Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk |
What can be done to Calm Consumer Fears when the v |
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Dobrdale
Valued Member Joined: March 21 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11 |
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Posted: March 21 2006 at 2:21pm |
My Fear is that Consumers will stop eating Chicken when the FLU arrives. This will greatly affect the poultry, corn, and soybean markets, as well as all rural areas. We
must put together information for consumers that will tell them that
if certain food preparations rules are followed that their
chicken meals will be perfectly safe to eat. How do we develop this information and then how do we get the National Media to promote this information?
Lets Brain Storm this very important subject. |
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Scotty
Adviser Group Joined: March 06 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 846 |
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I believe that people are well aware that cooked chicken is safe, but in their own minds it is only safe if they do the cooking. This means that they must handle potentially lethal raw chicken and equally lethal packaging that they must then dispose of safely.
The other thing to bear in mind is that the consumer is free to make a five second decision on their choice of meat. They cannot relate this impulse with the catastrophic consequences that would arise if every other consumer made the same choice. To them it is just a chicken.
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I guess the main problem the poultry industry will have to overcome has to do with trust. For example, would ill chickens be secretly sent to market for public consumption so that there would be less financial risk/loss to the poultry producer/farmer? If consumers can feel confident that the producers would not do this, that would help. For myself, I look where the chicken is coming from. I am buying chicken from local producers who have good track records regarding sanitation. I did the same thing pertaining to beef, pork and other meats as well. (I have been doing this for years - I like to know where my food is coming from.) My 2 cents, for what it is worth.
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Scotty
Adviser Group Joined: March 06 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 846 |
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There was a move by small producers in the E.U. to have their poultry stamped and verified as never having been vaccinated. It was thought that this would go some way to reassuring consumers. As a consumer I must say that this would have attracted me towards the product and I would have been willing to pay a hefty premium for this guarantee.
Sadly the E.U. realised that this would prevent major producers from shifting potentially sick birds. A law was passed making such labelling illegal. This might work in mainland Europe but the British consumer has always preferred mass slaughter to innoculation.
I know that its a tragedy for the agricultural community but the consumer is both fickle and skittish. It costs them nothing to move to another product.
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JaxMax
Adviser Group Joined: March 01 2006 Status: Offline Points: 801 |
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Your fear is well founded. I was buying 5 pounds of chicken breasts per week from Sams. I loved chicken and rice, but I totally stopped because of the Bird Flu, when, unbelievably, the Bush administration (which I support) had a proposed USDA agricultural regulation that US chicken could be processed in China! Now I forbid everyone in my family to eat chicken, or at least I will not pay for the chicken. I am sure they sneak around and eat it, but not at home.
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He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.Proverbs 13:20, The Bible
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Dobrdale
Valued Member Joined: March 21 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11 |
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We know
from study of the HIV organism, that the virus is no longer viable in a
human body in just a matter of hours after death of the carrier
person. This has meant that if you go to your dentist for the
very first appointment in the morning you will not be infected by the
HIV organism even if the dentist does not autoclave his instruments
used the day before.
The BSE organism is completely different. It can remain viable on instruments even at temperatures that will melt steel. So the question is how long does the virus remain viable in a dead chicken? |
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SUNSET
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Dobrdale.........the people WILL stop eating chichen no matter what the gov. does.........even if the media puts the word out, day in and day out.........people would rether be safe than sorry.........and nobody is going to change that.....its sad but true......i will be buying chicken cause it will be cheap and dont forget the eggs.......that i might not buy, have my own for now, but they will go when they start killing chickens in the us...SUNSET
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sunset
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i dont know what i did wrong but my post went to the wrong place and i am not a guest.i will have to learn this forum ALL OVER again SUNSET
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Sunset you need to go and sign in. That's why your a guest.
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Scotty
Adviser Group Joined: March 06 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 846 |
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The post was actually asking for some sort of marketing spin that would sell chicken. I don't think that spin will work in this case. I think that the poultry industry needs to actually make the product, cooked or raw, safe to handle. (In fact rather than in theory)
It looks like the guy is asking for help.
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Scotty
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Not asking for spin but science. One of the questions I propose is: How long is the virus viable in a dead chicken body?
