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PANDEMIC ALERT LEVEL
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Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk

Three questions

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pheasant View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pheasant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Three questions
    Posted: September 23 2014 at 4:21pm
(1) Has anyone downloaded the CDC Ebola spread sheet? I cannot open it, but it looks as though they released the model for the public.

"CDC has also released the model as an Excel spreadsheet “so that planners in countries as well as international organizations can model what might happen in different circumstances,” Frieden said. He also said that he doesn't believe the most dire predictions will come to pass. "The model shows, and I don’t think this has been shown by other modeling tools out there, that a surge now can break the back of the epidemic,” he said. Specifically, the epidemic begins to slow down, and will eventually peter out, if approximately 70% of the patients are in medical care facilities or Ebola treatment units, or—if those are all full—are cared for in such a way that they don't transmit the virus to others.

The link is in this article

http://news.sciencemag.org/africa/2014/09/who-cdc-publish-grim-new-ebola-projections

(2) The Buried body's..... does anyone have any input on the risk they pose locally to water tables, and contamination either through seepage or surface contamination? considering the conditions, I would assume their not too deep or too far away from villages, and I also presume the burials are done rather hastily.

(3)What does it mean when the term "there is a risk of Ebola becoming endemic in humans in west Africa"

On question 3, are they referring to carriers?
The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself......FDR
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote onefluover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 8:34pm
(3), means at any given time somebody or rather many somebody's will be infected somewhere in Africa that will keep the virus alive and moving around like a ping-pong ball in a dryer, taking down individuals and clusters of people indefinately but not necessarily massively such as an epidemic. I do not believe endemic in this case means long term asymptomatic carriers.

(2), in the US CDC guidelines, an Ebola victim may be buried but only after being double bagged and placed in a hermetically sealed coffin. Such a coffin is considered fail-safe for above ground viewing. As I've read the way many Africans have been buried may present numerous problems. 6 feet down is pretty deep for most though I don't know about all critters. Fluids in the ground tend to drain straight down, not sideways or up but special circumstances may exist in some of the locations that may expose leakage. The virus without freeze-drying or keeping at very cold temps will corrupt and decompose in days to a few months. I believe. So I don't think there is a longterm risk. But in the days after burial there must be some risk.

And (3), it loaded up in half a second on my iPhone. I used your link. Don't know what to tell you about that.

These are just my opinions based on some facts I'm aware of. Others may have a much more precise or accurate answer to your questions.
"And then there were none."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 8:58pm
Yes it's probably a bad way to go out in life, but not sure there is a good way.  It needs to burn itself out by killing off those three countries.  and that's if they actually stopped the Sawyer chain in Nigeria.   W. Africa is gone either way you look at this one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drumfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 9:58pm
On 3, not that I disagree with you because I don't, out of curiosity why not a asymptomatic "typhoid Mary"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote onefluover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2014 at 1:30pm
Because as I understand it the nature of this virus is to replicate and bud from cells extra extra exponentially, replicate and bud until your body is turned to soup if you can hack it that long. The virus is not programmed to go in and spare some organisms by living in harmony with the host cells. If it did it would be far far less contagious. For one to spread it easily then the virus must have by then replicated into the billions and even trillions, destroying those cells (-hence, soup) along the way. That is not to say that it may mutate to the point of becoming relatively harmless to humans but I think it would be so to most all humans such as Hep A in which case a Mary Mallon would not threaten humanity as say a Pee-Trick Sowyer had done.
"And then there were none."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hazelpad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2014 at 3:24pm
Asymptomatic individuals have been found in previous outbreaks. Also natural immunity to the virus has been studied. Here is 2 studies of interest.

Study 1

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(00)02405-3/fulltext

The data in this paper is from 2 Gabon outbreaks of Ebola Zaire (1996). 119 patients with clinical symptoms, and a further 24 cases of proven seroconversion but asymptomatic infection. So about 1 in 6.

These 24 asymptomatic patients did not have prior immunity to Ebola as they initially produced IgM. ( if IgM antibodies predominate then this is an earlier primary immune response, an initial exposure not an IgG memory response).

So infection in non immune induviduals need not produce disease.

Disappointingly the paper did not address if asymptomatic infected people could shed and pass on the virus, which I think would have been a key question.


So there is a possibility that asymptomatic infected superspreaders exist....not a nice thought...hopefully viral load and shedding would be too low in asymptomatic carriers, but perhaps something they should be looking at.


