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Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk

What can be done to Calm Consumer Fears when the v

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Dobrdale View Drop Down
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    Posted: March 21 2006 at 2:21pm
My Fear is that  Consumers will stop eating  Chicken when the FLU arrives.  This will greatly affect the poultry, corn, and soybean markets, as well as all rural areas.  We must put together information for consumers that will tell them that if  certain food preparations rules are followed that their chicken meals will be perfectly safe to eat.  How do we develop this information and then how do we get the National Media to promote this information? 

Lets Brain Storm this very important subject.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scotty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2006 at 2:30pm
I believe that people are well aware that cooked chicken is safe, but in their own minds it is only safe if they do the cooking. This means that they must handle potentially lethal raw chicken and equally lethal packaging that they must then dispose of safely.
 
The other thing to bear in mind is that the consumer is free to make a five second decision on their choice of meat. They cannot relate this impulse with the catastrophic consequences that would arise if every other consumer made the same choice. To them it is just a chicken.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2006 at 2:33pm
I guess the main problem the poultry industry will have to overcome has to do with trust.  For example, would ill chickens be secretly sent to market for public consumption so that there would be less financial risk/loss to the poultry producer/farmer?  If consumers can feel confident that the producers would not do this, that would help.  For myself, I look where the chicken is coming from.  I am buying chicken from local producers who have good track records regarding sanitation.  I did the same thing pertaining to beef, pork and other meats as well.  (I have been doing this for years - I like to know where my food is coming from.)  My 2 cents, for what it is worth.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scotty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2006 at 2:47pm
There was a move by small producers in the E.U. to have their poultry stamped and verified as never having been vaccinated. It was thought that this would go some way to reassuring consumers. As a consumer I must say that this would have attracted me towards the product and I would have been willing to pay a hefty premium for this guarantee.
 
Sadly the E.U. realised that this would prevent major producers from shifting potentially sick birds. A law was passed making such labelling illegal. This might work in mainland Europe but the British consumer has always preferred mass slaughter to innoculation.
 
I know that its a tragedy for the agricultural community but the consumer is both fickle and skittish. It costs them nothing to move to another product.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JaxMax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2006 at 12:13pm
Your fear is well founded. I was buying 5 pounds of chicken breasts per week from Sams. I loved chicken and rice, but I totally stopped because of the Bird Flu, when, unbelievably, the Bush administration (which I support) had a proposed USDA agricultural regulation that US chicken could be processed in China! Now I forbid everyone in my family to eat chicken, or at least I will not pay for the chicken. I am sure they sneak around and eat it, but not at home.
He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.Proverbs 13:20, The Bible
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dobrdale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2006 at 12:17pm
We know from study of the HIV organism, that the virus is no longer viable in a human body in  just a matter of hours after death of the carrier person.  This has meant that if you go to your dentist for the very first appointment in the morning you will not be infected by the HIV organism even if the dentist does not autoclave his instruments used the day before.

The BSE organism is completely different.  It can remain viable on instruments even at temperatures that will melt steel.

So the question is how long does the virus remain viable in a dead chicken?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SUNSET Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2006 at 12:26pm
         Dobrdale.........the people WILL stop eating chichen no matter what the gov. does.........even if the media puts the word out, day in and day out.........people would rether be safe than sorry.........and nobody is going to change that.....its sad but true......i will be buying chicken cause it will be cheap and dont forget the eggs.......that i might not buy, have my own for now, but they will go when they start killing chickens in the us...SUNSET
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sunset Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2006 at 12:29pm
 i dont know what i did wrong but my post went to the wrong place and i am not a guest.i will have to learn this forum ALL OVER again    SUNSET
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Sunset you need to go and sign in. That's why your a guest. Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scotty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2006 at 1:06pm
The post was actually asking for some sort of marketing spin that would sell chicken. I don't think that spin will work in this case. I think that the poultry industry needs to actually make the product, cooked or raw, safe to handle. (In fact rather than in theory)
 
It looks like the guy is asking for help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scotty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2006 at 1:26pm
Not asking for spin but science.  One of the questions I propose is: How long is the virus viable in a dead chicken body?

