Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk |
WATER |
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tazman
V.I.P. Member Joined: March 13 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 79 |
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I ordered four 55 gallon new plastic drums from this site: http://www.quake-kare.com
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Email me your favorite links:My Email
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Mississipp Mama
Valued Member Joined: January 20 2006 Status: Offline Points: 524 |
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Hi blade runner. I plan to get a well drilled also. If you are seriously thinking about this I would spend the extra $300 to make the water portable. In the long run I don't think you will be sorry. Have you thought about getting a hand pumped well so you won't be dependent on any thing working or having enough gas to pump your well. This is the way we plan to go. My well will be between 50-80 feet deep labor and material $2195. I will be paying $80 extra to have a concrete slab poured. The slab will be 3 by 3feet.
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Filling big water jugs easily indoors:
Pictures here: http://www.alpharubicon.com/prepinfo/bigjugfill.htm
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If you don't have running water, and there's snow outside, just melt some snow and use to manually operate your toilet:
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Whole Bunches
Valued Member Joined: April 23 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1 |
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Curious about the water supply, I remembered I knew an employee of my local water system (Escambia County, Fl), so I asked him some questions.
What's the pandemic plan? We have been told nothing; there is no plan that I am aware of.
How is the chlorine for the water supplied? At each well are 2 connected cylinders of chlorine gas. As soon as one cylinder is empty, the system automatically switches to the other one. An employee then goes to the well and disconnects the empty and attaches a full cylinder. Each cylinder lasts 6 days. If the electricity did not fail and no employee showed, each well would be properly chlorinated for a maximum of 12 days. Each well normally has 2 extra, full, non connected chlorine cylinders.
I forgot to ask how much extra chlorine was on hand should no new supplies come in.
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If you are on well water that relies on a pump run by electricity suggestions on how to get water if you run out of gas for a generator to run the pump for the well?
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redcloud
V.I.P. Member Joined: March 08 2006 Status: Offline Points: 334 |
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Chloe,
I am in the same boat, so I got a well bucket from Lehman's: http://www.lehmans.com/shopping/search/searchresultsmain.jsp?fresh=1&searchType=advanced&iMainCat=0&iSubCat=0&attribute14=0&attribute15=0&attribute16=0&RS=1&keyword=well+bucket It's a long, thin galvanized chamber that you lower into the well casing. It fills, and then you haul it back up. Red |
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We have installed an extra big pressure tank. That way we have 50
gallons of fresh water if the electricity shuts down. Better than
filling a jug to go stale. Easy to run a gen a little every day to get
50 gallons of water.
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redcloud
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That's a fantastic idea. Beats bailing up my 100' well.
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Rocky
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My question still remains. I am not convinced that even the best of the gravity flow ceramic filters works for Virus! Bacteria, sounds like it takes care of that. So I ask again, would chlorinating water, letting it stand, then running it through the ceramic filter to remove other stuff and help the taste be the way to go. Thanks in advance. Rocky
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Rocky |
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bruss01
Adviser Group Joined: January 12 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 448 |
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Rocky - Your question remains unanswered? How so? Are you questioning the ability of chlorination to kill germs? Are you questioning the ability of the filter to remove virus? Are you asking about a filter's ability to remove chlorine smell and taste from treated water? That wasn't clear in your original question.
Cheap filters only remove sediment and parasites. Better filters remove bacteria, and the best can remove most virus. Are you worried about bf virus in your water? I'm not. I'm worried about H2H bf virus, which will come from the mailman, not the water supply.
If you are worried about removing virus organisms from your drinking water, chlorination alone would be sufficient. I would bet that a high quality ceramic filter would do the job too, but if you're really concerned then use chlorination instead.
