Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk |
Bush trying to establish martial law before H2H2H |
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Posted: June 01 2006 at 6:11pm |
Just read this and it gave me the willies! I believe that Dear Uncle Sam is more informed than we the people.
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at least there thinking way i see it...
might actually help not hinder...
BUT it still gives me the hebejebes
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gogo
Valued Member Joined: April 17 2006 Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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When martial law is officially declared, don't hold your breath for it to end quickly. Income tax deductions through payroll were supposed to be a temporary measure during WWII, and we still have them. One good loss of liberty deserves another.
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Linda
V.I.P. Member Joined: April 02 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 265 |
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The article is from last October...kind of old....just thought I'd point that out.
the idea of martial law is apalling. It is illegal for the Government to use the armed forces against a citizen.
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Insanity is making the same mistakes and expecting different results....therefore...Those who don't learn from history are bound to go insane.
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Hopefully Bush's putch will fail. If Martial Law is declared then the
US Constitution is suspended. It is the Constitution that details the three branches of government. No Constitution, no govt. Therefore, no President. The military should hang Bush and Cheney by thier toes until the fat seeps down to their heads and they burst like balloons. Makes you wonder what Bush and dirty Dick knew before 911. I trust a loyal, patriotic consul of Generals over the Texas mafia anyday. http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/11/20/185048.shtml Bush needs a new disaster, looks like a flu pandemic will work just fine. |
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Has anyone read the BF plan Pres.Bush prepared???????? MARTIAL LAW IS IN THERE, no surprise. By the way I believe it is true that if martial law is invoked the current President stays IN OFFICE until crisis is over
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okay I had a long reply all typed out and it went into the great cyber beyond, so here it is again.
I've been reading the president's Implementation Plan for the National Strategy for Pandemic Influenza. I've read about half of it this evening, any way so far I haven't seen anything about martial law, but I'll keep looking. So far everything I've read has made perfect sense, the only thing that's frustrating is this is only the plan to make a plan. (Hey, I got a plan, let's make a plan to make a plan). I've read all of Chap 5-Transportation and Borders and all of Chap 8-Law Enforcement, Public Safety and Security. It makes perfect sense to me to use the military to transport needed supplies in the event most truckers are either too sick or under quarenteen etc and can't. It makes sense to secure US borders if it is necessary with military personel, and it makes sense to restrict travel between areas of infection and areas of no infection. It makes sense to bring in the national guard to help local police if there are riots or trouble enforcing quarinteens. Unfortunatly if we are faced with a pandemic that is as severe as many of us think it might be, our local police, fire and emergency workers will be overwhelmed. BTW my husband is a firefighter, so this hits home for me. I for one will welcome the national guard for helping out. Just a thought: maybe now is not the time for pres bashing, maybe we have bigger chickens to fry.
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pheasant
Admin Group Joined: May 20 2006 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 9851 |
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diod.........the presidency is not a person ,its an office some occupents forget that..there is not a single past president that hasnt made mistakes ,with clinton i still supported the office, ive said it before and ill say it again if any one makes political hay out of this hillery will...... for good or bad im thankfull for a strong central government. we need to critique the office with votes,..not venum
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The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself......FDR
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Linda
V.I.P. Member Joined: April 02 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 265 |
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This is what martial law is...to say this.... is to say you agree with martial law....that's ok if that's how you feel....but don't be fooled this is martial law.
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Insanity is making the same mistakes and expecting different results....therefore...Those who don't learn from history are bound to go insane.
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Linda, I live in Oklahoma City, when the OKC bombing happend, the national guard came in and assisted, when the May 3rd tornado ripped a mile wide path 65 miles long right through densly populated areas, the national guard came in and assisted. I don't know, maybe I'm naive, but I was grateful they were here both times. I know this is a different situation, but hasn't the national guard always helped out in emergency's.
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Linda
V.I.P. Member Joined: April 02 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 265 |
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Helping out in emergencies is something we should expect from our government....enforcing Quarenteens of citizens is illigle according to our constitution....bringing food and water and shelter is helping out...Using the military to enforce laws on the people and to quarentine is Marshal Law...There is a big difference. How many people were confined to their homes by the National Guard when they came help? How many people were forced to take military help during the tornado?
I am having trouble seeing how people on this forum are having trouble seeing what is clearly a difference to me....Where do we draw the next line if we let the one that has been drawn by our forfathers be crossed? What about the line after that?
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Insanity is making the same mistakes and expecting different results....therefore...Those who don't learn from history are bound to go insane.
