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What you think about LHC |
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endman
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Topic: What you think about LHCPosted: January 12 2010 at 12:13pm |
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What I have understood is that Now we are looking at the quark cannon with potential of havening only 10,000 quarks to start a chain reaction that will blow earth into pieces
http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/24611/ The Case of the Collider and the Great Black Hole But there is another group who say that CERN, the organisation that has built and runs the collider, has not done enough to reassure the world that the work is safe. The fear is that the collider can produce black holes that might gobble up the Earth. Various legal actions have failed to halt the work, not because of the scientific or safety issues involved, but because of problems of jurisdiction. CERN has an immunity from court action in its member states and a US court action in Hawaii found that it did not have the jurisdiction to proceed. Today, we get a fascinating new perspective on the issue from Eric Johnson, an assistant professor of law at the University of North Dakota School of Law in Grand Forks. Johnson asks what a court should do with a preliminary-injunction request to halt a multibillion-dollar particle-physics experiment that plaintiffs claim could create a black hole that will devour the planet. This is a problem, he says, that has all the hallmarks of a law-school classic. And to give him his due, it's certainly a gripping read. Johnson begins with an account of the history of the debate behind the science and its safety. This is worth a read by itself because Johnson writes with flare, clarity and an excellent grasp of the issues that scientists grapple with. He is not a physicist but uses his journey of understanding as a way of benchmarking how a court might come to grips with the issues involved. Having set the scene, he then introduces the unique legal problems that this case presents. "The enormity of the alleged harm and the extreme complexity of the scientific factual issues combine to create seemingly irreducible puzzles of jurisprudence," says Johnson. For example, one problem that a court might have to deal with is the expert witness. The problem here is one of independence. There is a huge amount at stake for these witnesses. On the one hand, an injunction would threaten the career of almost any particle physicist who gave evidence. On the other hand, there is the threat to the Earth. "The experts are either afraid for their livelihoods or afraid for their lives," writes Johnson. One way round this is to carry out a cost-benefit analysis but this soon runs into problems too. How do you value the future of entire planet? You could argue that it is infinite in which case any risk that it will be destroyed, no matter how tiny, is too much. Another argument, well established in law, is that there can be no award to a dead person's estate. "Death is simply not a redressable injury under American tort law," says Johnson. By this argument, the downside of a particle-accelerator disaster that destroys the planet--assuming it is quick--is nothing. The cost-benefit analysis simply blows up in our faces. There is a way out of these legal conundrums, however. Johnson describes four categories of meta-analysis that could be used to address the black hole case. One line of analysis focuses on the possibility that the scientific theory upon which the safety assurances are based may be defective. He points out that these safety assurances have not yet stood the test of time. In fact, the various safety assurances that CERN has given over the last ten years or so have changed several times as new ideas and challenges have arisen. That's worrying. And in any case, there is a more general point. Many scientists, even particle physicists, would surely agree that a scientific theory that seems unassailable in one era may seem naïve in the next. This raises the important question of whether state-of-the-art theoretical physics is up to the task of making a trustworthy prediction that the LHC is safe. Then there is the possibility that the scientists at CERN who have given the safety assurances have simply made a mistake in their thinking. Is it really possible that a team of world class scientists could make such an error? Well, yes. One fatal example is the 1954 Castle Bravo nuclear test which was supposed to yield 5 megatons but actually yielded 15 megatons because of flawed calculations. In this case, a Japanese trawler fishing outside the exclusion zone was engulfed by fallout killing one of the crew. Then there were the calculations that physicists used to reassure the public that another accelerator called RHIC was safe. These too turned out to be seriously flawed. But perhaps the most worrying problem is the possibility of groupthink, that particle physicists have simply convinced themselves that the LHC is not dangerous and will brook no alternative view. There are some other examples of this in science, perhaps the most high profile one being the Columbia space shuttle tragedy. Johnson says this: "The report of the Columbia Accident Investigation Board ("CAIB") found that decision makers focused on information that tended to support their expected or desired result--that the foam strike that ultimately doomed Columbia did not represent a safety of flight issue." Indeed CAIB said: "In our view, the NASA organizational culture had as much to do with this accident as the foam." It would be hard to rule out the possibility that a similar form of groupthink infects the particle physics community. On the contrary, there is evidence that physicists have little time for anyone who questions their safety assurances. Johnson quotes the British physicist Brian Cox who is reported to have said: "Anyone who thinks the LHC will destroy the world is a twat." That is not an encouraging sign. But perhaps the most powerful argument that all is not well with