Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk |
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Thomas Angel
V.I.P. Member Joined: February 16 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 622 |
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Posted: February 17 2006 at 10:45am |
I have a little time this morning to share with you all, so here goes: First a few notes on the BOB's. If you put together everything I posted on that list (BOB's) the combined weight is about 80 lbs. excluding rifle, sidearm and body armour. 1000 rounds of SKS ammo 7.62x39mm weighs 17-20 kg depending on the type you purchase. .380 or 9mm ammo is quite a bit lighter in comparision but it's still heavy stuff. You have to be in excellent shape to pack this around. We chose the SKS-AK47 as weapons for several reasons ( the SKS being the preferred choice) as the cleaning kit fits into the stock butt and the rod under the barrel, making it self-contained. Purchase price of the weapon (SKS- between 150 and 300 dollars ) is cheap in comparision to AR's, etc., and the ammunition is much cheaper also. As far as dependabilty goes, the SKS and AK 47 aren't manufactured to such close tolerances as other weapons and this increases dependability in field or combat conditions. Some buddies of mine had a AK-47 that we fired over 500,000 rounds of ammo through without ever cleaning the weapon ( as an experiment). It never jammed. We did have to literally kick the bolt open from time to time to load the weapon if it "sat" for very long, but it always functioned properly once you chambered the first round and fired it. The SKS is very similar in respect to it's abilty to withstand abuse and continue operating. You can literally detach the mag out of an SKS and throw it over a semi-tractor trailer, go to the other side, pick it up, load a magazine into it and it will fire. You can bury them in freezing mud, rod the barrel, load a magazine and it will fire. I know of no other weapons on earth that can stand that kind of abuse. They also have a distinctive sound when fired, much different than any other rifle, which allows us to recognize friend from foe ( 90 percent of the time) at a distance just from the sound of the weapon being fired. We split our BOB's down into two parts, two seperate entities -rucksucks and packs, one large and one small. Half of the ammo, magazines and then the minimum gear and supplies per the rucksack for tactical operations such as assaults, recons, and patrols. You drop the pack, and take the rucksack along with you until the assault/patrol/recon is finished and you can get back to your pack which you have hidden well or is being guarded by one your unit members. Essentially, the BOB's should contain enough to get through the time it takes to either recover your defensive position, move to secondary and tritiary caches of supplies, or resupply. You have to figure the odds of your sitting in a defensive postion from beginning to end is not realistic. Once "others" figure out that you are surviving in a set position and defending it like a mother defends her child from wild wolves you will be assaulted. Some other add-ons to this post:
The chances of being literally burned out of your postion are good as fire is going to one of the weapons of choice when the ammo runs out or as a preventative measure by people intent on securing their position or as a means to clear areas for fields of fire.
Do not put all your "eggs" in one basket. Have several caches for supplies in different positons. make sure they are well hidden or well defended. Cut every females hair. Make them look like men if you hope to avoid having them raped in front of you. There will be people out there looking for women and if they peer through their 10x50's and see the long tressses and skirts you are leaving yourselves open in a major way. Their hair will grow back later. Do nothing to attract attention. No noise, no fires, smoke, lights. Talk softly and quietly. Tape down your rifle swivels on the slings and secure the items in your packs and rucksacks so that when you are moving you can do so without any noise being produced. Anything "shiny", things that can cause reflection, will give your postion away just as surely as if you send up a flare. If your dog barks, dispatch it it to dog heaven or train it not to bark or growl. Teach it come to you and get your attention when it detects movement or sounds of approach. Generators...If you must you use one dig a pit and put the damn thing down in it. Eight to ten feet is about right. Most of the sound will be absorbed and what isn't will be directed upwards not outwards. Raw earth absorbs sound, concrete reflects it... My personal view on generators is that they will be useful after the fact, not during. Movement: Restrict your movement to the darkest hours and coordinate your ETD and ETA with your unit members. Once you are out there "past the wire", you're subject to be confused and mistaken with "others" unless you have things worked out beforehand. Humans have an acute sense of smell, better than you