ivy years back.... entire sections of skin peeled off my hands, one kids' eyes swelled completely shut, the other's face swelled so completely, she only had slits for eyes and could not open her mouth at ALL. After two doses, they were at the carnival........slightly puffy, but otherwise fine. BY evening of the next day.........they were normal. Poison Ivy causes a reaction in our immune systems, as you know.........and this prednisone is fabulous. I plan on seeking out the poison ivy this spring.......and stockpiling me a few prescriptions of prednisone by summer.........it worse comes to worse, I would not hesitate to use it. I have seen what it can do and in how short a time. THIS may be a godsend. In a matter of hours, my daughter (then 4 & 6) went from having their eyes and mouth swelled completely shut, not able to speak or see they were TERRIFIED, to going to the carnival and having fun. Taken as ordered..........that is the key.
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Anti-inflammatory Effect Of Beer, Blocks Interferon-gamma-induced Chemical Processes Scientists at Innsbruck Medical University have succeeded in demonstrating the anti-inflammatory effect of beer extracts. In vitro experiments conducted at the Division of Biological Chemistry at the Innsbruck Biocenter by Prof. Dietmar Fuchs and his team on peripheral mononuclear blood cells show that beer extracts block interferon-gamma-induced chemical processes... click link for more info. more >> |
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I posted this in another section, but it may be helpful here also. New Theory Suggests Treatment For Immune Disorder Could Be Effective Against Avian Flu Infection Chemotherapy for a disorder of the immune system may, in theory, be effective against human avian influenza infection, suggest scientists in a Hypothesis published online by The Lancet.The mortality rate for avian influenza A virus subtype H5N1 infection is around 50% and there is an urgent need for novel treatments... click link for more info. more >> |
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Understanding The Connection Between Influx Of Immune Cells Into The Lung And Acute Lung Injury Understanding the connection between influx of immune cells into the lung and acute lung injury is essential, since lung damage tends to occur secondary to increased lung inflammation. In a study appearing online on February 16 in advance of print publication in the March issue of the Journal of Clinical Investigation, Klaus Ley and colleagues from the University of Virginia in Charlottesville demonstrate that expression of an immune molecule called CXCR2 on blood vessel wall cells (as opp... click link for more info. more >> |
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here's an interesting article/study re: corticosteroids and ARDS. "New evidence suggests that prolonged treatment with low-dose corticosteroids may benefit patients with unresolving ARDS through multiple pathways. ...A take-home message, said Dr. Wood, is that lower doses of steroids have what appears to be benefit, whereas higher doses seem to fail. Nevertheless, uncertainties remain. Optimum dosage levels are unclear, and there is no agreement on when to start treatment." http://www.pulmonaryreviews.com/aug03/pr_aug03_future.html
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Prednisone, a corticosteroid, is similar to a natural hormone produced by your adrenal glands. It often is used to replace this chemical when your body does not make enough of it. It relieves inflammation (swelling, heat, redness, and pain) and is used to treat certain forms of arthritis; skin, blood, kidney, eye, thyroid, and intestinal disorders (e.g., colitis); severe allergies; and asthma. Prednisone also is used with other drugs to prevent rejection of transplanted organs and to treat certain types of cancer.
Some more info: Prednisone is a corticosteroid. In contrast to anabolic steroids (used by “bodybuilders”), corticosteroids are used in inflammatory conditions for their anti–inflammatory effects. They have a rapid onset of action, and profoundly affect many parts of the immune system as well as most other body systems. Corticosteroids are a cornerstone of treating most types of vasculitis, and are often used in combination with other immunosuppressive medications. |
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I don't think so. P.S. Prendisone is a very powerful drug which must be monitored closely by a physician. |
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I was wondering if allergy drugs like claritin would help reduce this cytokine storm?