So far it seams that the only people who have contracted this organism have had direct contact with live birds. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scotty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2006 at 2:01pm
This one has been done to death. Ha. Sorry that wasn't intentional. If I gave you my opinion in print it would kill the industry faster the the virus so I had better say nothing. There is detailed info somewhere on this site. Just click search. Trouble is, I don't think that you will like the answer. Sorry.
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In Azerbaijan, they are looking at a cluster of illness that might be due to plucking the feathers off of dead swans.  These birds were dead and the WHO thinks the women and girls got sick by just plucking the feathers.  That may mean if the bird is infected and goes into the food chain, the disease may be spread by preparing it or eating it (if it is not well cooked - for both meat and eggs).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grey_whiskers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2006 at 11:13pm
You said that BSE remains viable at temperatures that will melt steel.

Please provide a reference, that strains credulity.
(Think of what atmospheric oxygen does in the presence
of organic material at (roughly) 2500 F...

Cheers!
The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TomMI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2006 at 6:26am

Thank you So much RicheeRich!!!  This just goes to show how "quitely" things go on in the background. I wonder if we can correlate this downware trend to people "quitely" prepping as they are "quietly" reducing their poultry consumption?

A sensible man watches for problems ahead and prepares to meet them. The simpleton never looks and suffers the consequences.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dobrdale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2006 at 6:36am
RicheeRich ----  GKIS has been declining since june of 05, PPC has been declining since March 05 and Tyson did not start declining until Nov. 05.  The worry to me is that Brazil Chicken consumption has really declined and this has affected the Corn and Soybean  markets.  relatively little of the considerable Brazilian Corn is exported to world markets but their soybeans are a big trade faactor.  This all will have a big reaction in the USA and as the Agricultural Community goes so goes the rest of the Economy.

The World Health Organization states that Chicken Cooked to 70 degrees  or 158 degrees Farenheit will make meat safely edible.  It has to be at this temperature long enough so that there is no red tinge left.

This still leaves the question of how long the virus can live on a dead chicken corpse.  It is thought that some people contracted the virus by handling bird feathers.  But did they handle them an hour after death or was it a week or more later?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dobrdale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2006 at 7:05am
Grey Whiskers ---- The very high temperature to kill the BSE "prion protein" was reported in several medical journals as well as the Wall St. Journal seveal years ago.  I can not find  a link with a quick search.   But the report was to the effect that to destroy these "prion proteins" on Veterinarian medical type instruments would have to be heated to such an extent that they would no longer be usable as tools.  In other words the heat would change the molecular structure to such an extent that the instruments were useless.

This also ment that  cooking of human food garbage and then feeding this garbage to swine and other farm animals was no longer a safe practice.  Before this cooking of garbage was held out as a way of making garbage safe.  It also ment that using waste products from the Slaughter Houses as food for farm animals was a superior way of spreading the BSE disease, no matter how well cooked and processed.
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Originally posted by Scotty Scotty wrote:

Not asking for spin but science.  One of the questions I propose is: How long is the virus viable in a dead chicken body?

So far it seams that the only people who have contracted this organism have had direct contact with live birds. 


    

But haven't quite alot of animals dies after eating dead birds, birds that died of H5N1?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RicheeRich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2006 at 5:11pm
If infected birds can be eaten after heating sufficiently, then why are the millions of culled chickens and turkeys being dumped into huge ditches for burial, instead of cooking them up and feeding the starving populations of those (or other) countries.
 
Heck, for that matter, I should be able to work quite a deal on buying some of those dead birds (lets say at about one dollar per 100 pounds), then getting a Budweiser truck over at the house, and having one HELL of a barbeque!!!!!
 
Any volunteers out there want to come to my house for some free chicken?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omega Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2006 at 5:15pm

Here's a very poignant news story posted by someone else in one of the front page news threads... really sad.