probably realize. Cooking anything is a risk if it involves odors. It's bettter to eat a cold can of P&beans and munch dry crackers than to fry up some pork shoulder and bake bread. I remember taking a walk pre-dawn this last summer and coulds detect someone making "johnny-cakes" four city blocks before I followed my nose and found the place... All fuels create odors when burned. Diesel, propane, kerosense, petrol, even candle wax. Bear this in mind above everything else I post here on this site: There are people like myself who are way ahead of you on these matters and when it gets rough, when we run out of something or have need of something we are going to come looking for it and the "costs" of acquiring it means nothing to us for we are going to survive this Superflu no matter what. We are going to be taking care of ourselves, not you and yours. Pay attention to what I write here. I am trying to give you an edge so that you, if your smart enough to retain what I say here and put it to practice, just may come through this. Edited by Thomas Angel |
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Thomas Angel
V.I.P. Member Joined: February 16 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 622 |
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You are going to have to scare people to get them moving. The reality of this situation dictates a certain "spookiness" factor. A very wise person told me once that you should always expect and prepare for the worst in any situation if you hope to survive through it. What I post here is food for thought, and I would advise everyone to pull up a chair to the table and help themselves to a major portion. People are going to act much worse than anything I posted, trust me. When there is no law enforcement to stop them....Imagine Denver for a minute...What, a million and half people with no food, water, medicine, and most importantly out of hope and scared witless? You think for a moment that there's going to be a safe "farm" or ranch within 300 miles of Denver when those people spill forth like the plague itself? LOL, unless you a couple of BAR's belt-fed and a million rounds of ammo...Let's not kid ourselves here or anyone else that hits this site. I don't care how many buddies you might have in your immediate vicinity out there some rural area, that you have seen the bear, or that you know a few tricks. Chances are pretty good that any unit with military training and good leadership will lead an assault on your postion that will leave you all dead or licking some very serious wounds. I have been in war zones. I know what humans are capable of when they have not eaten for three or four days or are near deaths door from lack of water. It's not anything pretty except in terms of being pretty horrific. The only way I survived for over a year in the Balkans during the height of that conflict had nothing to do with being nice and polite. I am a USMC Major (Ret.) with six covert combat missions other than the Balkans under my belt. AND, Ladies and Gentlemen, even I am scared. Something Very Wicked this way Comes. Edited by Thomas Angel |
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TNbebo408
Adviser Group Joined: December 10 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 295 |
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Thomas Angel, your last sentence gives weight to my point. Fear not flu, will be our biggest danger.
We can shield ourselves from the flu to a point, but there is no way to control fear of the unknown. |
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bruss01
Adviser Group Joined: January 12 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 448 |
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Which version was that, for the PS2 or the GameCube? I'm sorry, but most people here have a little trouble believing that anyone who took responsibilty for themselves and others and held a position of leadership in the real world, rather than in fantasyland, would make the kind of statements we have heard recently. At least, not without needing some serious counselling. I also find it difficult to believe that a USMC Major (ret.) would command a paramilitary group using SKS rifles, advocate taking out unidentified people approaching his encampment from 400m, and clearing a radius of that diameter around his "base" regardless of private property owned or occupied by others, "by whatever means necessary" as a preventative measure. We are talking about the real world here, and your posts seem to be increasingly distancing you from that world. Please consider whether this is the apropriate forum for the topics you seem intent on discussing. Thank you. Edited by bruss01 |
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TNbebo408
Adviser Group Joined: December 10 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 295 |
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Bruss, dead on. And I really agree about the SKS bit, a fine weapon in it's day, but to hit the broadside of a cow with one at 400 meters, is about the limit of it's capability.
