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PANDEMIC ALERT LEVEL
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Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk

Have you prepped your immune system?

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    Posted: February 23 2006 at 2:26am

A few members and I are engaging in a debate from the "Flu that is here now" thread on the importance of a healthy immune system.

My argument is that it is not a GUARANTEE..few things in life are...but that it it will become vitally important if a pandemic occurs.

The opposition states that a healthy immune system is not a guarantee (of which we agree on), but that in some cases in can be detrimental.

Such may be true in very RARE cases, but the medical community stands solidly behind a healthy immune system and vaccinations. The very nature of vaccinations is to strengthen the immune system.  Thereby the importance of vaccines is dwarfed by the importance of the immune system. 

I believe this topic is important enough with a possible pandemic on the horizion to warrant it's own thread.

Rather than arguing back and forth, I would like to present my reasoning, without rancor.  And the reasoning of medical personnel. 

 

from NIAID: " Vaccines are designed to stimulate the immune system to protect against microgranisms such as viruses" (end of quote)

If it wasn't important, there would not be so many programs in place to stimulate the immune system to fight a myriad of diseases. REMEMBER: the vaccines DO NOT fight the diseases for us.......OUR IMMUNE SYSTEMS DO THAT. The vaccines only give it something to fight, a boost.  

a boost only! From Mayo clinic.com:

"When your immune system is weakened by illness or treatment, you're at greater risk of severe complications — even death — from infection. Vaccinations offer protection when your immune system comes into contact with certain germs it can't handle. 

continuation of the quote from MayoClinic.com: "When your immune system is impaired (immunocompromised), you're at risk of infection. Your risk of serious illness or even death is much greater than a healthy person's. Your immune system can't as easily recognize and fight off bacteria, viruses or other germs the way a healthy immune system can.

That means you have to take extra precautions. Among the most important are getting the immunizations you need at the appropriate times. Know which immunizations pose a threat and which can help protect you. Unfortunately, vaccinations can't completely make up for an impaired immune system. Take the influenza vaccine. (PLEASE TAKE NOTE OF THE FOLLOWING) When a healthy person is vaccinated he is 70 to 90 percent protected. When an immuno compromised person is vaccinated, he is only 30 to 40 percent protected. " (end of quote)

 

 

Let's start with the CDC and who is on their "at risk" list for flu complications.

the elderly, even if healthy and active. WHY?

from the medical College of Wisconsin: " As the human body enters its senior years, its ability to fight off infection and other health problems diminishes significantly. The immune system, which is responsible for fighting infection, simply does not function as efficiently in older adults as in younger people"(end of quote)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

pregnant women.  Why?

from babydirectory.com:  "Pregnancy suppresses a woman's immune system, otherwise the fetus might be rejected by her body as a 'foreign body'. This can make a pregnant woman more prone to infection which has implications for her own health as well as for her developing baby." (end of quote)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

young children.  Why?

from healthychild.com: "

"The key to a healthy child is a strong immune system. When functioning properly, the immune system fights disease-producing organisms such as bacteria, viruses, fungi, and parasites. All children are continuously exposed to these pathogens, but exposure does not mean a child will get sick. A strong immune system provides a child with powerful natural defenses against disease. Conversely, a child with a weakened immune system is vulnerable or more susceptible to colds, flu, and more serious illnesses. "

from the CDC: " newborn babies are immune to many diseases because they have antibodies they got from their mothers. However, this immunity only lasts about a year.

The best time to get vaccinated is October or November. Children getting a flu shot for the first time will need two doses given 30 days apart so begin the process sooner rather than later. (The first dose primes the immune system; the second dose provides immune protection.)" (end of quote)

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Diabetics are on this list. Why?

"From the Georgia dept. of public health website: "For people with diabetes, a case of influenza ("the flu") can mean more than aches and pains. It may result in longer illness, hospitalization, or even death. Diabetes can make the immune system more vulnerable to severe cases of the flu. People with diabetes are almost 3 times more likely to die with the flu or pneumonia" (end of quote)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And I guess we all know WHY cancer and AIDS patients need the shot - they are IMMUNO COMPROMISED also..i.e. they have weak immune systems.

This is the CDC's  universally accepted list: 

Who is at high risk of flu complications?

§ People who are 65 years old or older. Even if you are active and in excellent health, you have a higher risk of complications if you get the flu. Each year about 36,000 people in the U.S. die because of the flu—most are 65 or older.

§ People with chronic (ongoing) or long-term health problems. You may look and feel healthy, but if you have a condition like diabetes, heart disease, kidney disease, or asthma, you are more likely to have complications from the flu. If your immune system is weakened by long-term problems like cancer or HIV/AIDS, you need a flu shot (the flu shot is safe for people with weak immune systems).