Originally posted by 7Strong 7Strong wrote:


In Egypt, virus outbreak leaves many jobless

By Omar Sinan

The Associated Press


CAIRO — Jobless and broke, Hamada Ismail called off his wedding and broke up with his fiancee — all because of bird flu.


Its outbreak last month in Egypt has forced the closing of hundreds of poultry stores, including the one Ismail had worked at for years, slaughtering chickens. It also has put hundreds of poultry farms and restaurants out of business in a country where unemployment already is sky-high.


"Of course I can't afford it," Ismail, in stained clothes and half-torn black sandals, said recently of his now-cancelled wedding. "I cannot even feed myself," said the visibly angry young man.


Egypt discovered its first bird flu case last month, so far reporting a total of four cases of the virus in humans.


It has since joined Turkey and Iraq as the only Middle Eastern nations where a human has died of the virus — in Egypt's case, a woman who had reportedly been raising chickens in her home.


The outbreak in Egypt, a nation of some 73 million people, has decimated the vital and profitable poultry industry, with hundreds of poultry farms going out of business and slaughter houses and restaurants shuttering down for lack of business. The crisis has put tens of thousands of people out of work, further tightening a job market strained by an unemployment rate thought to hover at around 20 per cent.


The government has pledged financial compensations for those whose livelihoods have been affected by the bird flu outbreak, but many complain that they are yet to learn of how to claim the money.


The crisis also has sparked a spate of street protests by hundreds of people employed in the industry and angered by government plans to continue culling birds en masse and allowing more frozen poultry imports.


The problem is perhaps best manifested in the chicken market of the Migharbeleen district in the eastern part of Cairo, one of the city's best known and poorest commercial areas.


Most poultry shops there have been closed by authorities or banned from selling live birds. The few that remain open sell frozen chicken, but are doing little business because Egyptians are, by and large, averse to frozen foods. Stray cats, of which tens of thousands freely roam Cairo, continue to frequent the live poultry stores still open, hoping to still feast on the innards of freshly slaughtered chicken.


Hani Abdulati, owner of Migharbeleen's Doha Birds store, never thought the day would come when he sold frozen, rather than live, chicken.


But now, he thinks it's better than going out of business.


"I know that Egyptians prefer buying fresh, not frozen, meat, but I don't want to end up stealing to make ends meet," said Abdulati, 32. "I am just trying to feed my children." Abdulati, whose family has been in the live poultry business for decades, says he is selling an average of eight frozen chickens a day, compared to at least 100 live birds a day, before the bird flu outbreak.


"We have a serious problem here," he said. "I am afraid I will be forced to close the shop if the situation stays as it is. Even the cats are affected by this crisis, not just humans," said Abdulati, pointing to several cats sleeping inside empty bird cages at his store.


Umm Mohammed, a 38-year-old housewife, walked into the store later, looked inside the fridge where frozen chicken are stored and then shook her head in disapproval.




     
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If it is safe to eat infected chicken provided it is cooked properly, I have to wonder why they keep culling chickens in areas where people are starving.  Why not cook the meat for the people in africa who have no food?
 
There has to be something more to this.
 
cisco
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dobrdale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2006 at 8:06am
Cisco --- It  seems strange to me as well.  That is why I am calling for an official study on this.   Perhaps it is because the laboratory procedure for testing the presence of the Virus is very time consuming and is also time consuming.   So it is apparently more than growing a virus is a petry dish and looking at it in a few hours.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omega Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2006 at 8:08am
Maybe it simply is too dangerous to prepare - airborne virus and all. Maybe the final cooked or canned meat is safe to eat, but meantime all the food preparers have died.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2006 at 8:13am

My heart just breaks reading about those people that are now out of jobs...if avain flu has not gone H2H...it has started its deadly force in ways we cannot fathom already...and guess who is getting hit the hardest this early in the game...The Poor....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2006 at 8:34am
AND YOU WANT ME TO COOK CHICKEN
IN ALL Fairness its not me who will be hurting the poultry industry its  the avian flu that will destroy the industry .  I am just a mom who will protect her child by not cooking chicken.
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Originally posted by Dobrdale Dobrdale wrote:

My Fear is that  Consumers will stop eating  Chicken when the FLU arrives.  This will greatly affect the poultry, corn, and soybean markets, as well as all rural areas.  We must put together information for consumers that will tell them that if  certain food preparations rules are followed that their chicken meals will be perfectly safe to eat.  How do we develop this information and then how do we get the National Media to promote this information? 

