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Survival Gold and/or Silver

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    Posted: December 26 2008 at 7:04pm
Ok guys, when paper money is not worth anything will gold and silver take the place of paper money?

IF gold and silver will take the place of paper money what type of gold and silver should one have on hand??

Gold and silver ingots, gold and silver coins...other?? If other people do not have gold and silver how will change be made. I know that in the "old days" that gold coin was split into 8 pieces...pieces of eight! But what will happen in VERY BAD times?

Does anyone have a good idea as to what type of gold and silver to own?
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The top piece is from the Washington mining district, California,
and the bottom two are from Victoria, Australia.
The photos were taken at the Natural History Museum in London.
 
 
 
 
The Fear Bubble: Treasuries and Gold
by: Mark Caffee
 
December 17, 2008
 
These days, the only thing I know for sure is that fear is as overbought as ever. This is starting to get ridiculous: 30-year treasuries below 3%; gold up for the year; and risk averse investors paying Uncle Sam for the right to carry his wallet.
 
Before I try to explain my position, let's just say I have a healthy dose of skepticism by all things spewed by insiders, lawmakers, central bankers, and media types.
The two ongoing fear trades are treasuries and gold, and both have had a very good 2008.
 
It's not rocket science to say they should have a very difficult 2009. At some point, people will tire of being afraid. And when......and I mean 'when'...this trade reverses, the pain will be very bad. I understand the central bankers have entered a new paradigm of 0% fed funds, but what are real rates? And real rates are possibly scary high; in fact...maybe...contracting monumentally.
 
What is the Federal Reserve running from? With the proverbial kitchen sink action today, is the Fed fighting a full scale deflation war? Gold looks very vulnerable and deflation is a huge risk to this metal.
Platinum, silver, and copper have all seen the light that is deflation, but gold continues to whistle by the graveyard.
 
Now, treasuries could be the most vulnerable, and I would stay very clear except for a very short hedge. But gold........I can't see where treasuries and gold co-exist as best in show. Somebody owns a worthless ticket, maybe two worthless tickets. All commodities are down 30-60% for the year except for gold. Oh yea....it's a conspiracy.
 
If you believe in 'the small investor is always wrong' then try and buy some gold on your street corner. In fact, I hear gold prospecting is making a new comeback.
I understand the re-inflation trade. Worldwide central banker intervention, government stimulus packages, bailouts upon bailouts, but gold investors have already been paid.
 
That trade is over, we are in recession or depression, and asset values fall unless you own gold. The top in gold is being delivered by the marginal buyer - the fear buyer. And the fear bubble is about to pop! It's time to be long risk and short safety.
 
Gold bugs should know that when the world sees it their way, it must be the wrong way. I'm looking to short gold, but waiting for a technical breakdown. Gold as part of a diversified portfolio is good, but I would prefer SLV over GLD.
 
Looking to short GLD or buy puts on GLD
Disclosure: Author holds a long position in UYG, no position in SLV or GLD.
 
source
 
............................................................................
 
 

Are Gold and Silver in a Bubble Market?

 

by Gary North

 
excerpt-
 
...Gold is not a recession hedge. It is an asset that can be sold to raise funds in a crisis. It gets sold in recessions because people want to raise cash. Selling any asset is a way to raise cash. Gold is not under any king's-X safety umbrella.

Silver is even less protected from recession-induced sales, which is why silver's price is more volatile than gold's. It has no central banks buying it during recessions. Meanwhile, demand slows because the economy is slowing. Silver is an industrial metal and to a lesser extent an ornamental metal. Demand for most metals falls when the economy goes into recession.

There is a longtime myth of gold that has been popular in every pre-recession period. Recent buyers console themselves by saying: "Gold did not fall during the Great Depression. It went up." In the 1930s, the U.S. was still on the gold standard internationally. By law, the U.S. government bought gold from gold mines at $35/oz. So, the gold market had a legal floor.

That policy ended on August 15, 1971, when Nixon unilaterally took the United States off the international gold standard. So, the experience of the Great Depression is economically irrelevant to today's gold market. Central banks may buy gold or they may not, but they are not compelled by law to buy it. All we can say with confidence is that they will not buy silver, which is no longer a money metal.

Gold fell in the 1974/75 recession. Then it rose in the Carter-era inflation. Then it fell by 50% in the 1980/81 recession. Then it fell in 2000 prior to the 2001 recession.