§ Women who are pregnant during flu season (typically November through March). Pregnant women are at risk of complications and hospitalization if they get the flu. The influenza vaccine is safe for pregnant women and their babies. Protect yourself and your baby by getting vaccinated.

§ Children under 2 years old. Children under 2 years old have one of the highest rates of hospitalizations due to flu complications.

########################################################

from the CDC:

"If you have a chronic health condition, you should be among the first to get a flu shot every year."

On average, the flu kills 36,000 people each year in the U.S.

Chronic health conditions include asthma, kidney disease, diabetes, heart disease, lung disease, chronic bronchitis, a weakened immune system, and HIV." (end of quote)

***************************************

Per the above statement from the CDC, a weak immune system puts you in an AT RISK category. Further motivation for us to strenthen ours.

Now that we've all stocked up on the food, water and masks.....Isn't there another area we should be "prepping" folks?

Hey, I am not trying to be a smart aleck.........I just wanted to state my case and give all of you something to consider while we prep our hearts out......waiting to see if this axe will fall.  The medical community concurs..........prep that immune system.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ella Fitzgerald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2006 at 8:25pm

Marzinn,

Thank you for starting this thread.

Your findings above are great but all of them are for the immune system in situations other than when posed with a lethal virus like H5N1.

I would love to see some postings specifically on findings of the immune system in regards to the H5N1 virus or even the 1918 flu virus. Everything I've found so far regarding the 1918 virus indicates that a healthy immune system was more fatal than a compromised one.

I work with elders, I had toxemia during pregnancy, I have diabetes in my family and I am a mother of 2. I can say that all those things posted above are what we are taught in nursing school BUT I am not convinced that the same rules apply with the H5N1 virus.

I think the game mother nature is creating has new rules and we've got to get ahead of them or we all lose.

 

 

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ella Fitzgerald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2006 at 8:55pm
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That's just it, Ella. THIS IS A NEW FLU. NONE OF US KNOWS THE RULES TO THIS GAME. So, it is much like playing the lottery. Now, you can go against all the CDC and NIAID advice and weaken your immune system, or take the advice of those wiser than us, and strengthen it. Either way, like the lottery.........your number could come up.

My post is chock full of logical reasoning and expert advice........take it or leave it.

Seesthelight has emotional baggage in regards to this subject, and we all sympathize and understand why.  But when it comes to making that final decision to purposely weaken your immune system, hoping this flu will therefore not launch it's fury upon us, since we're not fighting back... is a DEADLY game.

Vaccination..i.e. the awakening of one's immune system, has saved MANY lives from once dreaded killers such as polio and smallpox.  If a weak immune system was to be desired, vaccination would be unnecessary and unsucessful.....

THE VERY THING THAT HAS SAVED MILLIONS OF LIVES IS DESIGNED TO AWAKEN THE IMMUNE SYSTEM, NOT SHUT IT DOWN.

How will this virus react? no one knows......it's a gamble. Buy your lottery ticket.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ella Fitzgerald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2006 at 9:33pm

I agree that it is a gamble but since the H5N1 virus is much like the 1918 flu then a healthy immune system may be a fatal one.

I don't think anyone should do anything to lessen their immune system but I think I have to consider the historical data.

I agree that in the end none of us know. I guess the big fear is what is best......a healthy immune system or a compromised one.....

That is why this thread is such a good one. I want others to bring it on and show us some of their findings. I wanna know what my odds are and most importantly my young children.

The 1918 flu :

Unfortunately, the sequences of the 1918 flu genes offer no explanation for why the most deaths in the pandemic were among young adults, 18-35 years old -- a population that traditionally has the lowest influenza death rate. Taubenberger suspects that the virus's lethality had less to do with its genetic sequence than with an unusual immune response to it in its victims. The idea is that prior exposure to a different strain of virus -- an earlier case of the flu -- caused their body to react improperly to the 1918 bug, perhaps allowing it to replicate and infect cells and tissues even faster than it normally would have. "It made them particularly susceptible to die," he says.


 

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Ella,

                                 I've started a thread on the 1918 flu as I am currently reading a great book on it.  Please read the new thread as it may be important concerning common notions about the 1918 flu. This book is very in depth, written by a virologist, and does NOT support the notion that the Spanish flu was MORE or LESS lethal in healthy young adults.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ella Fitzgerald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2006 at 12:45am

Interesting Marzinn,

I will check it out. Thanks for researching this also. I just love a good debate and we are both driven to find answers but just looking at it from different angles.