So far it seams that the only people who have contracted this organism have had direct contact with live birds. |
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Scotty
Adviser Group Joined: March 06 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 846 |
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This one has been done to death. Ha. Sorry that wasn't intentional. If I gave you my opinion in print it would kill the industry faster the the virus so I had better say nothing. There is detailed info somewhere on this site. Just click search. Trouble is, I don't think that you will like the answer. Sorry.
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In Azerbaijan, they are looking at a cluster of illness that might be due to plucking the feathers off of dead swans. These birds were dead and the WHO thinks the women and girls got sick by just plucking the feathers. That may mean if the bird is infected and goes into the food chain, the disease may be spread by preparing it or eating it (if it is not well cooked - for both meat and eggs).
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grey_whiskers
Valued Member Joined: March 19 2006 Status: Offline Points: 32 |
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You said that BSE remains viable at temperatures that will melt steel.
Please provide a reference, that strains credulity. (Think of what atmospheric oxygen does in the presence of organic material at (roughly) 2500 F... Cheers! |
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The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.
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RicheeRich
Valued Member Joined: February 08 2006 Status: Offline Points: 203 |
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Dobrdale: What do you mean by "when flu arrives"? Take a look at these: Tyson Foods:
Pilgrim's Pride:
Gold Kist:
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TomMI
Adviser Group Joined: February 28 2006 Status: Offline Points: 194 |
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Thank you So much RicheeRich!!! This just goes to show how "quitely" things go on in the background. I wonder if we can correlate this downware trend to people "quitely" prepping as they are "quietly" reducing their poultry consumption? |
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A sensible man watches for problems ahead and prepares to meet them. The simpleton never looks and suffers the consequences.
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Dobrdale
Valued Member Joined: March 21 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11 |
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RicheeRich ---- GKIS has been declining since june of 05, PPC has
been declining since March 05 and Tyson did not start declining until
Nov. 05. The worry to me is that Brazil Chicken consumption has
really declined and this has affected the Corn and Soybean
markets. relatively little of the considerable Brazilian Corn is
exported to world markets but their soybeans are a big trade
faactor. This all will have a big reaction in the USA and as the
Agricultural Community goes so goes the rest of the Economy.
The World Health Organization states that Chicken Cooked to 70 degrees or 158 degrees Farenheit will make meat safely edible. It has to be at this temperature long enough so that there is no red tinge left. This still leaves the question of how long the virus can live on a dead chicken corpse. It is thought that some people contracted the virus by handling bird feathers. But did they handle them an hour after death or was it a week or more later? |
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Dobrdale
Valued Member Joined: March 21 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11 |
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Grey Whiskers ---- The very high temperature to kill the BSE "prion
protein" was reported in several medical journals as well as the Wall
St. Journal seveal years ago. I can not find a link with a
quick search. But the report was to the effect that to destroy
these "prion proteins" on Veterinarian medical type instruments would
have to be heated to such an extent that they would no longer be usable
as tools. In other words the heat would change the molecular
structure to such an extent that the instruments were useless.
This also ment that cooking of human food garbage and then feeding this garbage to swine and other farm animals was no longer a safe practice. Before this cooking of garbage was held out as a way of making garbage safe. It also ment that using waste products from the Slaughter Houses as food for farm animals was a superior way of spreading the BSE disease, no matter how well cooked and processed. |
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omega
Valued Member Joined: March 16 2006 Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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But haven't quite alot of animals dies after eating dead birds, birds that died of H5N1? |
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RicheeRich
Valued Member Joined: February 08 2006 Status: Offline Points: 203 |
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If infected birds can be eaten after heating sufficiently, then why are the millions of culled chickens and turkeys being dumped into huge ditches for burial, instead of cooking them up and feeding the starving populations of those (or other) countries.
Heck, for that matter, I should be able to work quite a deal on buying some of those dead birds (lets say at about one dollar per 100 pounds), then getting a Budweiser truck over at the house, and having one HELL of a barbeque!!!!!
Any volunteers out there want to come to my house for some free chicken?
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omega
Valued Member Joined: March 16 2006 Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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Here's a very poignant news story posted by someone else in one of the front page news threads... really sad.