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Linda,
What happened during the May 3 tornado was that the national guard took up post around every entrance to neighbor hoods that were hit. People from all over wanted to drive or walk into the areas to either look, or try to get to their homes etc. The national guard stopped them. I admit it was a little disconcerting to see armed military personel turning people away. They didn't shoot anyone though and no violence broke out. There were a few instances of looters and I'm not sure who, local police or national guard stopped them. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with martial law, the truth is right now, I'm just more concerned with protecting my family. I mean, if martial law is enacted and our government becomes some kind of gestapo, what difference does it make if my children are dead? At any rate what could be done at this stage of the game anyway? We could write letters, make phone calls etc. But would it really do any good? The idea of the government strong handing US citizens is not a new idea for me. As mentioned earlier, I was here for the OKC bombing. What actually happened is not the story the rest of the world has been told. I personally have many friends that were witnessses to that event. My husband is an OKC firefighter. There is much much more to that than what you've been told. Oops I digress, sorry. Hey, I don't want to get into a dissagreement with you, I shouldn't have even said anything. It's just not that much of an issue for me right now.
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I would be glad to see the National Guard and military help don't get me wrong. BUT I do have a problem with them TAKING MY GUNS FROM ME...they did this in Katrina...wealthy neighborhoods mind you. Not that being rich makes you better,but it just wasn't in "Crime infested"neighborhoods. That I have a BIG PROBLEM WITH.
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Los Angeles, CA: Rodney King Riots. I was in the National Guard. The National Guard troops were federalized. Martial Law was enacted. Everyone restricted to homes after dark. Co-workers trapped at work FOR THREE DAYS in downtown LA. We, The Military, shot our neighbors who were robbing, beating, and killing our other neighbors. It’s legal. It’s necessary. There has to be control over the bad guys who take advantage of the weak. . |
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IN Canada there are bills being slipped in this summer in the name of Pandemic Planning that are marshal law ish. Hey and were the polite guys. Really quietly being done.
Read our Pandemic PLans there are on the web. Sorry I know there are alot of you who are good at tracking them down and posting them Im not one of them |
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rodin, I know this is not political, it is a very dangerous situation.
I don't care if Bush is Dem or Repub, he is power crazy and has used
fear repeatedly to get his way. Remember just before the 04 election,
how his administration repeatedly warned about coming terror attacks.
Cheney saying that if Bush was not re-elected we would get hit again.
"they are playing on our fears"
After the election the warnings ended .
Also, Bush has said numerous times that he would like to be a DICTATOR.
I do not trust him or Cheney or anyone in this administration. If they
succeed in dismanteling the Constitution then anything goes, the law
becomes HIS law. He becomes a dictator.
"they are playing on our fears"
It is not necessary to toss the Constitution to employ the National Guard
or the Military in a time of emergency. That is what FEMA was supposed
to be for. That is what the National Guard is for. Bush failed to prepare
for 911 even though everyone in DC was pulling their hair out worrying
about a terror attack, Bush did nothing. He went on a month long
vacation. NO Planning...........
What he should be doing now is co-ordinating FEMA and other agencies
for a BF outbreak, not tring to consolidate more power for himself.
Is he taking steps to prepare ????????
"they are playing on our fears"
You are falling into his trap, you are fearfull, you will let him get
away with anything, even trash our system of laws.
He can protect the country without resorting to that, if he really
wants to.
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The National Guard is just that - they are there to help those in the states of the nation when they are overwhelmed. I see no problem with the National Guard helping in the different states.
What I do see as a problem is 1 - if the National Guard (or any group, military included) does not respect the rights given to us in our Constitution. When that happens, this is no longer the country or government that was set up in the Constitution. 2 - if the military is used to enforce order in the states. The military is not to operate within the US, only in foreign conflicts, situations, or assisstance projects. The key word here is FOREIGN. Yes, if the military is called in to enforce order, or even to "assist", that is by definition MARTIAL LAW. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of the law can correct me; this is my understanding from having read up on it. |
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Penham
Chief Moderator Moderator Joined: February 09 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14913 |
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I don't want my weapons taken away, but I don't have a problem with the military taking control, especially if it gets really bad. If you have ever been in a riot situation or lived in a big city where things are unsafe anyway then I think that makes a difference in your thought process. The thugs and gang members will go wild without some type of control. I used to work in several residential treatment/psychiatric facilities with juveniles (mostly teenage gang members) and have been in riot situations (in controlled facilities with staff) and they are BAD, these gang members are ruthless, they don't care what they do or to whom, and there are thousands out in the streets right now, just waiting for the opportunities.....I have also lived in a couple of large cities and the gangs and thugs are everywhere, even when you live in a nice neighberhood, they will come looking for food, water and whatever else when they are desperate. I lived in Norfolk, VA in the 80's and early 90's and at that time there were approximately 100 different gangs in the Tidewater area, it can only be worse now. In the 90's I lived in Atlanta another city with gang problems. Even when we lived in near the Corpus Christi area in the late 90's they had gang problems, even the town 20 miles from us has gang problems, they are everywhere. Unless you have ever had contact with them, then you don't know what they are really like. I have worked with gang members here in Oklahoma, in Virginia and in Texas and they are all the same. In a bad situation, that may happen, then I would not mind the government stepping in. I personally don't care if the thugs and gang members get shot if they are doing something they are not supposed to be doing. If you are an ordinary citizen and abiding by the law then you shouldn't have anything to worry about.