This is so helpful.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tansau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2006 at 4:24am
...and if you haven't checked it out yet, you probably want to read the great
postings on the Cytokine Storm response in the Medical section. Great
research and links have been posted, as well as pointers to suppliments that
enhance the immune system and others than can dampen the cytokine
storm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bruss01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2006 at 6:45am

I've read what I can about the effects of an immune system Cytokine Storm.  I've also read the statistics from the 1918 outbreak showing statistically those with best immune systems had highest mortality.  Lung tissue is delicate, and with a virus and a hearty immune system both throwing everything they've got at it... it quickly becomes a devastated no-man's land and turns to mush.

My strategy will be to stimulate my immune system in some ways, but not in others.  Anything specific is in, anything general is out.

Example:  My wife and I both have had the Pneumovax 23 to stimulate our response to bacterial pneumonia specifically (since 3/4 of those who died in 1918 died of bacterial pneumonia co-infections).  We won't be taking anything to boost GENERAL immune response once we catch the flu.  Tamiflu is not an immune stimulant, so we can take that. It simply inhibits viral replication.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seesthelight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2006 at 8:49am
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We all need sympathy at one time or another, seesthelight. And as caring humans, we all feel it for people at one time or another. Hopefully, we feel it more than less. To not feel sympathy for others is to lack concern for the pain of others. I am sorry if my sympathy upsets you, and I will not mention it again out of respect for your feelings, but I am afraid that I cannot change my basic human nature to feel sadness at the pain of others. And I wouldn't want to.

Again, I apologize for sending you my sympathy. To lighten the situation, may I say "At least I didn't send you a sympathy e card" 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seesthelight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2006 at 8:07am
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ENOUGH please, this is getting too emtional, please just agree to diagree.  We all have our opinions, but this is causing pain at least to one member if not both.

I don't want to lose either of you, to this.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mississipp Mama Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2006 at 3:26pm
  Sees the light Please send me an e-mail relating to your son.  I lost my son in Aug.  No one can and will know what's it's like until they have been in the situation.  I would love to talk to you.  Kashmir@netdoor.com My son passed 2 weeks before we were hit by hurrican katrina. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seesthelight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2006 at 5:01pm

Originally posted by Mississipp Mama Mississipp Mama wrote:

  Sees the light Please send me an e-mail relating to your son.  I lost my son in Aug.  No one can and will know what's it's like until they have been in the situation.  I would love to talk to you.  Kashmir@netdoor.com My son passed 2 weeks before we were hit by hurrican katrina. 

I am sorry to hear you lost your son - and I am sending (((hugs> to Mississippi Mamma))).

Thank you for your email address -check your e-mail and we can talk there.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2006 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by seesthelight
<P>HOW NICE Marzinn , First you say I have emotional baggage to someone here your posting to and talking about me  in a public forum in a negative way and then you apologize for sending sympathy to lighten the situation and your so insincere about it ...... and Your just being sweet? </P>
<P>Next time someone loose's a child, as I told you I have, SEND THEM SOME OF YOUR Sympathy to ease  their emotional baggage and see if they welcome your intention. Just Ridiculous,bye.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>[/QUOTE seesthelight

HOW NICE Marzinn , First you say I have emotional baggage to someone here your posting to and talking about me  in a public forum in a negative way and then you apologize for sending sympathy to lighten the situation and your so insincere about it ...... and Your just being sweet?

Next time someone loose's a child, as I told you I have, SEND THEM SOME OF YOUR Sympathy to ease  their emotional baggage and see if they welcome your intention. Just Ridiculous,bye.

 

[/QUOTE wrote:

 

Yes,  BYE. Every attempt I have made at kindness has been rebuffed by you. I WILL TRY NO MORE. I will not respond to your bitterness with bitterness. I will not respond at all. I am not a convenient outlet for your angst.

I WILL SPEAK TO YOU OR RESPOND NO MORE.

GOD BLESS

 

Yes,  BYE. Every attempt I have made at kindness has been rebuffed by you. I WILL TRY NO MORE. I will not respond to your bitterness with bitterness. I will not respond at all. I am not a convenient outlet for your angst.

I WILL SPEAK TO YOU OR RESPOND NO MORE.

GOD BLESS

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2006 at 7:40pm

Hi ladies.....

Well, imagine my surprise to find a bickering match going on and I am totally unaware!

I'm sorry that the two of you have reached an impasse.  Please let's agree to disagree and move forward. 

Stress manifests itself in strange ways.  No one here intentionally meant to be hurtful.  And as I am ALWAYS finding... my communications are interpreted regularly with meanings that I had no intention of communicating.