CERN's safety assurances is the fact that the organisation has carried out the safety studies itself. Here is Johnson's take: "It is remarkable to think for a moment how CERN's situation might be viewed if, instead of operating a particle accelerator, CERN was a developer of pharmaceuticals. If a pharmaceutical firm attempted to take a drug to market based on the safety assessment of a panel of five of its employees, who in turn relied on the scientific work of one employee and one other scientist with a pending visiting position with the firm--it would be a scandal of epic proportions." Having presented the case, Johnson himself is remarkably relaxed about the issue. "My motivation in writing is certainly not to engender fear. I have no apprehension to share. Nor is it my intent or my desire to shut down the LHC. ... My argument is one of law," he says. He does not not predict how such a legal case might pan out. Instead, he says it would be a matter for a court decide (presuming one could be found with the necessary authority to hear it). Nevertheless, it is hard to come away from Johnson's analysis with the impression that the global public interest has been well served in this matter. Johnson says this: "While it seems absurd, in the abstract, that a group of apparently normal people could risk the entire planet in the course of carrying out a science experiment, the prospect does seem distinctly plausible once one takes a look at the details. Such a disaster is not likely, to be sure, but it does appear plausible enough to give one pause." Johnson is well aware that this case may never come to court (although he points out that one like it that raises the same issues may well come about in the future). So the real test will be how the particle physics community responds, whether with spittle-flecked ire or reasoned argument. There is another possibility of course; that they'll simply attempt to ignore it. Ref: arxiv.org/abs/0912.5480: The Black Hole Case: The Injunction Against the End of the World
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Turboguy
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Posted: January 13 2010 at 5:17am |
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The collider black hole theory has been debunked time and again. Even in the unlikely event that they did create a black hole, it would be so small that it would dissipate within seconds from the release of what's known as "Hawking Radiation."
Also you've been literally bombarded by very energetic particles since the day you were born, on the order of several million to a billion quarks etc every second, and the Earth has been getting the same treatment since it first formed from a protoplanetary disk several billion years ago without a single mini-black hole ever developing and tearing our planet a new one.
We're pretty safe, and yes, you're right, it is interesting!
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endman
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Posted: January 13 2010 at 10:51am |
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Yes I thought that too, but what this guy is saying it that, this machine ignites a self-sustaining quark reaction that will blow us all up. I thought this was an interesting article
About science been used in not so peaceful means |
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Turboguy
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Posted: January 13 2010 at 12:53pm |
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Are you talking about the "Strange" quark Ice9 kind of situation?
With the literally quadrillions to the Nth degree of quarks the sun has sent our planet's way over the last three billion years, if this was going to happen, it probably would have by now.
Now if they're able to make a substantial quantity of antimatter, and it got loose, we could have a major problem. And when I say major problem, I mean that one speck the size of a grain of sand getting loose into air would create an explosion the likes of which we only get to see when stars go supernova! If someone dumped a pound of antimatter somewhere it'd be quite a boom. There's quite a lot of energy all tied up in everything, when it zaps out of existence... It'd be the fourth of July on a global scale!
The pyro in me would jump at the chance to see that one go off!
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endman
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Posted: January 14 2010 at 2:08pm |
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I wish this would led to new power source that would power us the next 1000 years no need for Oil, coal nuclear energy any more all the power you need in one small pakege
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Mary008
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Posted: January 14 2010 at 8:54pm |
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Top 8 Large Hadron Collider Videos.....................................................................................
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Mary008
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rickster58
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Posted: January 16 2010 at 12:28am |
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Maybe it will endman. If a new technology is waiting to propel us to a new level of understanding then I think the LHC could be a stepping stone on that path.
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Technologist
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Posted: January 16 2010 at 3:37am |
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I need to introject. Endman, I'm in bed with a perfect 8.5. Now she's hitting me for being honest. Girls hate honestly! OK this chick is a pefect 13. Long Argument! Erase that, Now she's superstitious and thinks I cursed her. So she's a 8.5 again and asking why she's not a 9 or 10. I told her, her sister was a 10 and she should have been happy with the 13 I gave her. I can't figure out chicks! What do they want? Honestly or exaggeration?