STUDY 2
This one was done in 2010

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0009126


So this was a large 3 year serological survey of rural populations in Gabon. It tested 4,349 individuals from 220 villages for the presence of ZEBOV-specific IgG ( indicating a past exposure to Ebola). Found unexpected high total overall seroprevalence of 15.3%. The seroprevalence rate was significantly higher in forested areas (19.4%) than in other ecosystems, namely grassland (12.4%), savannah (10.5%), and lakeland (2.%). Authors then conducted other tests to make sure the specificity and functionality of the villager's anti-ZEBOV IgG was genuine. Paper concluded that a large fraction of the human population living in forested areas of Gabon had both natural humoral and cellular immunity to ZEBOV.

So all these people had previous exposure but no sickness and were now in effect naturally vaccinated, so what was going on. The authors concluded the high prevalence of “immune” persons suggests a common source of human exposure such as fruits contaminated by bat saliva. This low level of exposure in theory could generate a protective immunisation, but not cause disease. This means new insights into ZEBOV circulation and the existence of natural protective immunization.

My one criticism is they did not do a sample population from a urban European population which would have added to their natural environmental exposure immunization theory. Also the saliva on fruit is just a theory not proven or tested yet.

Also adds another worrisome slant, were it to ever reach a European or US or Asian population with perhaps less natural immunity. ( as far as we know we don't live near Ebola infected bats)....Well I will leave that thought there....let's hope we have other genetic traits that may protect us.

So in summary these papers are actually talking about 2 different things. The first is individuals who get infected during an outbreak but despite having no pre existing immunity they dont get sick. The second is about levels of natural immunity in a studied population.

Anyway....I am boring you now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2014 at 3:43pm
If I find it, I'll post a link - back when I started getting the pandemic jitters and was reading everything that came my way, I found an article that talked about genetic diversity putting a limit on the number of people that would succumb to a given pathogen. In the example given, a group tested after a flu outbreak had a significant number of people with bloodwork suggesting they had been exposed to the virus and an immune response had taken place, but they couldn't recall ever having had any symptoms. I think it was typically about 50% of the group tested that had apparently dealt with the virus without ever knowing they'd been exposed. Maybe that's what they were seeing in Gabon.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arirish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2014 at 3:46pm
Not boring at all! Very interesting and thought provoking! Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote onefluover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2014 at 3:49pm
No. Not boring me. I didn't know. Well I did know a little about one of these studies but not enough I could remember to use from it today. But now I can. It appears that up to 1/5 of the rural population have been exposed in some way and became immune. But I don't understand or see how they could then spread the viable virus to others if all they harbor are the antibodies. Maybe they are the key to a vaccine or transfusions if that can ever be possible. Maybe they can be super-spreaders if they are reinfected, safe themselves but for a limited time are able to shed viable virus?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote onefluover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2014 at 4:05pm
In 1990/1991 I was an immunized doner. About ten gallons of immunized plasma in one year. They told me I was either born immune, vaccinated or had been exposed and became immune, to Hep B. so they ran me through the two or three vaccine regiment (can't remember) getting my titer up to 500,000 and drew about a liter of plasma twice a week for the next year. If I remember correctly this is the only vaccine in the world that uses human blood to create. Or did. These immune people in the forest, their blood should be carefully studied for maybe making a vaccine. If it can be done and ebola escapes Africa then these extremely poor people should be paid handsomely for selling their life saving blood. They need the money. Let the rich people donate blood. Let the poor people sell it. Whatever but get er done.
"And then there were none."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hazelpad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2014 at 6:36pm
I have a good life, I like to go out, to have fun, shop for clothes, eat good food, exercise a little, argue with the weeds, tidy the house a little,.... well perhaps that last statement is a bit if an exaggeration.......however when it comes to lifescience and medicine I am a complete nerd....and if I could go into a phone booth and spin around three times I would sadly come out wearing a lab coat.


The immune system is a dynamic system, and is continually being shaped on both an individual and population level by past and current antigen exposures. Trying to study the system is like trying to study smoke, smoke is grey smells a bit, but turn away for a few seconds and look the dam stuff has now turned white and is being blown to one side. That's your immune system always reacting to the environment it is in. Of course their are statistical models that can be applied to complex systems to find predictability in the unpredictable....but save me from trying.

So I guess we can not predict what would happen to genetically different populations if Ebola were to hit. Past diseases in a population can be responsible for a genetic shift that may conferred a degree of resistance in that population to a new infection. West African populations have different diseases and environmental factors shaping their immune systems than we do. Can't even guess.

Onefluover.....hey I got Ig for HepB after a hospital accident with a Hep B patient. It came from America ( can't use UK stuff because of vCJD). Was in 2008 so bit of a time lag however you never know......you could have saved my life....THANK YOU....we could be blood brothers...except I am a she. Now I hope you lived a good wholesome clean life before giving me your blood products.... don't tell me, leave me ignorant.

Anyway I will stop prattling on.

Gnight from UK

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drumfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2014 at 8:54pm
Hazelpad thought provoking replies.
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