Lets Brain Storm this very important subject.
 Dobrdale,
 
I don't think many people, at least in this country, will stop eating chicken. Not because they'll realize that properly preparing and cooking their poultry will be safe, but because I really don't think they view the chicken they're eating in fast food places places like KFC was ever alive. 
 
About 10 years ago my wife had a bunch of family over for Thanksgiving. She decided to go with a freshly slaughtered turkey from a local turkey farm. The day before the holiday, the turkey was slaughtered and processed and were we given precise instructions on how to cook the bird. My wife prepared the meal exactly as the farm suggested and let me tell you the bird was delicious - it was the best turkey I had ever eaten.
 
At the end of the meal my wife told the rest of the family where we had gotten the bird. They were horrified, they thought we were cruel, mean and that we had played a rotten trick on them. Some guests actually said they were getting sick at the thought of eating that live bird. I was amazed, I asked them where the hell they thought the turkeys from Krogers came from................they told me they didn't really associate the turkeys in stores as being as real or as alive, as a real turkey from a turkey farm - I just shook my head in amazement.
 
Needless to say I thought they were all nuts....................but this leads me into my point. In a flu epidemic, my guess is that people won't associate the chicken from KFC, restaurants or grocery stores as being a potential problem, for they'll have a hard time in believing that the chicken in those places isn't man made or somehow made out of plastic. Tongue  No, I think the chicken industry is safe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2006 at 10:50am
The stupidity in people never ceases to amaze me!!Ouch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dobrdale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 1:47pm
Retiredcopper ---  I have had some what similar experiences with  family members.  That is why I have thought that this  discussion of H5N1 Flu discussion is  important.   Often simple things will keep you safe from infection.   Think of the Black Plague which was controlable by controling Rodents which carried the fleas which carried the Plague.  Or Yellow feaver, or Malaria and many other dieases.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dobrdale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 1:55pm
Femvet  ----  One might say that people are stupid or perhaps they never thought that what was covered in High School had any validity and turned off their minds to what the biology and chemistry teacher was talking about.

In my case I left High School back in 1953.  Our teachers covered many of these immunology situations which are not rocket science but just basic cleanliness paramaters. 

Thanks for commenting.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by Dobrdale Dobrdale wrote:

Grey Whiskers ---- The very high temperature to kill the BSE "prion
protein" was reported in several medical journals as well as the Wall
St. Journal seveal years ago.  I can not find  a link with a
quick search.   But the report was to the effect that to destroy
these "prion proteins" on Veterinarian medical type instruments would
have to be heated to such an extent that they would no longer be usable
as tools.  In other words the heat would change the molecular
structure to such an extent that the instruments were useless.


    
A point of clarification. Prion's (entangled proteins) are not a viruses. Albert might want to create a 2nd forum for it.

I'd rather take my chances with Bird Flu than BSE. Half and hour under gamma radiation can't kill Prions. Normal sterilization with a hospital autoclave can't kill them. They truly are the Borg.



    
   
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dobrdale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 2:15pm
RICK ----  Good point about BSE Prion's.  I should not have assumed that people knew about the unusual Prion's and how they are different from the usual vectors of:  a.)Bacterias and b.)Viruses
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JaxMax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 2:24pm
Dobrdale-
 
If I owned chicken farms, I would mimic what the Canadians did with SARS.
 
The Canadian leadership went to eat at a Chinese restaurant. I would follow these steps:
 
1. Egg whites are a perfect protein- get endorsements from pro atheletes who actually eat egg whites for muscle development
 
2. Stress all US chicken is from the US.
 
3. Interview many scientists who solemnly atone that H5N1 can not survive cooking. You need someone with a gray beard and mathematical formulas on the blackboard.
 