My point is that gold, as an inflation hedge when price inflation exceeds what the experts have forecast, should not be regarded by investors as a universal solution to the gyrations of Federal Reserve monetary policy.

Silver is even less of a hedge. It has been de-monetized, so it is even more a captive of the overall economy.

The FED is trapped long-term in a policy of "inflate or die." It is committed to the absurd premise that a committee of academic economists (FOMC) is a better source of monetary policy than the free market. The FED has created a boom economy – i.e., a universal bubble economy - through the constant expansion of money. Like addicts, investors, consumers, and debt-issuing governments demand ever-more money from the Federal Reserve. Everyone has factored in 2% to 4% monetary depreciation. If the FED fails to provide this, the entire debt pyramid is threatened with collapse.

So, we find that the FED does not stabilize money. It expands the money supply at varying rates. Sometimes this expansion is insufficient to goose the economy into more growth. The economy then falls into recession. The FED's response is always the same: create even more money.

This process of varying rates of monetary expansion does not immunize gold and silver from wide swings in price. In the case of the period 1980 to 2001, the contraction wiped out 90% of investors’ asset value, if you factor in the 50% loss of the dollar’s purchasing power.

please read entire article here-
 
 
...........
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Great Info Mary08...so it looks like do not buy. Interesting!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suzi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 26 2008 at 11:29pm
Is this Rushdooney's Gary North?
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another opinion... back in 2007
 
source

What's waiting for gold and silver? A spike and then a collapse?
Karen Zuba
Mar. 12, 2007

The gold and silver futures charts manifest build up of potential energies to move up in a sudden and final bull move to unprecedented levels. Geopolitical hot spots are clear – Iran and North Korea. But the fact that oil fell below $60 a barrel and gold is showing signs for explosive moves raises the concern there may more than just Iranian nuke issue.

The gold market is looking at the risk of the global financial systems. If the world is faced with deep deflation and potential collapse in economies, a financial meltdown is possible. During financial meltdowns, banks go bankrupt, financial institutions evaporate overnight. That kind of stuff we never saw since 1930s. But the current bubble bursts in dot com, real estate, mortgage lending and potential bubble bursts in energy, merger acquisitions and industrial metals are raising the risk of a total collapse of the financial system. Never the world saw so many bubbles form and burst sequentially!

In that case, as the world financial meltdown takes place, gold can shoot to levels unimaginable as people from the main street go after throwing the cash to grab the metal. After a while though, the deflation will get to gold too. The gold and silver prices can spike high and then finally form a top and collapse.

What is also significant is the fact that in most cases when financial collapse happens, Governments ban owning gold to protect its currency. That can create a collapse in gold and silver prices too!

Interestingly, as the financial meltdown takes place, it will give rise to another bubble in precious metals and then another bubble burst in the same!

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Governments ban owning gold to protect its currency.
.......................................................................................
Not now days...
 
...on August 15, 1971, when Nixon unilaterally took the United States off the international gold standard.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cgh18 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2008 at 5:42am
   There is more than one way to look at it. Odd, some of the people that "didn't see it coming" are now telling you how to invest. The way the Fed is printing money and racking up large debts in doing so now want you to stay the course. Here is an alternate way to look at things.
   
   Owning a little precious metal is just a way of not having all your eggs in one basket.

http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_08/hamilton122608.html

cgh
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LaRo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2008 at 10:28am
Well let's take a look at the federal reserve.  They print all the dollars they want and they create this money out of thin air.  Of course, they would tell you gold is not a good investment, since they want you to be forever dependent on monopoly money.  But let's take a closer look at them, They have 25% of the world's gold stasched in a vault under the NY Federal Reserve Bldg.  If it has so little value, why are they hording it?  Remember this is the gold that americans owned before 1934 when it became illigal to own gold, but not for the federal reserve.

Everyone you ask will have a different view on this matter, so it's up to you to sort it out.  Gold is universal money, if it wasn't money, the federal reserve would store lead instead.  How many times this past year did you hear we are at the bottom of this crash?  And who did you hear it from, the Fed chairman and Treasury Secretary.  Why would you want to listen to these people, they are either lieing to you on purpose or completely stupid.  The worst is still in front of us and how you store your monitary worth is up to you. 