Written word in a forum is THE WORST form of communication when it comes to getting our INTENT across.  There is no body language or voice inflection to help with interpreting meaning.  The words are generally rapidly typed without a review to make sure that you typed what you meant to say.

Debi

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2006 at 7:51pm


Once the Bird Flu hits the fan, I think we will have enough
data to make an informed decision as to what the best strategy would be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2006 at 7:53pm
 I'm getting that feeling that I want to hide my head in the sand again!!  I was hoping we get to go 18 months, doesn't look like it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ella Fitzgerald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2006 at 4:53pm

Review
STOCKHOLM, March 2 - A chemotherapy regimen used to treat an immune system disorder might increase survival of people who contract the H5N1 avian influenza virus, Swedish and Chinese researchers have suggested.

The hypothesis, proposed in the March 2 online issue of The Lancet, is based on clinical similarities between hemophagocytic lymphohistiocytosis (HLH) and post-mortem findings in people who have died of H5N1 infection.

The idea has yet to be tested and "might seem to be a substantial jump in therapeutic thinking," conceded Jan-Inge Henter, M.D., of the Karolinska Institute here.

But, he and colleagues argued, a combination of cytotoxic therapy used to treat HLH combined with antiviral and supportive therapy "is worth considering," especially since the mortality rate for people who catch the H5N1 virus is about 50%.

The hypothesis requires testing, but could be immediately ethically justified in patients with H5N1 combined with secondary HLH, they wrote.

HLH is characterized by an excess of both histiocytes and lymphocytes. The disease is associated with hypercytokinemia, cytopenia and acute encephalitis. The cause of death in HLH patients is often sepsis with multi-organ failure.

Post-mortem analyses of two patients who died of H5N1 in 1997 showed a reactive hemophagocytic syndrome as the most prominent feature, Dr. Henter and colleagues noted. Both patients had high levels of cytokines, including interleukin-2 and interferon gamma.

That finding has since been reported in several other cases, the investigators noted.

Another similarity is that many patients who die of H5N1 do so as a result of multi-organ failure, they said.

Also, many patients with HLH develop encephalitis, although it is rarely the cause of death. Acute encephalitis has been reported as the cause of death in two Vietnamese patients with H5N1.

"In brief, there are many clinical similarities between H5N1 infection and HLH," Dr. Henter and colleagues said. "Both disorders are also characterized by a malignant -- i.e., often fatal -- course of a prominent non-malignant inflammatory reaction, and patients with H5N1 could develop secondary HLH."

In 1994, a treatment protocol for HLH was developed, based on corticosteroids, etoposide, cyclosporine A, and intrathecal methotrexate. In one form of HLH -- Epstein-Barr-virus associated HLH -- the treatment has increased survival from 50% to 90%, the investigators noted.

The so-called HLH-94 protocol begins with etoposide and dexamethasone up front. A revised protocol, HLH-2004, suggested adding cyclosporine A up front, but Dr. Henter and colleagues said that approach should probably be avoided because renal problems are frequent in H5N1 infection.

Animal testing for safety is possible to justify treatment in other cases, but since the HLH-94 protocol has been used successfully in humans with severe virus infections for many, "we thought well-controlled use of the treatment in people with severe H5N1 infection would be reasonable and relevant in the current context," Dr. Henter and colleagues said.

They suggested that any testing of the idea should be reported to the HLH Study Center in Stockholm, and added that it might be worthwhile for the World Health Organization to "consider a platform for the undertaking of based on a modified HLH protocol (including corticosteroids and etoposide) in addition to supportive and antiviral therapy."

The authors concluded, "Obviously, we cannot guarantee any therapeutic efficacy, but it would be unfortunate if this therapy was effective but never attempted."

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Pulmonary/URIstheFlu/tb/2774

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bruss01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2006 at 9:26pm

Ella,

Thanks for posting that.  It confirms the thinking that certain aspects of one's own immune system become part of the problem in Avian Influenza.  The treatment mentioned here sounds exotic, like something that would be administered in a clinical, rather than an outpatient setting.  As such, I have dim hopes of seeing it used on any kind of widespread basis... perhaps if Pres. Bush or such-n-such senator comes down with AI, they will get the best most exotic most resource demanding treatments available anywhere.  Most of us will just have to tough it out in our own homes using whatever meds we happen to have on hand at the time.  Face it, every bed in the hospital will be full, and there will be hospital beds in gymnasiums and ampitheatres and airplane hangers, and there will still not be enough beds or medical personnel to give any kind of care whatsoever, unless you have clout.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote northern_mamma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2006 at 12:18pm

Maybe they could do a quick animal study with the proposed chemotherapy regimen  on some French or German cats.

NM

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