Might as well have a good flip and a pile of marbles to flip at the evil doers, that may be on the way to help you. |
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Well, I was gonna stay out of this but the more I thought about it the more I decided I couldn't. Thomas, first of all I welcome you to our board. A board dedicated to furthering our chances of surviving a pandemic. Your post chilled me to the bone. I found it disturbing on several levels but I will only address one. I know a number of Spec Ops and a few genuine "shooters" and I was deeply saddened that you would hang this vision of horror over them. I have personally found them to be patriots and men of unquestioned honor. One of the main reasons they do what they do is because of their overly developed sense of right and wrong, and what you described is just plain wrong. Now, having said that, I am willing to assume that you posted the above for effect. To get us to think outside the box. I can accept that, and even appreciate it on a certain level. But I would ask that you refrain from tainting the true heroes of our country and our liberty with something that you hold as a personal opinion of what you might do. TIA, Debi |
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mightymouse
Valued Member Joined: January 27 2006 Status: Offline Points: 487 |
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Cookies & milk anyone. Hopefully, very hopefully things wont get this bad. But the world can be a cruel and nasty place. The above posts really make you think. CHECK PLEASE!
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Nothing matters - Therefore everything matters
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For clarity's sake.... my post was in response to Thomas' UNEDITED post. Thanks to quick action on the part of Bebo & Bruss the exposure to other board members was limited. |
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Thomas Angel
V.I.P. Member Joined: February 16 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 622 |
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Well, let me address this entire pile of responses with a single post. The post was definitely designed to get all of you thinking outside the boxes you are thinking in. It was meant to be hard down. I really would like to see some percentage of the population come through this intact, preferably a few communities in their entirety. In order to achieve that goal people have to realize that there are going to be people out there whacked out on drugs, criminally inclined, and morally absent -completely devoid of any human compassion and without fear of later retribution by any legal system. We all saw what happened in the Aftermath of Katrina. To date not a single person has been charged or arrested in the assaults, murders and rapes that ocurred there. There are thousands of sex-offenders scattered all over the United States that haven't reported in to the authorities and are doing god only knows what, wherever they are. Crime rates are up expotentially in every city that "refugees" fled to or wound up in due to the number of criminally bent gang members settling down and getting back to "business as usual" in these new locations. Do you not think that their associates and people of like mindsets didn't/haven't taken notice of these things, that they haven't said to themselves and each other "look what we got away with", and that others haven't recognized these facts? What evilness will befall us all when it breaks down completely? And there are worse people waiting in the wings of the darkness out there. I want you all to consider that as you are planning your survival, that's all. It would be different if we didn't live in a society that harbors and enables these types of people to live amoung us normal people who value life and liberty and have a moral compass with which we use to navigate our lives. It was pretty simple. I wanted to wake you up and make you consider some things that were/are to0 horrible for most ofyou to wrap your minds around without some prodding. That's what I do. It's called advance planning towards worst case senarios. Many of you never heard or read about the history of Vlad Tepes, aka Vlad the Impaler. At one point it is said he had thousands of his enemies (Turks) beheaded during torture and placed on pikes, creating a virtual forest of decomposing skulls for the oncoming Turkisk armies to encounter as a deterent to attacking him. History said this tactic worked quite well. I could have posted I intend to do the same thing ( which would be bullsh*t) to keep people at a distance, but no...I held my tongue, figuring that the picture I painted was bad enough to grab you by the shoulders and give you a good shaking as it was. There are people in the world that wouldn't hesitate to act like Vlad if given the opportunity, and this, this coming Plague will do just that. That is the reality of this situation. Regarding the part in the post(s)/thread about weapons: the SKS is a fine, general combat weapon. Put a scope one and rest assurred with a minimum amount of practice targets at 400 metres are no problem whatsoever unless you're blind. I realize that there are those of you who never had to put together units of men and women ie: organize quickly and economically, and so have made some different choices in regard to weaponry. That's cool. Like I stated in my posts concerning the issue of weapons, there were valid reasons why we made the choices we made when we made the decisions regarding weaponry. And...Semper Fi. I don't know how many of you have sat down and read the book "The Stand", by Stephen King. But, I think you all should. There is as much evil in the world as there is good and you ignore that at you're own peril. Something Very Wicked this way Comes. Edited by Thomas Angel |
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Thomas, thank you for your points of clarification. |
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gypsybeach1
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If i remember correctly, the evil in the stand was
beaten by it's own insanity. A nuclear bomb brought in by a member of the "walking dude"'s tribe. tammy |
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AuntBones
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I have to agree with Thomas...something wicked this way comes.