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Tansau
V.I.P. Member Joined: February 17 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 126 |
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Should H5N1 become the next pandemic strain, the resultant morbidity
and mortality could rival those of 1918, when more than half the deaths occurred among largely healthy people between 18 and 40 years of age and were caused by a virus-induced cytokine storm (see diagram) that led to the acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS).4 The ARDS-related morbidity and mortality in the pandemic of 1918 was on a different scale from those of 1957 and 1968 — a fact that highlights the importance of the virulence of the virus subtype or genotype. Clinical, epidemiologic, and laboratory evidence suggests that a pandemic caused by the current H5N1 strain would be more likely to mimic the 1918 pandemic than those that occurred more recently.5 If we translate the rate of death associated with the 1918 influenzavirus to that in the current population, there could be 1.7 million deaths in the United States and 180 million to 360 million deaths globally. We have an extremely limited armamentarium with which to handle millions of cases of ARDS — one not much different from that available to the front-line medical corps in 1918. -- Michael T. Osterholm, Ph.D., M.P.H. Preparing for the Next Pandemic http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/352/18/1839 The key element in generating the storm is an uncontrolled exuberant immune response to the virus, in which there is an outpouring of proinflammatory cytokines and chemoattractants. An animated version of this figure is available at www.nejm.org (http://content.nejm.org/cgi/ content/full/352/18/1839/DC2). |
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Well...it's kinda ambiguous...on the one hand, the mice that got fat died more, on the other hand, they didn't have a good cytokine response. The way I figure it, with the plain old flu, you need those cytokines or the flu might kill you...with the AF, you really want your body to respond just a little more slowly....so, uhm, yea....I'm gonna fatten myself like a goose...uh...pun intended. |
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calendula
Valued Member Joined: February 18 2006 Status: Offline Points: 345 |
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what does this means that I should get fat?
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I am not here to reason, I am here to create"
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The mortality rates in this study not withstanding - I think I'm going to double down on the Pizza! Slow down those cytokines and manage my prep stress all in one hot pie (make that two!) |
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re: prednisone, that's good to know. you can get it if you tell your doc that you get a bad reaction to poison oak. i think i'll try that. i've gotten it before for that reason. just tell them you're going hiking. and i found this piece of information, that's sort of related to the disussion: Science News (print edition, April 23, 2005) has an interesting piece about work presented earlier this month at the Experimental Biology meeting in San Diego by Melinda Beck and her colleagues at University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. Noticing in a recent trial that heavy people didn't derived less protection from influenza vaccine, Beck and her colleagues fed 70 female mice a normal diet and 70 an especially fattening diet for 22 weeks. They then infected each group with influenza virus. http://effectmeasure.blogspot.com/2005/05/obesity-and-influe nza.html so this might be a good time to go on that diet. |
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KillerFlu and Rick - Thanks for the excellent information. I'd like to expand on it with the symptoms of Human H5N1. High Fever (101+), Chills, Headache, Muscle Aches, Dizziness, Fatigue, Cough (severe), Sore Throat, Runny Nose, Ear Infection, Bloody Diarrhea. Nose Bleeds, Bloody Gums, Blood Tinted Sputum (copious), Chest Congestion, Difficulty Breathing, Pneumonia (viral and bacterial), Respiratory Failure, Multi-Organ Failure. The fatality rate is currently 55% even with Intensive Care Unit treatment. The time from first symptom to death is 7-10 days. If the patient survives, they should be isolated from non-sick people for 2-3 weeks after symptoms disappear. The patient should be treated as contageous and care-givers should use isolation techniques and wear appropritate protective clothing. Also, Universal Precautions (avoiding bodily fluids) should be practiced. This will be difficult since the patient will be expelling fluids from every orifice. Preppers should become familiar with the above since medical facilities will be over-capacity with patients and about 50% of the medical staff will be away sick or caring for family members. |
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I agree with you Rick!
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The jury is still out on the use of immunostimulants on mature immune systems over 40-years of age. I would suggest for those under 40-years of age to avoid anything that would stimulate cytokines. Personally I have enough Sambucol for my wife, as a first response to infection, I'm still evaluating the options for my son. |
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This is what a friend who is well known Doctor who wishes to remain anonymous wrote to me.
Generally, this entire process causes inflammation in the lungs. It’s really not much different that the inflammation you see when you cut yourself. The problem is that when you have this type of response in the lungs, they become so bogged down with fluid that the alveoli (the air sacs in the lungs) lose some of their capacity to bring in air to allow for the passage of oxygen into the capillaries. In essence, you drown very slowly. I don’t think it would be a pleasant way to go at all.