4. The Presidential limo shows up unannounced at Kentucky Fried Chicken. The cameras roll.The President eats both original and spicy.Or better yet, show the entire cabinet and the President eating KFC and Popeyes, with the boxes on the table, at a cabinet meeting.
 
 
He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.Proverbs 13:20, The Bible
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 3:43pm
ok that was 2 years ago......what is the new PM doing now....hummm Paul Martin is gone and now we have ......Steven harper
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Muskrat-
 
I thought it was very brave of the Canadian PM to eat in a Chinese restaurant in the middle of SARS plague in Canada. It made big news here in Florida because we have so many Canadian guests.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dobrdale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2006 at 8:37am
H5N1 has not been noted as an air borne agent.  Looks like the threat will be  with us when that type of transmission is found.  In the mean time simple things like limiting person to person contact will control the disease.  Much like the HIV virus not being air borne but rather requiring person to person physicl contact .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JaxMax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2006 at 8:57am
Dobrdale-
 
Is the fear of pandemic effecting your business?
He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.Proverbs 13:20, The Bible
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tonseck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2006 at 9:15am
Originally posted by Dobrdale Dobrdale wrote:

H5N1 has not been noted as an air borne agent.



You might want to check your facts in that.  AI is definitely spread by airborne particles.
Don't be afraid to be afraid; it keeps you on your toes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2006 at 9:34am
Hello I am writing a report on the bird flu a project for school and a question I cant seem to get a straight answer to is how long the virus lives after the host dies; and the comment about the steralitazition of the medical tools even bleach kills the HIV  why wouldnt they bleach the equiptment befor heating; and how long does the meat have to be cooked to be safe if it ever is?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JaxMax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2006 at 10:13am
Gene-
 
Generally a NORMAL flu virus will survive 48 hours outside the host at room temperature. See http://www.mayoclinic.com/
 
Then click on "flu basics". Then click on "Colds and Flu basic questions" then click on "how long can flu survivie outside the body". This means on doornobs, telephones, computer keyboards etc., so you should be careful to wash your hands.
 
The H5N1 can survive for at least thirty days if refrigerated, such as on eggs.
 
You should be able to click on the underlined portion and go directly to the website.
 
The World Health Organization has specific directions for cooking the chicken. Also you could check the United States Department of Agriculture.
 
Good luck on your report.
He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.Proverbs 13:20, The Bible
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2006 at 10:26am
thanks JaxMax
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JaxMax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2006 at 10:41am
Gene-
 
CIDRAP posted an update today that answers all your questions inone article. States the meat must be cooked to 70 degrees centigrade.
He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.Proverbs 13:20, The Bible
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hotair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2006 at 1:08pm
Dobrdale-- the thing that bothers me about eating chicken is handling the raw chicken before it is cooked.  Even under normal circumstances, everything that raw chicken touches needs to be washed with hot soap and water. With H5N1, being an airborn virus, couldn't we inhale it ffrom the raw chicken?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2006 at 3:58pm
JAXMAX  ---  Well yes it is affecting my business.  We raise Corn and Soybeans and the prices of these commodities are not whare we would like them to be.  Many normal export customers are severely cutting back on their normal purchases because their populations are stopping thier consumption of poultry products.  If there is an out break in the USA prices will really tank.  Then because we are in the USA and the when any sneezes the Fedeal Treasury opens and out pours your tax money. 

Remember this Truth:  Governments can tax in 2 ways.  By levying a TAX or by printing money and causing inflation which reduces the value of the Currency.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carpenter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2006 at 4:03pm
Carpenter  --- The WHO indicates that the H5N1 virus seems to get located deep in the lungs.  They indicated that most flu viruses locate in the upper Bronchial tubes and are easily expelled by caughing.  While deep infection sights keep viruses with in the lungs rather than expelling them.

Is this true then there is less to worry about.
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