If you want to invest in gold and sliver, and say gold goes to 5000 dollars an oz, you wouldn't really be able to buy a loaf of bread with that, so it would make sense to own some silver also.  Preferably coins, they are easy to spend when times get rough. 

In my opinion, I think we're going to see some good times ahead for the next 3 to 4 months, then things are going to turn south again.  So just use your own judgement.  We've bailed out the banks, but they will soon be back for more, the auto manufacturers have managed to get some free money, so they will be back also.  Cities and states are next, most are ready for bankruptcy.  None will cut services and can't raise taxes, loosing lots of money and it will continue.  I think the solution is to just clear the books, wipe out all debt and let the banks figure it out.  If no one has any debt, you can be sure that the economy will boom.
r we there yet?
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I purchased a lot of silver about two months ago. At that time it was hard to find and now you cannot purchase Silver as there is none to be sold. Gold is running scarce also. You can currently purchase Investment coins like American Eagles but they are way overpriced and you can also find gold bars. Good luck trying to find 1/10 ounce gold coins.
 
I decided to buy silver for a few reasons. It was affordable and easy to resale. Im also concerned that if the government is printing 1 trillion additional dollars for this bailout then we can go into a period of hyper-inflation which would drive the value of the dollar down while increasing the value of silver/gold.
 
From the chatter of the people in the commodities industry they are saying that silver may not go up as industry uses a lot of silver. If industry is cutting back on production then so would the amount of silver being consumed. I do hear that gold will continue to rise. But at this time i cant afford to buy gold as its very expensive. 
 
At least i have the warm fussy feeling of knowing i have something to bargain with if we ever enter into a troubled time.
 
If anyone is interested here are some tips on how to buy gold or silver. Look online for places that sell it or call around to your local coin shops. There are numerous places that will sell it. I purchased 'one ounce silver rounds'. Rounds, just indicate that its a one ounce coin which has some sort of design and clearly marked ".999 silver" and "one troy ounce". Do not buy legal tender coins like Morgan Dollars as you are paying a premium for collectors value which is way over the spot value of silver. This is how it works:  You will ask what the price is and the place will give you a quote which is the days spot silver price + markup. Be sure to shop around as some places will charge several dollars over the spot price. So if the the price of silver that day is $10.00 they may actually charge you $13.00 per ounce. After calling around for an hour I found a place called Blanchard which only charged $1.00 over spot. It took about 6 weeks for them to send me the actual silver and  I was sweating bullets waiting for it.
 
Another thing to keep in mind if you dont want a paper trail then you can pay cash at Coin Shops. The only problem is finding a coin shop that has a large amount of silver/gold to sell you.
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I too am in the go with your own thoughts camp. 
 
But I did imagine something that gave me pause.... and that was, so, I have all this gold I bought high.  When it comes time to sell it, will I sell at the correct time, before it drops? 
 
Or ...when I want to sell it I am getting what? for it?
Devalued Dollars?  Arrrggghhh  :)  Or If I want something for it...will I be able to barter?
exchange it for getting new siding on my house?  mmm will the  siding company feel they can off load or barter my gold for similar value?  Something we all have to face is....
 
In China/Russia at one time... bricks of tea were used as money.   Who is to say what has value at what time. 
 
 
A 51 year old retired worker from  Lanzhou City, had left to him by his grandfather, a 1907 relic of brick tea from Hubei Province.  It was later valued at over a million dollars.
 
The US Government has backed Citigroup to the hilt.  The stock is very low now... if I buy (working in approximates) 571 shares at 7.00 and put it in a tax free Roth IRA...and 5 years later the stock is worth 40.00 per share... I  have made about $18,840.00
for my $3,997.00 investment.  And... with this bank's history of splits I may be able to expect my shares to double at some point.  I pay no taxes on this money when I pull it out.
 
If one can get those results buying gold...high  (always buy low) at this point in time,
I may soon see a pink piggie dancing by my window.Pig%20dances%202%20-%20Click%20image%20to%20download.  I see after reading Bo's post there isn't a lot of gold to buy...at a reasonable price?
 
 
 
 
 
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.

 
 
A brick of Hunan mi zhaun cha,  made of powdered black tea
 
 
 
Tea bricks as currency
........................................................................
 