I admit it, I'm only saying this because you made that giant post in RED and only the devil makes a point in red. Why didn't you post it in orangutan? I might not be a color but it almost sounds like one. Ok I'll read your post in the morning. Until then, remember until I read your post, you're on probation! Why? Because I felt like saying something really stupid before getting really serious tomorrow. I'm glad we had this talk. Beware of tomorrow. Why? I don't know why, just because! If Med were here, he would say I just threatened his family and I'm stalking him. So let that be a lesson to everyone. Never do what I never did!
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sunburn
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Posted: January 16 2010 at 5:01am |
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???????
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Medclinician
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Posted: January 16 2010 at 5:12am |
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The quark cannon is plainly speaking
a Damocles sword that will hang over all of mankind, as the Nuclear
Company that manufactured it shoots every day protons and lead to make
the most dangerous substance of the Universe, ‘quark matter
condensates’. During 2 years, with increasing power, we shall enter a
region in which the most dangerous, attractive substance of the cosmos,
quark matter condensates, could become stable and feed on Earth's
electroweak matter. As in the Greek legend in which each day the sword
hangs on a thinner thread over the throne of Damocles, the quark cannon
will be each day more dangerous, as the Company ramps up its power
during 2 years in which the cannon promises to reach finally over 1000
teravolt shots in lead to lead collisions in Christmas 2012…
If the existence of the Damocles Machine is bad enough, as in the legend, the nightmare becomes complete when we realize that only Damocles – only a few nuclear physicists – know the secrets of the quark cannon and they cannot reveal them to the rest of mankind, because they will loose their kingdom, their jobs and position of power as the 'high priests of science', who have never been made responsible for the enormous harm their weapons have caused to mankind. So none of them talks of the dangers of the quark cannon, only of the incredible discoveries it will bring to the human species... Indeed, to understand while mankind has paid for the quark cannon, we must consider a historic overview of the ways in which the military-industrial system has evolved and markets today successfully its weapons to governments and public alike, brushing off any opposition with the usual tools of industrial marketing and political corruption. It is a deja vu experience in the world of nuclear weapons. Physicists at CERN do not want to blow up the Earth; and so, as anyone in the military profession of making or using weapons, for decades they have found 'intellectual reasons' to justify the industry of atomic cannons. Already Teller convinced Truman of the need to make Hydrogen bombs, because they were needed to 'know better' the atom. Then he proposed a H-Bomb made with his company at stratospheric price to blow up THE WHOLE URSS, backed by the entire nuclear community. Eissenhower realized of this MAD strategy and called Krushev starting the process of disarmament. Again Lederman invented the Higgs hoax and sold it to Reagan as 'God's particle' to get 13 billion for the Texas quark cannon. Clinton far more intelligent realized of the dangers, uselesness and tag prize and cancelled. I suggest mr. obama to call sarkozy and do the same with this, the 3rd time, the nuclear industry tries to create a doomsday weapon.... Since as they say in spanish 'a la tercera va la vencida'(3rd time always happens). Indeed, the excuse of knowledge is weakened as the fundamental particles of the Universe are ALL discovered, diminishing the 'scientific returns' of those weapons; while on the other hand, the dangers increased, as the potency of atomic bombs and cannons increased. The quark cannon has definitely tilted the balance: the risk are far bigger than the knowledge we shall extract from it. But the Nuclear company of Europe did not want to shut down, so it found 3 excuses to dilute the dangers: 'denial of dangers', 'excuses of knowledge', and 'ad hominem campaigns' against those who opposed them, paid by with the enormous 10 billion $ budget given to the company to build the machine. - CERN diluted the dangers with false statements that portrayed the quark cannon as a harmless cosmic ray factory, when it is a fact of science that quarks and cosmic rays are completely different kind of particles. We have, in fact, excellent cosmic rays observatories and we never found quarks in cosmic rays. So we have in a surrealist twist a factory of a certain, dangerous substance, quarks, which is not mentioned in all its communiques, but substituted by a harmless one, cosmic rays. Imagine a factory of missiles that would systematically affirm, it produces only knives. But in an age in which research journalism is dead, it has been possible to pull out this kind of lie. - Then, during all the years in which the company lobbied for money to construct the machine, it made marketing campaigns affirming that this machine will prove a series of fringe