A cytokine storm is just one way to develop what is referred to as acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS). Even today with our high tech ICU care, the mortality rate from developing something like is around 40-60%. In 1918 is would have been very close to 100%. However, even though we have the technology today, we don’t have the capacity. Even if we did have enough ventilators, we wouldn’t have enough staff to run them and provide care if we had an event of the scale of 1918. I was just interviewed by a reporter from the NY Times this week about this issue.
My notes: As a note the side effects of a Cytokine storm is what will kill you. The failing defense mechanism, particularly low levels of lung protomorphogen (determinant factor) which allows such drastic inflammation which leads to bleeding, clotting, DIC etc.. Edited by KillerFlu.net |
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You may be interested in knowing that many if not all of the cholesterol lowering drugs are derived and or work like a natural drug called RED YEAST RICE. (same or similar statins) As a substance, red yeast rice extract has a number of heart-healthy benefits: It seems to help reduce total cholesterol levels, lower levels of LDL ("bad") cholesterol, increase levels of HDL ("good") cholesterol, and lower levels of unhealthy fats called triglycerides. It appears to accomplish this by restricting the liver's production of cholesterol. The compound responsible for this effect--mevinolin--is chemically identical to the cholesterol-lowering compound lovastatin, which is sold as the prescription drug Mevacor. Hence the action by the FDA. Mevinolin is also similar to the active ingredients in other cholesterol medications such as Zocor (simvastatin) and Lipitor (atorvastatin). Unsaturated fatty acids in red yeast rice extract are also believed to be beneficial, possibly by lowering triglycerides. Edited by KillerFlu.net |
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I originally invested a lot of money into immune system boosters until I learned about this. I heard that statin drugs such as Lipitor (cholesterol medicine) may also be affective for preventing the cytokine storm. Other natural experimental remedies are Curcumin and Inosine. |
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Hope that this helps, I will gather more info and post later.
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I also found this that may help: Corticosteroids Anti-Viral Infectives: Neuraminidase Inhibitors Emodin Cranberry NDM Elderberry / Sambucol It has been pointed out that black elderberry does not just increase TNF and other cytokines. It also may reduce the spread of the virus through inactivation, or exert anti-inflammatory effects as well as contributing to the cytokine storm. It may be that combining elberberry with other anti-inflammatories may allow it to check the infection without producing tissue destroying levels of cytokines. But there is insufficient evidence to make a solid conclusion, while there are significant red flags that should be raised about the mode of action of elderberry. Chocolate There are many other compounds that modulate the immune system and which may be of benefit in treating avian flu: a few include melatonin, garlic, green tea, and ginger. This paper will be expanded to include discussion of these over the next weeks. Conclusions info found at: http://www.med-owl.com/health/H5N1-Virus-Therapy.html Edited by KillerFlu.net |
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A drug that can combat cytokines storm is prednisone, however many will not have the ability to receive this drug. So you may want to know that research from the University of Texas and the National Institute of Health, it was reported that the use of a lei gong teng preparation showed that the herb has anti-inflammatory and immunosuppressive effect comparable to prednisone. Lei gong teng (radix tripterygii wilfordii) is a native plant that grows in many parts of Author: Shoba G, Joy D, Joseph T, Majeed M, Rajendran R, Srinivas PS The medicinal properties of curcurnin obtained from Curcuma longa L. cannot be utilized because of poor bioavailability due to its rapid metabolism in the liver and intestinal wall. In this study, the effect of combining piperine, a known inhibitor of hepatic and intestinal glucuronidation, was evaluated on the bioavailability of curcumin in rats and healthy human volunteers. When curcumin was given alone, in the dose 2 g/kg to rats, moderate serum concentrations were achieved over a period of 4 h. Concomitant administration of piperine 20 mg/kg increased the serum concentration of curcumin for a short period of 1-2 h post drug. Time to maximum was significantly increased (P < 0.02) while elimination half life and clearance significantly decreased (P < 0.02), and the bioavailability was increased by 154%. On the other hand in humans after a dose of 2 g curcumin alone, serum levels were either undetectable or very low. Concomitant administration of piperine 20 mg produced much higher concentrations from 0.25 to 1 h post drug (P < 0.01 at 0.25 and 0.5 h; P < 0.001 at 1 h), the increase in bioavailability was 2000%. The study shows that in the dosages used, piperine enhances the serum concentration, extent of absorption and bioavailability of curcumin in both rats and humans with no adverse effects. Edited by KillerFlu.net |
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