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bleva2
Valued Member Joined: March 27 2006 Status: Offline Points: 11 |
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History repeats itself. This is true of pandemics and collapsing governments. The former can trigger the latter. No one knows when this great country will collapse or how bad it will be, but history dictates it will happen. Law abiding citizens have every right to be concerned about the government becoming abusive. In fact, it is our duty. Power by nature wants to increase and be all powerful. We should be very watchful of a government that allows the very gang members we are worried about to exist at their current level in the first place. Yes, you could argue that “we the people” are to blame for not voicing our opinion to elected officials, but look how well that has worked for immigration. Our government has gone way beyond “we the people” and should be diligently critiqued. |
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It really does not matter who is in office right now. I think we need to pray that they will keep our collective best interests in their minds.
We have the leaders we have. Can't change that right now. We can watch what they do. We can choose to follow or not. But we can't change leaders for this looming crisis anyway. |
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I think Diode needs to get off the crack he/she is on. "Bush says he wants to be a dictator." Leave your uninformed politics with your liberal buddies and off this forum.
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Hey Bo, Here you go:
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The federal government already has the power to invoke quarantine. See the following article by the Journal of the American Medical Association which was published in 2001. Or read the relevant info which is under the link.
"The federal government has the authority to enact quarantine when presented with the risk of transmission of infectious disease across state lines.35 Legislation stipulates that this is an executive decision to be made by the president. Once the decision has been made, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) is the federal agency authorized to manage federal quarantine actions.36 The implementation apparatus for such an order could involve federal assets from other agencies, such as the Department of Defense or the Federal Emergency Management Agency, deploying in support of federal, state, or local authorities.37 The federal government may also assert supremacy in managing specific intrastate incidents if so requested by that state's authorities or if it is believed that local efforts are inadequate.35, 38 Other legal venues for federal action may exist but have not been well delineated.39 "
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If you wish to continue your anti-bush rant than please create a post in the Discussion area. |
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Dark Wombat
Valued Member Joined: May 25 2006 Status: Offline Points: 36 |
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Wow. Now there's proof of an evil masterplan if I ever saw it. . .
Did you know JFK was really from Berlin?
Oh, and Reagan had a secret plan to bomb the USSR in just 5 minutes!
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Diode, you suspiciously sound like Hitech. considering you joined 31 May and Hitech hasn't posted since 1 Jun Ii suspect you may be one in the same.
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So Diode, if you were President what would you do? What would be your plan to protect every fellow American? What would have been your plan for anything that we have faced since 2001? I am not trying to pick a fight with you but it is one thing to criticise and quite another to offer up solutions. If you were President how would you handle a pandemic?