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Cisco
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If it is safe to eat infected chicken provided it is cooked properly, I have to wonder why they keep culling chickens in areas where people are starving. Why not cook the meat for the people in africa who have no food?
There has to be something more to this.
cisco
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Dobrdale
Valued Member Joined: March 21 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11 |
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Cisco --- It seems strange to me as well. That is why I am
calling for an official study on this. Perhaps it is
because the laboratory procedure for testing the presence of the Virus
is very time consuming and is also time consuming. So it is
apparently more than growing a virus is a petry dish and looking at it
in a few hours.
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omega
Valued Member Joined: March 16 2006 Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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Maybe it simply is too dangerous to prepare - airborne virus and all. Maybe the final cooked or canned meat is safe to eat, but meantime all the food preparers have died.
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My heart just breaks reading about those people that are now out of jobs...if avain flu has not gone H2H...it has started its deadly force in ways we cannot fathom already...and guess who is getting hit the hardest this early in the game...The Poor.... |
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AND YOU WANT ME TO COOK CHICKEN
IN ALL Fairness its not me who will be hurting the poultry industry its the avian flu that will destroy the industry . I am just a mom who will protect her child by not cooking chicken.
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Dobrdale,
I don't think many people, at least in this country, will stop eating chicken. Not because they'll realize that properly preparing and cooking their poultry will be safe, but because I really don't think they view the chicken they're eating in fast food places places like KFC was ever alive.
About 10 years ago my wife had a bunch of family over for Thanksgiving. She decided to go with a freshly slaughtered turkey from a local turkey farm. The day before the holiday, the turkey was slaughtered and processed and were we given precise instructions on how to cook the bird. My wife prepared the meal exactly as the farm suggested and let me tell you the bird was delicious - it was the best turkey I had ever eaten.
At the end of the meal my wife told the rest of the family where we had gotten the bird. They were horrified, they thought we were cruel, mean and that we had played a rotten trick on them. Some guests actually said they were getting sick at the thought of eating that live bird. I was amazed, I asked them where the hell they thought the turkeys from Krogers came from................they told me they didn't really associate the turkeys in stores as being as real or as alive, as a real turkey from a turkey farm - I just shook my head in amazement.
Needless to say I thought they were all nuts....................but this leads me into my point. In a flu epidemic, my guess is that people won't associate the chicken from KFC, restaurants or grocery stores as being a potential problem, for they'll have a hard time in believing that the chicken in those places isn't man made or somehow made out of plastic. No, I think the chicken industry is safe.
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The stupidity in people never ceases to amaze me!!
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Dobrdale
Valued Member Joined: March 21 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11 |
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Retiredcopper --- I have had some what similar experiences
with family members. That is why I have thought that
this discussion of H5N1 Flu
discussion is important. Often simple things will
keep you safe from infection. Think of the Black Plague
which was controlable by controling Rodents which carried the fleas
which carried the Plague. Or Yellow feaver, or Malaria and many
other dieases.
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Dobrdale
Valued Member Joined: March 21 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11 |
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Femvet ---- One might say that people are stupid or perhaps
they never thought that what was covered in High School had any
validity and turned off their minds to what the biology and chemistry
teacher was talking about.
In my case I left High School back in 1953. Our teachers covered many of these immunology situations which are not rocket science but just basic cleanliness paramaters. Thanks for commenting. |
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A point of clarification. Prion's (entangled proteins) are not a viruses. Albert might want to create a 2nd forum for it. I'd rather take my chances with Bird Flu than BSE. Half and hour under gamma radiation can't kill Prions. Normal sterilization with a hospital autoclave can't kill them. They truly are the Borg. |
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Dobrdale
Valued Member Joined: March 21 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11 |
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RICK ---- Good point about BSE Prion's. I should not have
assumed that people knew about the unusual Prion's and how they are
different from the usual vectors of: a.)Bacterias and b.)Viruses
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JaxMax
Adviser Group Joined: March 01 2006 Status: Offline Points: 801 |
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Dobrdale-
If I owned chicken farms, I would mimic what the Canadians did with SARS.