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corky52
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Question becomes how far will any group go to ensure it's own survival? Good people with good intentions can be just as mean and deadly as criminals and butchers! Peoples visions of how things will be says as much about them as it does about the world. People like Thomas scare me more than the criminals, them I already know what to expect and when to expect it. Survival experts are experts in THEIR OWN survival and not really concerned with mine. The Postman had a term for the Holnists, it became a swear word! Something wicked this way comes and and it's not only the Avian Flu! |
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How far will anybody or any group go to for its survival...will and once avian goes H2H..will there be wars...we know there will be famine and more disease(because of unsanitary conditions)..and with lack of full medical care...I can handle the thought of the avian flu..I just cannot handle the thoughts of children walking down the street in hunger and tears..losing their parents to the avian flu..how many deaths will occur in homes and go unnoticed... And if we add to the mixture war....I cannot even fathom... |
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I eat evil people for lunch. Thomas, if your scenario happens, I want you on my team! This has got be to be one of the more entertaining threads... Too funny. Thomas, what about hand to hand combat - No weapons?
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Thomas Angel
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I live in a city of 400,000 in the Midwest. If you visit the 'established" cemetaries here, actually walk through them and see the dates on the markers it's enough to break your heart and scare you to death all in the moment when that dawn of realization washes over you. Close to 10 percent of the gravemarkers bear the year 1918, and that was almost 90 years ago. This H5N1 is going to rip some huge holes in the fabric of society, if it doesn't shred it completely. We would be fools to not consider that as being the likely end run result...Even more foolish not to attempt to do everything we can for ourselves and families in light of what we know. Few of you know that I have a three year-old daughter and several others from 26 on down. Of course I have talked to the older girls about this matter, but the youngest one, Gudrun...well, that tears at me in way there is never going to be words for. |
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Thomas, While your scenario certainly is within the realm of possibility, it is on the far,far end of the scale. Society didn't nearly come apart in 1918. Were there rough spots and rough times? You betcha. But nothing like the fabric ripping. That being said, we are a totally different society today and a comparison is next to useless IMO. |
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mightymouse
Valued Member Joined: January 27 2006 Status: Offline Points: 487 |
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Thomas- Interesting stuff. I would assume that in today's world where most people don't even know their own neighbors that every house will start out as it's own island, but those 'home alone' will quickly realize that in order to survive long term a 'community' must be developed - starting with neighbors and working up from there. Of course, this is predicated upon surviving the BF in the first place, and also the collapse of government both high up, state, county, and locally. Also - people will eventually realize they need to share resources in order to survive, and to band together to control the 'bad apples' of society. Is this assumption valid? I guess some areas will go one way and some another. Speaking of Vlad - a dinner guest of his complained about the smell of the surrounding rotting bodies - and guess what - Vlad had him impaled live and he became the evenings entertainment. Seems noone else complained a bit about anything after that. Also isn't that where the legend of Dracula first got started?
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TNbebo408
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Once upon a time when the dark death arrived, come some to the hills prepared to SURVIVE. Weapons and tactics they had many, but they didn't know the skills of the enemy.