I hear so many people bash the present administration for so many things. I get so tired of it. Move on already. If you don't start bailing our ship may sink. Complain later when it is time to vote for someone else. I voted for Bush and if I had the same choice I would vote for him today and I am from MA. I don't know the mans heart, no one truly does, but I am glad someone is at least trying to defend our nation. He may not have gotten everything right and sure the conspiracy theorists have their ideas but the man is standing behind Israel so I will not criticize my President. How a man defends Israel has always been a criteria of mine. If there is an outward change in some other criteria I have then I will withdraw my support. So far, I do not see that from the present administration. BTW, I am an independent. I will vote for whomever I feel can get the job done most effectively. I do not like some of the policies that have changed to fit the theorists models but there are other powers at work in the government too. |
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I am not Hitech, why do you think only one person dissapproves of Bush's failures ? His favorable ratings are a pathetic 30%. After Iraq, Afghanistan, Katrina, I do not think he will do us any good if BF hits. I mean, look at his record. Now he wants to turn the military loose on the American people. He SHOULD have taken a pro-active approach to the threat of terrorism during his first nine months in office but did not. He SHOULD have taken a pro-active approach to planning the war in Iraq but did not. He SHOULD have realized that taking troops and resources out of Afghanistan would not be wise, But did not. He SHOULD have heeded the warnings about Katrina and acted accordingly, But did not. Now, with the dangers of BF looming all he can think about is a military solution. He should be co-ordinating a response with the agencies and resources he CURRENTLY has. He should be in daily touch with WHO and CDC and FEMA. This thread started with his desire to use the military and I commented. Hitech seems to be anti-government completely, I am not, I want real leaders and not a bumbling fool. Instead of worrying about Isreal he should be more concerned about US. If I were Pres I would do all I recommended above, possibly consider restricting flights from Indonesia until we know more. I would also call for meetings with local authorities to plan a response. I would direct FEMA to have a plan on my desk by MONDAY or they will be fired. I would at least take the lead instead of waiting for someone else to do something. I certianly would not send the NG to Iraq. I read he is sending more to Iraq. I am sure there are many others in this forum who would do more. I feel like Paul Bremmer did back in Feb 01 about terror attacks: "he is going to wait for something terrible to happen before he does anything" - paraphrased.
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" He (Bush) SHOULD have taken a pro-active approach to the threat of terrorism during his first nine months in office but did not." Bill Clinton should have done something about AlQueda / Bin Laden when he had the chance .... ain't hind sight great ...
Let's stick to the BF topics Diode ... start a Bush Bash on another thread if you must |
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Diode sounds like Hitech to me, Hey Hitech, hows it shakin?
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I'm sorry that I posted this thread. I am neither republican nor democrat nor liberal nor independant. I do not vote, I have no political agenda. The reason I posted this (I should've said "The president", instead of Bush but I think it would have been the same) was to show that Marshal Law is more than a possibilty, it is almost a certainty. And, as the intellegent people we are, can discuss this, give suggestions and alternative suggestions that are possible, workable, doable or hillarious! But let's go back to being interested in the welfare of ourselves, friends and families. Please? Jo
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What is a single mom with three children supposed to do without law and order? Should I buy my college age children guns? I don't see how "every man for himself" is any solution. I know quite a few in the guard and the military who are there because they believe in this country and want to serve, not because they are a part of some massive plot. I remember the same kind of language at the time of Vietnam. Younger people reject the establishment - it's always been that way, and in a sense, it's their "job" to do so. I would just encourage, like some already have, to create a discussion post for that topic and label it so that we can stay on track. The topic here is "law and order" and it's a difficult subject so let's try to share points of view and limit the name calling. |
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Funny things happen to broken people when they go through the stages of adjustment. We have had the benefit of adjusting to this pre-event. Those not so fortunate may get caught up in a herd mentality like we saw in Katrina. When witnessing looting, people with a thin grasp on morality tend to go with the crowd. Those with firmly held belief systems tend to keep their behavior in check and even have an impact on the behavior of others around them. We will see what happens to our moral compass when people are sick and dying but deep down I believe that the people of this nation will rise to the occassion of this impending crisis and shine brightly like our ancestors have done before us in times of great national need.
When I look around at all the plenty we have enjoyed through the years, I have to wonder if this has not spoiled us as a people. I know there are people in this country that live in extreme poverty. Most in poverty live in other nations, they will not have as big an adjustment that we will have in our developed countries. Those less fortunate than we have been, are more familiar with hunger, disease, pestilence and drought. If doubt a body can ever get used to such horrible things. We, however, are on a lofty perch, one that we have worked hard to build, but one that will inevitably fall, if this is what is to come to pass. I look at myself and wonder how I could have been so immune to the suffering of others. Those images of starving and ill people, did I do anything to ease their suffering? Hardly. I would make little contributions here and there. Did I use the gifts that God gave me to effect change or did I hide my talents? That will be how I am judged I am sure. I am not looking forward to any of this at all, for any of us, I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy, if I had one. |
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thanks for getting us back on track gettingready.
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Thanks for your post standingfirm. It will be harder for us spoiled ones, won't it? Don't judge yourself too harshly, though - not many of us have done all we could to help others. I also think our way of life is just as stressful, but in a different way. Speaking on the subject though, I also think 99% of us will "rise to the challenge" as you said. I saw it in Katrina. So, hopefully, there would be limited need for the military. Neighborhood watches are good too.