I thought you were asking about removing the chlorine taste and smell from treated water, and using a filter to do that. A filter with an activated charcoal component may do this, but it will eventually saturate and need replacement. Also, any sediment from rainwater etc a filter would help with. Even if the chlorinated water is SAFE to drink, it may not be PLEASANT to drink if it has a lot of organic matter in it or sediment, or if you have problems with the chlorine taste. The chlorine will evaporate off given time, but sediment and OM would need to be filtered or strained.
I hope your question is FINALLY ANSWERED. Edited by bruss01 - April 26 2006 at 7:01am |
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jtg1969
Valued Member Joined: February 23 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Solar Purifying of Water Using Water Bottles I thought this might be helpful. Sorry if this info was already discussed.
Plastics Can Help Make Safe Drinking Water Available Worldwide
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MAJDAD!! I think you have a good idea! They have those "quick-set" pools. that would make a great storage area for water. people could put them in their garages or basements!! Just add some chlorine to keep purified!! SAM"S CLUB 269.87
16 X 16 X 4 X 5.9 = 6,042.6 GALLONS OF WATER!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOW!!!!!!!
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Hey Guys. I have a swimming pool, an realized that was going to have to be my water source it tshtf. I did some research and found the Big Berkey gravity flow filter. I upgraded to 4 'black berkey" filters which filters everything!!. This filter is what hey use in the Red Cross uses. It can take lake or pond water and remove EVERYTHING!!! I will find some info for it!
Size of the avian flu virus is .27 microns. however, if you add 18 drops of bleach per gallon of water before you start filtering, it will kill the virus. I spoke to the manufacturer and they confirmed this. I will post some info.
Below is a copy of the e-mail I got from the rep of the big berky company. I can't figure out how to add the pdf file..... i will try to figure it out!!!!
-----Original Message-----
From: Diane Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 3:04 PM To: jshep@berkeywater.com Subject: which is the best unit?? Dear Jim, I am more confused than I was an hour ago. I have found Big berkeys that claim to use two black berkey filters, and I have found big berkeys that have four super sterasyl filters. Are the units that use black berkey filters truly big berkerys, or are they the emergency filter and the people are just calling them that? We want what ever is the best filter that would filter out the smallest microns, and also would kill viruses and bacteria. We are concerned about bird flu, and want to be able to filter pool water and rain water if the water system is affected. If bird flu never happens, well we will just have great tasting water!! Anyway which is filter is better? We are a family of five, would use it everyday for filtering tap water, and than if the pandemic happens we would like the most effective filter. Thanks!! Diane Dear Diane, Thank you for your interest in our products and in answer to your question, if you want the smallest micron rating that would be the system with the Black Berkey elements. They remove greater than 99.99999999% of pathogenic bacteria. For your convenience, I have attached a PDF file on the elements. I would also suggest that if there is a bird flu pandemic and there is a concern that birds may have contaminated the source water, that you pre-treat it by adding 16 drops of Clorox per gallon to the source water. The Clorox will kill any viral pathogens and the Black Berkey purification elements will then remove the Clorox entirely. I hope the above is helpful. Yours Sincerely, -Jim- |
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Hope a bird don't poop in the pool.