They advance to their target without any crap, only to learn this place is a trap. Their plan to rape, pilage and plunder is in trouble now, from neath the rocks comes thunder. They came with visions of a wonderful victory, till from every tree came out a hillbilly. Their leader thought it was a laughable sight, till he felt the bullet from his rear right. Their leader has fell to these rednecks from HELL. All of a sudden this group is lost, to bullets from men, with small Hick thoughts. What can be done to win this great fight, best they do is run before night. |
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mightymouse
Valued Member Joined: January 27 2006 Status: Offline Points: 487 |
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TNbebop- From my experience people in cities are scared to death of the country. It is an unknown entity and therefore to be avoided. ITSHTF they will stay in the city and feed on each other. An 'animal' stays in it's own territory. Those 'blustery' ones that think the 'country hicks' are 'nummer that a rubber boot' and venture outside their territory will be in for quite a surprise. I grew up in the mountains of NH where 'Live Free Or Die' is taken seriously (except by the people from Masshole that move there). |
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TNbebo408
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Yes Mighty Mouse, surprise surprise surprise would be correct. Same thing would happen to us, if we were dumb enough to go in a city.
I know what would happen to bands of paramilitary units here. They wouldn't last long enough for water to boil on a hot fire. |
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Hmmm... Bebo & MM both address equally valid assumptions. Two sides of the same coin as it were. I generally lean to Bebo's version thought... city folk will pour out of the cities. At first it will be the families of people with enough money to pick up and leave. Spouses and children will be sent to relatives in a safer location. Next, the wave of those who see that a city habitat is untenable, they will leave, hopefully to family in a better location. Next, people that wake up one morning and go "Oh sh!t!" I gotta get out of here. Then there will be the desperate, hungry, scared wave. They will have no plan & no clue. And last, but not least, the animals who will look to profit (whatever their idea of profit is) from the situation. The predators. The marauders. |
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corky52
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How about I walk up in plain view and want to trade? Would you guy's hold driving a beat-up old Suzuki Samurai against me?
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TNbebo408
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Why HELL no, if it walks like a duck, and TALKS like a duck it may be a duck.
Beat up trucks are the norm here. We got a bunch of crawlers around now. And cab trucks, we love to tear stuff apart and FIX it for our uses. |
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corky52
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How about some avocados, oranges and lemons for a bladder full of that spring water of yours?
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TNbebo408
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Do you want spring water or Processed spring water? The processed will be in SHORT supply, it takes a LOT of sugar for the processing.
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corky52
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How about a small jar of the processed and a 60 gallon bladder of the straight spring water? I learned about that processed spring water when I lived in Memphis, a little goes a long, long way! I could even find a few limes when my neighbor wasn't looking. What floats well in the processed water? |
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mightymouse
Valued Member Joined: January 27 2006 Status: Offline Points: 487 |
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SZ - you've got a point and certainly those with 'contacts' outside the cities will probably go there, but what if you don't know anybody - look at other countries in times of great needs. People head to the cities instead of the other way around. All the Govt's resources will be directed at maintaining order, and providing food and services to larger metro areas. People in the city will stand in line all day for a potato rather than venture into the great unknown and get eatin by the rumored dreaded 4' rats that eat you feet first so you can't run away. In my opinion people will stay close to home and take their chances. Look at Katrina. Only the ones that planned ahead left. The rest - lost bigtime. Why do people think that the Government is like one big (rhymes with fit), and will take care of you no matter what?
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Nothing matters - Therefore everything matters
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TNbebo - sounds to me like you may have a partership with Corn - and a way to make few extra sheckles should a pandemic occur. Anything that you can drink or pour in a fuel tank and viruses don't like it . . . sounds like I want to buy some stock.
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TNbebo408
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We need some copper sheets, rivets, worm and a thump keg, and a good forty model Ford to haul it in.
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Thomas, I'm a UFC mixed martial arts enthusiast. Although I don't know much about weapons, I think I could submit just about anyone. And no I won't "send my cat to heaven" if it makes any noise! SZ might give her pup a one way ticket though, but not me. |
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TNbebo408
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Albert you need to give that cat, a good drink of processed spring water, he will sleep it off in a few hours.