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What do you think that too much is being mde out of the potential martial law situation? I just don't think that the numbers are there, especially not for a country as large as the US. Most of our troops are serving overseas, the military is stretched to the breaking point as is.
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Martial Law would be of serious concern to me, anyway. Makes me wonder if this is over-kill..and i also agree..the troops are overseas, and making them take the roll of police..would overextend the forces. Peace.
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The military will be needed - martial law is just what is necessary.
The law and order will bread down and people will try to defy the quarantine laws and spread the virus - a rifle butt or bullet will stop them to save lives
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flholland
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Rodin,
I am in total agreement with you. It may be difficult for many people to understand the positive side of martial law, unless they have been in the unfortunate position of having to sleep (with one eye open) with guns within arm's reach. Here in New Orleans, the military was located on almost every street corner. WE WERE GRATEFUL FOR THEIR PRESENCE! They checked our I.D.'s when traveling through various areas in search of water and food. Initially, it was frightening to see all the armored vehicles and military personnel with guns strapped over their shoulders. But after going through our first few check-points, they made it perfectly clear they were there to assist us.
They provided us with information, food, water, ice, not to mention protection. They were kind, polite, understanding, and always helpful.
Someone mentioned neighborhood watches. Here in my neighborhood, two men, who happened to own 4-wheelers, would sleep during the day and patrol our neighborhood at night. It helped ease our worry.
Martial Law ...it's frightening, but in my opinion, there are times it is absolutely necessary. Thank God for our military!
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Be strong and of good courage; be not frightened, neither be dismayed; for the Lord your God is with you whenever you go.
--Joshua 1:9 |
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Linda
V.I.P. Member Joined: April 02 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 265 |
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I've never been in a disaster situation. I guess I can see how some sort of Martial law might be necessary. Certainly whatever way the government can come in to help although they've already made it pretty clear they would be streched to thin. I can't imagine living in this country and being in a position like flholland describes. The stories that came out of New Orleans still haunt me... I can't imagine having lived them. The thought of marshall law strikes a nerve and I think it should in every American Citizen but I can see that there have been times and will be times it's needed. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the people who serve in our military. We're living and breathing a big chunk of history right now. Decisions made today will effect future generations....there has to be a balance.
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Insanity is making the same mistakes and expecting different results....therefore...Those who don't learn from history are bound to go insane.
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Scotty
Adviser Group Joined: March 06 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 846 |
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In a serious pandemic the urban population will attempt to disperse into rural areas. This cannot be allowed to happen. Governments of all descriptions will understand the consequences of such a mass exodus and will take whatever means necessary to prevent it.
Without Law and Order you have nothing. No economy, no jobs, no food, no property, no land. You have nothing. |
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i amnot afraid of Law & Order, I am a law abiding citizen. What I am afraid of is the loss of liberty under marshall law. Also, under marshall law :
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gogo
Valued Member Joined: April 17 2006 Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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You people that look forward to martial law and think it to be necessary, you are thinking like a subject and not a free individual.
With no standing army to come in and take over our cities we would still have the ability to organize ourselves to take care of ourselves. Most of you aren't waiting for someone else to feed you, why are looking for someone to herd you?
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There's one thing to keep in mind I think, the US military is made up of our family and friends. My brother serves in the Air Force. I think these people for the most part are very loyal americans, that's why they serve in the armed forces. The vast majority of them are NOT going to be a party to some kind of dictatorial(is that a word?) take-over. These are people that believe in 'the american way'. They all have families themselves. Even if our president had some kind of 'master plan' (which I find highly unlikely) he would not only find himself in a position of controlling the masses, he would also find himself in the position of controlling the military. I mean think about it, how many of you know someone that's in the military? Do you really believe that any of them would go along with that kind of a plan? Why would they? It's not like military pay is very high, so they would just continue to serve in an organization that no longer upholds the values they signed up to protect? For a pittance? I think most of them would go AWOL and reform to revolt against such a thing. |
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NawtyBits
Valued Member Joined: February 28 2006 Status: Offline Points: 430 |
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IMHO, martial law at the national level is impractical and
impossible. There are simply not enough troops to control the
largest cities, much less every city. If there is a severe
pandemic, the military will lose troops to the flu, will lose
initiative, and will lose motivation. There is NOTHING motivating
about having to fire on the people the military was sworn to protect.
I think martial law is the very least of our worries. I'd be more worried about incompetence than infantry. nawty |
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