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gilmor
V.I.P. Member Joined: April 10 2006 Status: Offline Points: 81 |
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[QUOTE=Diane] <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #cc99ff; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <FONT face=Verdana>Hey Guys. I have a 40,000 gallon pool, an realized that was going to have to be my water source it tshtf. I did some research and found the Big Berkey gravity flow filter. [/QUOTE>
Diane, I picked up a couple of Black Berkey's myself. MUCH to cheap to buy the filtering unit. . . Made my own; 2 - five gallon FOOD GRADE (#2 in a triangle is stamped on the bottom of the) buckets with lids. Drill a couple holes in them and you are up and running. . . I also "popped" for a spigot, so the pictures you will see are the "de luxe" model. Spigot not required, just a convenience. The filters are can be cleaned with Scotchbrite cleaning pads. Each filter will last about 3000 gallons. Straining water before hand is recommended if you are using pond or puddle water. 5 Pictures can be found of this at: http://gilmore100.photosite.com/album1/ Picture of Black Berkey filter Picture of 2 buckets, one atop the other Picture of filter installed in Upper bucket Picture of bottom side of Upper Bucket Picture of Lower bucket (option spigot is shown) Gilmore . . Edited by gilmor - May 03 2006 at 6:23pm |
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Chrystle
V.I.P. Member Joined: May 06 2006 Status: Offline Points: 70 |
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Chrystle
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Chrystle, For me, I've kept store bought one-gallon plastic jugs for about six months in the truck when I was working in the desert. Some will loose their shape and will leak if not kept upright, I found a few had a little taste difference, but when I was thirsty, they were just fine for me. I have also just rinsed and refilled large Gatorade containers; they have threaded lids, were more durable/less flimsy, and seemed to work better for me. I don't know about any dangers from the plastic "leaching" into the water. I'll bet someone here can answer that question. |
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Chrystle
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Had another thought/question re: water: We have a rain barrel to catch roof run-off and use it mainly for small garden w/tomato plants at present. Wondering about if there's BF, will water from roof be safe if birds are sitting/pooping on roof even if we run it through a filter after rain barrel collection?
And does anyone know if the Berkefeld (sp?) water filter, removes viruses?
Also: does anyone have any info. on the Miox pump free series water purifier? Directions say it eliminates viruses, but it's so tiny (3.5 oz), I'm wondering how effective it is.
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Chrystle
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Chrystle
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Just a warning if you are thinking of drinking water collected from your roof:
From page 16 of this document:
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Dicpunch
advanced Member Joined: May 15 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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Hello everyone. I am just starting my preps and I have a few questions about storing water....
I plan to get a 250 gallon water tank from
as well as a
I have a couple of questions before I purchase these.
1) Does anyone know how long water (from the tap) will be safe to drink once it is put into the tank? I don't really want to use the filter for cleaning and washing, just for drinking. However, if the water isn't safe past a certain time period I need to know when to start using it for all water usage.
2) I plan on buying a 250 gallon tank. If I were to run out of water and need to use regular tap water, rain or lake water would the Katadyn filter the water for BF and other viruses?
3) Does anyone else have these products? Thoughts? Recommendations?
Thanks for the help.
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Dicpunch
advanced Member Joined: May 15 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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Sorry need to add.
4) I have also looked at getting a SteriPen or a MIOX Purifier, however when talking to a person on the phone he said that they were geared more to backpacking and not for all a families water needs. Would I be better of with the 250 gallon tank and the Katadyn or the 250 gallon tank and a SteriPen/Miox?
Thanks again.
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redcloud
V.I.P. Member Joined: March 08 2006 Status: Offline Points: 334 |
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Dicpunch,
I assume you have some means of getting the water out of that tank for use. If not, you might want to look into a siphon pump: http://www.bascousa.com/ As for your questions: 1) All depends on how clean the tank is when you fill it, but eventually things will start to grow in the water, regardless. If you have municipal supply, it has been treated with chlorine, but that wears off fairly quickly, or so I've been told. To make the water safe for drinking again, you will need to treat with bleach or poolshock (a recipe for using poolshock is up higher in this thread). If you have a well, then you are essentially home free, as far as quality goes. Getting the water out of the ground if the electricity goes then becomes the problem. This can be solved with a generator to power the well pump, or a "well bucket" from Lehmans.com. 2) I don't believe the Katadyn filters out particles as small as viruses. Bleaching, boiling, reverse osmosis are the only things that kill viruses, as I understand it. There may be that capability in the Berkey filter described upthread. If you run out of potable water, one of the sterilization choices will be necessary, beginning with filtration for Giardia, etc., followed by bleach. I would increase my storage capacity, if I were you. Figure on one gallon of water per day per adult just for drinking. Add to that toilet flushing, washing clothes and dishes and bodies, and you have a very different picture of water requirements. Collection of pre-filtered rainwater into a separate tank, for purposes other than drinking, is what I have decided on. Drinking water will be sequestered in drums in the basement, next to the well. If common wild birds become carriers of the flu, any rainwater you gather could be contaminated, and will have to be bleached before bringing it into the house. 3) The filter I have bought is this one: http://www.pwgazette.com/gravity.htm According to the manufacturer, this will make pond water "safe." It does not address the issue of viral contamination, however. For that I will use the poolshock recipe upthread. The Katadyn is a great filter, but I have my doubts if it can handle long term heavy use. Then again, I've never tried it for more than camping. The water usage we are discussing is a whole order of magnitude greater than a weekend trip to the woods. As for storage, I have gone with 55 gallon closed-head barrels from Bascousa.com, not wanting to put all my water in one container. A number of smaller containers are easier for me to use for a variety of reasons, among them, storage room (can spread the 55 gal barrels around a space as it is available, without the large footprint of a single tank), and ease of portability. Your mileage may vary. Hope this helps. Red |
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If all is not lost, where is it?