The Canadian leadership went to eat at a Chinese restaurant. I would follow these steps:
1. Egg whites are a perfect protein- get endorsements from pro atheletes who actually eat egg whites for muscle development
2. Stress all US chicken is from the US.
3. Interview many scientists who solemnly atone that H5N1 can not survive cooking. You need someone with a gray beard and mathematical formulas on the blackboard.
4. The Presidential limo shows up unannounced at Kentucky Fried Chicken. The cameras roll.The President eats both original and spicy.Or better yet, show the entire cabinet and the President eating KFC and Popeyes, with the boxes on the table, at a cabinet meeting.
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He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.Proverbs 13:20, The Bible
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ok that was 2 years ago......what is the new PM doing now....hummm Paul Martin is gone and now we have ......Steven harper
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JaxMax
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Muskrat-
I thought it was very brave of the Canadian PM to eat in a Chinese restaurant in the middle of SARS plague in Canada. It made big news here in Florida because we have so many Canadian guests.
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Dobrdale
Valued Member Joined: March 21 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11 |
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H5N1 has not been noted as an air borne agent. Looks like the
threat will be with us when that type of transmission is
found. In the mean time simple things like limiting person to
person contact will control the disease. Much like the HIV virus
not being air borne but rather requiring person to person physicl
contact .
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JaxMax
Adviser Group Joined: March 01 2006 Status: Offline Points: 801 |
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Dobrdale-
Is the fear of pandemic effecting your business?
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He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.Proverbs 13:20, The Bible
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tonseck
Adviser Group Joined: March 06 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 316 |
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You might want to check your facts in that. AI is definitely spread by airborne particles. |
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Don't be afraid to be afraid; it keeps you on your toes.
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Gene
Valued Member Joined: April 03 2006 Status: Offline Points: 2 |
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Hello I am writing a report on the bird flu a project for school and a question I cant seem to get a straight answer to is how long the virus lives after the host dies; and the comment about the steralitazition of the medical tools even bleach kills the HIV why wouldnt they bleach the equiptment befor heating; and how long does the meat have to be cooked to be safe if it ever is?
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JaxMax
Adviser Group Joined: March 01 2006 Status: Offline Points: 801 |
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Gene-
Generally a NORMAL flu virus will survive 48 hours outside the host at room temperature. See http://www.mayoclinic.com/
Then click on "flu basics". Then click on "Colds and Flu basic questions" then click on "how long can flu survivie outside the body". This means on doornobs, telephones, computer keyboards etc., so you should be careful to wash your hands.
The H5N1 can survive for at least thirty days if refrigerated, such as on eggs.
You should be able to click on the underlined portion and go directly to the website.
The World Health Organization has specific directions for cooking the chicken. Also you could check the United States Department of Agriculture.
Good luck on your report.
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He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.Proverbs 13:20, The Bible
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Gene
Valued Member Joined: April 03 2006 Status: Offline Points: 2 |
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thanks JaxMax
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JaxMax
Adviser Group Joined: March 01 2006 Status: Offline Points: 801 |
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Gene-
CIDRAP posted an update today that answers all your questions inone article. States the meat must be cooked to 70 degrees centigrade.
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He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.Proverbs 13:20, The Bible
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Hotair
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Dobrdale-- the thing that bothers me about eating chicken is handling the raw chicken before it is cooked. Even under normal circumstances, everything that raw chicken touches needs to be washed with hot soap and water. With H5N1, being an airborn virus, couldn't we inhale it ffrom the raw chicken?
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JAXMAX --- Well yes it is affecting my business. We
raise Corn and Soybeans and the prices of these commodities are not
whare we would like them to be. Many normal export customers are
severely cutting back on their normal purchases because their
populations are stopping thier consumption of poultry products.
If there is an out break in the USA prices will really tank. Then
because we are in the USA and the when any sneezes the Fedeal Treasury
opens and out pours your tax money.
Remember this Truth: Governments can tax in 2 ways. By levying a TAX or by printing money and causing inflation which reduces the value of the Currency. |
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carpenter
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Carpenter --- The WHO indicates that the H5N1 virus seems to get
located deep in the lungs. They indicated that most flu viruses
locate in the upper Bronchial tubes and are easily expelled by
caughing. While deep infection sights keep viruses with in the
lungs rather than expelling them.
Is this true then there is less to worry about. |
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