theories, pumped up as the ‘meaning of it all’: The company said that the quark cannon would find 'God's particle', a hypothesized particle called the Higgs, which according to the company shall explain the meaning of mass. This again is false. The particle is self-similar to a well known quark, the top quark. It has the same mass and properties, and so it is very likely, since the Universe is efficient and not redundant, that the Higgs, which we haven't found in 30 years, does not exist at all but it is the already known top quark and the 'God's particle sting', just a trick to get funding for a 'new, stupendous discovery' that will never happen. Further on, even if it exists it is only useful to explain a reaction, the death of our matter, as neutrons and protons decay into 2 particles called W and Z, which are related to the Higgs=Top quark (the sum of their masses is that of a Higgs/Top: W+Z=T). So this hypothetical Higgs merely would be the catalyzer of the death of our matter. And a factory of Top/Higgs quarks means only a factory that will kill our matter, and if the reaction goes out of hand, all the matter of the planet Earth. Apart from that, the Higgs/Top does not explain at all the meaning of mass, or gives mass to other particles. This is nonsense. It is just one more particle of the zoo of the Universe. So all that marketing about the Higgs/Top, being 'God's particle' and the most important particle of the Universe is ludicrous. If the Higgs Hoax is not widely recognized among nuclear physicists it has to do with the confrontation between quantum, nuclear physicists and Einstein, the pacifist scientist who worked out a theory of gravitation and mass, which still stands. In essence, Einstein defined masses as 'whirls of space-time', attractive tornado-like vortices that followed his principle of equivalence between mass and acceleration. So as a hurricane accelerates towards its center, attracting all what surrounds it, a mass is an attractive whirl of space-time. Unlike the Higgs, a particle with a limited use, such definition of mass, taken to its ultimate consequences, illuminates the understanding of the Universe as nothing else has done since Darwin, reason why those 2 colossus stand as the key figures of XIX and XX century science, while Higgs is still an unrecognized, retired, Edinburgh professor without a Nobel Prize. Why Einstein's mass theory is so important? Because it means among other facts: -The existence of a spiritual universe based in 'motions', in 'time events' more than in substances, in space. Indeed, if mass is a cyclical, accelerated motion and energy is a lineal motion, then the Universe is an eternal game of two motions in constant transformation. What we call energy or entropy and what we call in/form/ation, or cyclical form (masses and charges). -It explains easily how mass becomes energy and vice-versa. Indeed, in Einstein's model of mass, E=Mc2 means just that when energy approaches the c-limit of speed of our spacetime, as it cannot go faster, it 'deflects' its energy that curls into cyclical motion, into mass. -The duality and constant transformation of energy into information (masses and particles) applies also to other sciences, as biologists well know. Since they also describe biological beings as a series of cycles of transformation of energy into information. Thus Einstein's theory gives science the possibility to relate naturally all disciplines and species as systems of energy (fields of forces in physics, bodies in biology) and information (cyclical particles and spherical heads). This is in fact recognized even by quantum physicists as the fundamental law of their science, called the Principle of Complementarity: 'all particles need an energetic field and an informative particle to exist.' For all those reasons, the 2 most important physicists alive, laugh at the Higgs. Mr. Weinberg, the Nobel Prize, discoverer of the weak force, called it 'the toilet particle' to flush in a vortex of mass of Dr. Einstein. Mr. Wilczek, discoverer of the strong force, says that masses are the frequencies of a whirl of space-time; and that is the only explanation of mass there is. Obviously the discoverer of the modern laws of gravitation, the 3rd force of the Universe, Mr. Einstein would disagree also with Higgs theory. The 4th fundamental physicist of the modern age, Mr. Maxwell, discoverer of the laws of the 4th force of Nature, electromagnetism, lived in the XIX c. So we do not know what he thinks. Perhaps for that reason Mr. Higgs likes to compare himself with this 'other' Scottish genius, as he does in the documentary provided by CERN. - Finally, when the dangers of the Large Hadron Cannon were known, as scientists sued CERN for genocide in different Courts of Europe and America, the Nuclear Company put the 'system' of defamation, so useful in those cases, at work. First it voiced out 'ad hominem' campaigns against those scientists who denounced the crime. Let us follow the account of those facts, according to Eric Johnson in the paper that prompted this article: 'Brian Cox, spokesman for CERN, said in public: “Anyone who thinks the LHC will destroy the world,†he said, “is a twat.