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Dicpunch
advanced Member Joined: May 15 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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That does help, I appreciate it. I don't think getting the water out of the tank will be a problem.
If the Katadyn is only good for short term uses and won't kill viruses, and I am a bit hesitant to try to create my own sterilize my water what about the MIOX?SteriPen option?
Do you know or anyone else know about the MIOX or SteriPen and if they can kill BF amongst other things?
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redcloud
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Don't know about the MIOX. The picture of the Steripen I have seen shows it being used in a single glass of water - not inspiring for bulk use - but UV does kill viruses.
As for the bleach option, 16 drops of bleach to a gallon of water, left sitting for 30 minutes kills everything left behind by a pre-filter such as I mentioned above. If it's ok for your water utility, it ought to be ok for you. The smell and taste is dispersed by simply pouring the water repeatedly from one vessel to another. Chlorine is a gas, and wants to escape into the air. Red. |
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If all is not lost, where is it?
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Dicpunch
advanced Member Joined: May 15 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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It doesn't seem that we have much time left. I think tomorrow I will order the tank(maybe kick it up to the 300 gallon tank), Katadyn filter, and get a bunch of bleach. Not to be bothersome, but what exactly constitutes a "drop" of bleach?
You don't think there would be an issue of adding bleach to water filtered through the Katadyn filter do you? It may be overkill, but I have an expecting wife and 2 small children, there is no room for error for me.
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redcloud
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Please don't feel bothersome about anything you want to ask on this forum. When I joined, I had great bouts of embarassment over everything I asked, but everyone here has been where you are, and they are all very nice and patient with newcomers. There are actual documented stages of freak out associated with the desire to prep. We've all been throught them. Eventually you will start paying attention to only big news, and will settle down to a determined prep mindset - more methodical. At first, I was feeling so way behind that I had to do everything at once, which is impossible, of course. There is time left to think things through, make lists, prioritize your spending. Lists really helped me get to the most important things first. Break it down into basic categories: Heat, Light, Water, Food, Power, Drugs, Protection, etc. Make your choices in each category, and fill out your stocks. Every time you go for your regular shopping, buy more than you need. If there is a sale on bandaids, buy two boxes. A sale on lentils, buy double the amount you would otherwise. It can be done. Everyone here is continually finding holes in their stocks and filling them up. Think of it as an ongoing process, not so much a crash program.