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Albert, I take GREAT offense to your inference that I would dispatch one or all of my four legged children....now, you on the other hand...... |
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Left Field
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Angel who is the distributor for the AK-47, like you, i don't trust anyone.
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There is a series on the science channel called "survivor man". It's a documentary in which they place one person (a survivalist) in the middle of the wilderness with nothing but the clothes on his back to try and survive. The survivalist brings his own video camera to record each episode. It's very interesting. Living off of the land can actually be quite difficult in certain geographic areas.
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Thomas Angel
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I would pause and do the following math problem though: 500-1500 dollars = one AK47 150-300 dollars = one SKS or 450-900 for three, 900 to 1500 for five or six. High capacity mags for the SKS cost much less also. The "tang" is a pain in the ass of course but then I've never inserted one backwards in the dark into an SKS, lol, and they aren't bright orange either, lol. If you have more than just yourself to arm the SKS makes better sense. Plus, that's a lot of spare parts for weapons ( everything interchanges because of the tolerances in the manufacturing of them). A bolt assembly for an SKS made in Yugoslavia can be exchanged for a damaged one in a rifle made in China. |
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LF, If you are new to guns PLEASE read Bruss' awesome information about picking out a weapon for personal protection. Also, please sit down and give lengthily consideration to the use and environment you will be deploying your chosen weapon. And last but not least: TAKE A FIREARMS SAFETY CLASS. |
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Thomas Angel
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Pets, as far as that goes, I haven't viewed cannines as anything but "tools" since my last Rottie got shot and my last G-S was poisoned. I have a cat, and yes, when it's time to move along I'll make sure he's buried, instead of eaten by someone later on. |
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Thiomasangel, Do you need a federal license fro the ak47? |
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Thomas Angel
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I don't have to use much imagination to see where that was going if the "calvary" was absent from the equation, and it's not very pretty. Half of the nation is on anti-depressants...imagine the lot of them off their meds within 30 days... |
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Thomas Angel
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I love there I wuz stories, knee deep in hand grenade pins and spent brass and all I had left was my . . . I need a few beers in me though now a days, I am to the age where I personally can't remember which lie I told last - very important when you swap war stories with the same people all the time. Most people that have been places don't talk much about it. I will raise a glass to those who have and say a prayer for those that do. If there are others who read this who have the same thought then my raised glass is to you as well. I won't forget - especially MSG Gary Gordon - SFQC course class 8-80P, and all the others on the wall in the John F Kennedy Center for Military Assistance. De Oppresso Liber |
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"The problem there with MA's is that you actually have to touch someone....And screw that." Not that it matters, but I was referring to "MMA", which is "mixed" martial arts. It's primarily a combination of just wrestling and boxing. |
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Thomas Angel
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For those of you "home alone" or out in the field covering your own butt, you might consider purchasing several of the body alarms powered by 9 volt batteries and a couple spools of monofiliment fishing line 20 lb test or better. A roll of duct tape comes in handy for securing the alarms to whatever they need securing to and you can buy brown, green or even cammo tape so it doesn't stand out in the environment. Figure out what you need for a perimeter, string the line up from point to point about 16 inches high off the ground level, attach it to the "fixed" body alarm's pin so that that anyone or anything that pulls the line pulls the pin and lets the alarm rip. Not only will this allow you a bit of time to get your "act" together, it will distract the hell out of anyone who trips the wire. It's a cheap way ( the alarms cost about 10 dollars each) to get in a decent nights sleep when you need it the most. A note here: buy four alarms, and put one in each corner of your perimeter and orient yourself with their position. When they go off you'll know which sector has been breeched and which direction trouble is coming from. Additional pins can be made with a set of pliers and appropriate gauged wire. You may need them if you want to shut the alarm up and can't locate the original pin immediately. You can use the line over and over again. |
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I LIKE SCARY RIDES
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SuperDuperFlu
V.I.P. Member Joined: February 20 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 20 |
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Why don't we just shoot everyone that comes within 100 miles of our propery while where at it.
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