Due to the high value of tea in many parts of Asia, tea bricks were used as a form of currency throughout China, Tibet, Mongolia, and Central Asia. This is quite similar to use of Salt bricks as currency in parts of Africa.
 
Tea bricks were in fact the preferred form of currency over metallic coins for the nomads of Mongolia and Siberia. The tea could not only be used as money and eaten as food in times of hunger but also brewed as allegedly beneficial medicine for treating coughs and colds. Up until World War II, tea bricks were still used as a form of edible currency in Siberia.
 
Tea bricks for Tibet were mainly produced in the area of Ya'an (formerly Yachou-fu) in Sichuan province. The bricks were produced in five different qualities and valued accordingly.
 
The kind of brick which was most commonly used as currency in the late 19th and early 20th century was that of the third quality which the Tibetans called "brgyad pa" ("eighth"), because at one time it was worth eight Tibetan tangkas (standard silver coin of Tibet which weighs about 5.4 grams) in Lhasa. Bricks of this standard were also exported by Tibet to Bhutan and Ladakh.
 
wikipedia
...............................................
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alpha480v Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2008 at 3:35am

Gold is too expensive for me to buy. I got some common date Mercury dimes, and pre 1965 Roosevelt dimes. Since I'm a coin collector, I also have a complete set of American silver eagles. All of these coins  are recognizable by almost everyone as having silver content, and in a shtf scenario, might be valuable as trade.

My thinking on this is that gold and silver have always been valued as money throughout history. There is no guarantee that  they still will be in a shtf scenario now, but I feel better knowing that some of my money is tied up in something that is solid.
 
The bottom line is that nobody knows what is going to happen. Don't have all your extra cash in one thing. You have to diversify.
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For those of you who don't/ won't buy metal, you can invest in mining stocks or mutual funds that are precious metal based. One fund I deal with is up 30% in the last month. When the time comes and growth and large caps, etc. start to come back you can trade/exchange back into them.

   My feeling is that there will be a increase in precious metal funds for a few years before "regular' funds get back on their feet.

   When folks say G & S is expensive, I remember when (in 2005) they thought G was too much at 500.00$ per ounce. Now it seems like quite a bargain.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mississippi Mama Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2008 at 9:09pm
Does anyone have any ideas on where is  the best place to store gold and silver?  Should it be stored inside or out side the home.?  What kind of containers would you use. 
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My personal thoughts on storing of a precious metal.  Plastic bucket would do the trick.  Buryed in the back yard would seem a reasonable place.  The garden, you work in there a lot anyway, so no one would really be watching you do some digging there.  I don't know how deep, since it could be found with a metal detector, most likely not.  A good german shepard will keep people out of your back yard.

Inside a wall or under the floor can also be somewhat secure however once again a metal detector would give away your stash, since a wall is only 1/2 inch thick and a floor about an inch, so not much protection from a metal detector.  A safe would work, but you would open it in a min if someone put a gun to your head.  It's a good place to store a small amount of money and maybe a couple coins, so if you did open it for someone, they would assume they got your stash.  Same problem with the attic, a metal detector would give it away.

Safe deposit box, that is certainly a safe place unless the gov shuts all the banks down for a holiday, like in the 30's.  Your box at that time became property of the government and when you were allowed to open it, a government agent was at your side to see what was in it.  All gold was confiscated.  Recently in England, they raided a safe deposit company and the gov declared all gold was obtained illigally, your drug laws at work.

There are companies out there that will store your precious metals for a fee.  However, if the SHTF, you can bet your bottom dollar you won't have access to this stash.  Also, if the gov decides to confiscate all gold, this would be the first place they raid.

Of course, gold is not money, that's why the federal reserve has 25% of all the gold, that is above ground, in their vault.  Most governments are now hording gold, at least it has more value then paper.