†John Ellis, chief theorist at CERN referred to LHC detractors as “nuts†and insinuated that one of them, Walter Wagner, was only pursuing a lawsuit against CERN to make money. Yet Wagner was suing for an injunction, not damages.' On the other side, none of the scientists who denounced the quark cannon were able to explain themselves in the press (reasons why we have to do this kind of long posts to give an information which is vial to mankind). Thus by monopolizing all the information about the suits, CERN soon convinced mankind that all those scientists who were not in favor of CERN, were 'crazy people' for suing CERN - as another CERN physicist put it. Let us quote again jonson: John Ellis, gave a talk in the CERN auditorium in which he sought “to provide the ammunition†that CERN people could use to convince others that the quark cannon poses no danger. After reviewing the scientific arguments that the LHC is safe, Ellis explained that a question that worried him more than whether humanity was safe from the LHC, was the opposite—whether the LHC was safe from Humanity. Ellis then briefed the audience on unfavorable press reports, the various lawsuits filed to stop the LHC, and a public opinion poll indicating that most people thought the LHC was not worth the risk. Ellis also introduced the audience to Richard Posner, whom Ellis said he found “really worrying†for considering that society and judges should have a telling in an experiment that could cause our demise. Wrapping up, Ellis came to what his presentations slides labeled “The Best answer.†“So, to finish,†Ellis said, “the way to stop all this argument about whether the LHC is going to destroy the planet is to get the LHC working.†“Within a few weeks time, we will know that LSAG was right.†Of course, in making such a statement, Ellis either showed that he misapprehends the relevant physics, which seems highly doubtful, and accepted as a way of 'doing science' , wishful thinking. is John Ellis right? Shall we, human beings, mankind at large and our institutions and courts, let scientists invent all kind of machines, even those who can destroy us? Obviously not. Consider for example, a factory of Ebola Virus that would study different mutations of the Virus for knowledge. We would not allow crazy scientists to create such factory. So why we allow a factory of dark, quark matter, the physical equivalent of the Ebola Virus? i suggest NATO closes down this disguised weapon, as we asked in our suits, using the provisions of the Patriot Act that allow governments to seize any nuclear substance that endangers the life of Americans and citizens of allied countries. In that regard, there is a law that allows to close CERN despite its diplomatic immunity. Luis Sancho, Plaintiff on Sancho Vs. Doe&CERN [/QUOTE] comment: In parts of my writing I discussed the phenomena of Quark Gluon Plasma before several of the particle accelerators where we would take gold atoms and accelerate them in opposite directions at Brookhaven Lab with whom we worked- and analyze the left over sub atomic particles and muons. I discussed in particular QGP and its possible use as a weapon - by creating a hole in the atmosphere with laser- since we are dealing with a particle accelerator- and the phenemona of both black and white holes. White holes while rarely discussed- occur near the sun and are created by the huge gravitational tugs which occur. In dialogues with one particular Japanese scientist-and also on a news special- they could see multiple objects around the sun. QGP during its brief existence creates a temperature hotter than the surface of the sun and plasmid weapons in my opinion are an area of considerable danger as opposed to the further extension of technology applccations of rail guns and other advanced physics. Have grown up next to the particle accelerator in Palo Alto and almost married the doctor of of one of their top research physicists- Dr. Hoyt- that was the beginning in many ways of sub atomic particle research and when we discovered at atoms- the indivisible were not atmos- as per the Greek term. I see a lot of references here to to a science which over simplified in the black hole phenomena- and also as I have mentioned before the creation of a much smaller black hole. As per our research black holes may emerge as white holes at other locations in the galaxy. The actually feasibility of using them for interstellar travel is limited. We are better off in attempting to fold space or with the point theory where in a multi-dimensional context things are not as they appear. We are like in the classic flatland - not seeing things in a 16-24 dimensional framework with specific dimensional configurations being prime. This is part of our research work and experiments for which we could get time. Obviously the new accelerator in Switzerland I believe- is impressive. And one scientist and his son - who now has grown up on me and graduated college I believe in the field of physics- discuss advanced physics constructs. There are many PHDs at universities who are grant seekers and continually delude the neophytes with high sounding dissertations which are simply not that revolutionary. Forever, the composite behavior of sub-atomic particles versus wave has created the phenomena of a wave traveling through a vacuum. Actually- there is no vacuum in truth. Space is not space- but actually a huge continuim of dark matter which is beyond the fringe of our current university scientists and more in the realm of independent companies work. Prions, viruses, railguns, and high energy ion pulsar type devices which could be placed in orbit or as per railguns- carried by two people and take out a square mile with no radiation- or in the event through the development of especially high energy generating systems which could power an airborne railgun on a Stealth or current craft with skins that wrap light or are invisible to the eye basically except for the glow of the energy grid in darkness- would be a far more productive area of weapon research. As per creating custom black holes- you run the risk of crating a chain reaction which could swallow a solar system. More apes dancing around the fire playing with Uzis. I was discussing QGPB with DOE in 1994. You are 15 years behind what may been bleeding edge technology then- but is a dinosaur now. Medclinician |
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Medclinician
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Posted: January 16 2010 at 5:16am |
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?????? I think scientists Tech want on topic science. No one is impressed by your bedroom conquests. Med |
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Technologist
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Joined: May 05 2009 Location: California Online Status: Offline Posts: 1192 |
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Posted: January 16 2010 at 5:46am |
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Med, Haven't you figured out that my girlfriend typed most of that post and 5 or 6 of my last 20 posts and I don't think she ever talked about anything sexual unless I missed a post.
She has more disrespect for you then I do. I told her that you actually did kick some ass 30 years ago but she says F that. His cage is smaller then his ego. Whatever that means and she wont elaborate. Her nickname for you is JYPIMS. Can you figure out what that means? I guessed saturday night live but I still don't know. Med, Anyone that cares can predate almost all of your posts by grabbing sections that you cut and pasted. You jack other's ideas and call them your own. I could demonstrate this on 90% of your posts. Others call it in incoherent string of thoughts. You string together other's writings that have more intellect then you in their field and call them your own. My grammar sucks... It blows and I totally know it. It's clearly apparent but I can always spot when you splice together 1,2,3,4 or 5 other's writings to call them your own. I remember a saying and it's off some: As bad as I am, My worst is better than your best. |
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Medclinician
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Posted: January 16 2010 at 6:14am |
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Medclinician
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Posted: January 16 2010 at 6:25am |
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Whoa you woke up. Now I have no idea who has posted what of your posts? Wouldn't it be easier to have her just have an account and post under her own handle. Actually the lst post was my personal experience working with Brookhaven labs and one of its founders. There were no cut and pastes. It was all first hand knowledge and reseach we worked on. We will leave it to you guys to post others work. There is nothing like doing the research not with an engine, but yourself. Yep.. you can cut and paste on the Quark Gluon Plasma which I wrote on in 1994. And the prereleases I had from the lab of the project as well as the direction it was headed. But once again.. and now I am not sure who is posting this technology- about particle accelerators. As usual.. no comment at all on the content of my post. I mean besides massive cut and paste are you knowedgeable in this field. How did you do in college Physics.. or your personal ******s with Steve H? I am just posting on black and white holes from people I talked to in Japan and also research we did on sub atomic particles and deciding what machne to use at Brookhaven to possible collect information and analyze it form gold atom collisions. Currently we are submitting more tech and if you would like to contribute to the discussion on sub atomic particle physics without quoting anyone based on your own education and experience- please do so. The creating of mini-black holes is the subject of a lot of fiction. It can be done. But it is not high priority item as a weapon. If you would read some of the recent science journals (I have taken a break for surgery and you know.. the annoying life threatening health issues) but not that much of a break. Write about what you know. And so far, aside from posting that your girl friend who you seemed quite impressed by thinks I am whatever- she can come to D.C. and tell me in person her thoughts on advanced quantum physics. Some of us are scientists. Real ones. And guess what. We are still at it. I didn't cut and paste some of the 1st assembly code form Fujitusu machine with no English instruction or write some of the basics of modern computer graphics from manual. There were no manuals. We did it first. And we are still doing stuff first. So when you wander in an area where all you have is other people words- don't be surprised if you run into people who have actually done it. Med .. not retired |
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