r we there yet?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mississippi Mama Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2008 at 10:06pm
LaRo thank you so much for the suggestions you gave. 
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Flumom,keep your money in beans and rice and .22cal bullets. In any emergency,you can still feed your family and .22cal. bullets will be very valuable as barter currency. Johnray1 
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Mary08,keep your valuables in beans and rice and .22 cal. bullets. In any emergency,you will be able to feed your family and .22cal. bullets will be very valuable as a barter currency. Johnray1
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hi... I do have beans and rice... about enough for 6 mo or so,  but Johnray, I can't retire on that :)  ...question...will .22cal put away a charging intruder?  the weight of a pistol is a factor for women..when picked up it tends to wave in the air...of course that is frightening too...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2009 at 1:29am
Mary08,the best way that I answer this guestion is to tell you that if you put two .45cal rounds through  an intruder,you have probably put 450 gr,to 500 gr. of lead through the intruder and it will probably stop him in his tracks,but if you put 10 ,.22cal rounds rapidly through the same intruder,it will do the same thing. But I would be lying to you if I told you that a .22cal round has the same stopping power as a .45cal.,because it does not. But the .22cal round(with several hits) on the same intruder,will still stop him,but not as fast. ---But almost every one ownes a .22cal rifle or pistol and the ammo. will be in great demand. Every one does not own a .45cal pistol.The .22cal round is a good killing round,but it is not a good stopping round.In the hands of a woman,who may miss the second shot with a .45cal. (with the recoil factor built in) the .22cal semi-auto may be the best choice.  Johnray1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2009 at 4:44am
A Ruger 10/22 semi automatic rifle is a good choice.. Very accurate and will fire 10 rounds as quick as you can say " get off my property now or I'll shoot"!
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coyote,you are 100% correct again.Johnray1
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Have a Colt Defender...45ACP. Have not shot it yet due to many reasons but also have a 38 Special. Had a 9 MM and did really well with it but it would jam so I got rid of it. Hope I can handle my Defender if not I will build up my wrist and arm. I like the knock down power and will do anything to have it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2009 at 11:07pm
FluMon.knock down power is great,but, if you can not or do not hit your target,it means nothing.Either learn to use and handle the Colt defender like it is part of your body(and takes thousands of rounds and time) or trade it in for a Ruger 22/45 pistol or a Ruger 10/22 rifle) because you can use either one of these effectively .But it still takes practice. Johnray1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2009 at 4:57am
I have 10 extra clips for my 10/22 and each one holds 10 rounds. Thats a lot of fire power that can be shot off very quickly! I also have pistols, shotguns, and other rifles that I can choose from, depending upon what situation arises..I hope and pray that that day never comes!
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Yes, Johnray1 I know about guns...just have not had the time to get to the range. I do real well with my 38 special just need time with the Defender. I have been shooting for 30 years, 22, 9MM, 38, shotguns, and now a Defender. I know what it takes just doing it right now is a problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dr.Who Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2009 at 5:56am
Gold and silver are valuable because people can make stuff out of it.

If things get bad enough that money is worthless then they will probably be bad enough that no one will want to be making very many silver goblets.

I personally would not be trading my food for gold or silver.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 10 2009 at 7:33pm
Dr. Who I agree with you! My question is when the paper money is not worth anything what will we use to purchase what we need.

What will be worth something, gold, silver, diamonds, food, booze, or what?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cgh18 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2009 at 9:20am
Let's for sake of arguement say over the next several years for what ever reasons ( and there are several good ones), a dollar can of food today goes to 10$, and a US 10$ bill drops to a dollar in value, That means a one dollar can of food will be equal to 100 $. I hope you have alot of them!

   Value of an item's monetary value is rarity , demand and faith in it's worth. With the way things are going the US currency doesn't have much appael to me, Nor do stocks and bonds. During a crisis food, necesities and staples will soar. The US dollar could be very weak and that 10$ can of food priceless.
    Lots of folks already realise the folly of the dollar, so I would think they will find something else to replace paper money. I already have it is bright and shiney or comes in cans and jars. I shouldn't need many paper products as I'm sure there will be wheel barrels full on the cheap.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dr.Who Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2009 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by FluMom FluMom wrote:

Dr. Who I agree with you! My question is when the paper money is not worth anything what will we use to purchase what we need.

What will be worth something, gold, silver, diamonds, food, booze, or what?


I wouldn't be too quick to say "when the paper money is not worth anything." We had  a serious pandemic in 1918 and people kept working and kept buying stuff with money.

Even in another serious pandemic while you and I plan for SIP most people will go to work and take their chances with dying. The economy is likely to be harmed but not killed.

Nevertheless IF things get bad food and shelter will be valuable. Tools to make food and shelter will be valuable. And oddly enough based on what people continue to buy when times are hard booze will not loose value either even though it is less critical than say protein. Far too many people would be willing to skip a good nutrition meal in favor or pasta washed down with booze.
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