Man, I do go on. A drop, as I understand it from my college chemistry which was many years and many brain cells ago, is as defined by a drop from a standard medicine dropper like those you would get from the drugstore. I forget how many drops to a milliliter there are (22?). There must be a conversion table somewhere on the web, so you don't have to stand there and count out 16 drops per gallon for 300 gallons. That would take days. Perhaps elsewhere in this thread some kind soul has written it down. I think it would be perfectly safe to add bleach to water either before or after filtering through the Katadyn. The two are really targeting separate pathogens: the Katadyn for big stuff like cysts, bacteria, algae, suspended dirt, bear droppings, small rocks, squirrels; the bleach for particles less than .5 microns (I think that is what the Katadyn is good down to), like viruses. One thing you should know about liquid bleach, well two things actually: Buy only the plain bleach without scents added or other things. And the other thing is that bleach loses its effectiveness with age (months). That is why you might consider mixing your own liquid bleach from powdered Pool Shock, which can be had at any pool supply or place that sells hot tubs. In powdered form it is very stable, and will last longer than liquid bleach. There is a recipe upthread for mixing it up. You want to buy plain calcium hypochlorite - no algicides (sp?) or fungicides. Hope this helps. Please feel free to ask your most outlandish questions here. I have. Red |
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If all is not lost, where is it?
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Dicpunch
advanced Member Joined: May 15 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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Again this really helps, I really appreciate your efforts to help me. I have been a little overwhelmed trying to get everything in order, keep my wife calm, and reach my family. All of which I have failed, up to this point, to do. HaHaHa.
I am initially planning for 6 months and then building from there. 6 months water, food, shelter,etc. I thought water was the most critical item and if something were to happen would be the hardest item to get. After thinking about it last night I have a large lake within a 10th of a mile that I could use to aid in cleaning, washing etc and the Katadyn and bleach would be effective against pretty everything. right?
I would use the tank water soley for drinking. However I would still run it through the filter and treat the water. I just wonder how long it would stay safe in the tank before needing to treat it.
I used to work in a grocery store many years ago and I was responsible for stocking the lane that held the cleaning supplies. I remember some bleach sitting there for longer than a month before it was sold. What is the effective shelf life (for what we want it to do) for bleach?
I'll check and see how much bleach is needed to treat 300 gallons of water.
Thanks again
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Chrystle
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Chrystle
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Chrystle ... I'm confused on how you got September 9, 2004 out of those 3 #'s .. I got the 4=2004 part ..... how do you get September 9 out of 253? -k
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Dicpunch
advanced Member Joined: May 15 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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awesome, that helps.
ReadyMom here is a site to check your dates
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Chrystle
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Chrystle
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Dicpunch
advanced Member Joined: May 15 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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I called the Aquatank people and they said there wasn't any guarantee on how long the water will remain safe in the tank. However, I asked him to guess and he said around a month or so. If I have enough bleach would I even need another filter, like the Katadyn? If I was forced to use water from the lake, for cleaning and bathing, would the bleach kill everything from the water including BF? |
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redcloud
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You are basically trying to create two levels of water sterility: a higher level for human consumption, and a lower level not intended for consumption but clean enough to bring into your house and allow contact with your body and household surfaces without risk of infection. If you are filling the pre-cleaned tank with the tap water you normally drink, it must already be free of Giardia, cryptosporidium, and the like (which are the types of things the Katadyn is designed to remove from a "wild" water source), so you would only have to watch for algal blooms and expect growth of bacteria in the tank over time. You can't kill every single bacterium in the system, so after a while you would need to bleach the stored water again, or bleach it as you removed it for drinking.. It has been stated here that bleach will not kill every type of cyst in surface water. I don't have any science that confirms or denies that statement. But that's where the Katadyn would come in, if you are trying to create drinking water. Bleach would, however, kill any virus in the water. Think about how many times you swam or bathed in a lake as a kid, without any health consequences. I lived in the lake water during summers as a kid, and never got sick, and never made any concerted attempt to keep the water out of my mouth or eyes. We never drank the water, but swimming was not a concern. It would follow that you could bathe in lake water that had been bleached to kill BF virus, with relative impunity, but you would need to filter it first before drinking, to remove the cysts that bleach won't kill. I have read here that folks are turning over their drinking water supplies every six months, regardless of how well-sealed, and well bleached their storage is. This is probably a sound practice, unless of course the pandemic has started, electricity is off, municipal water is off or questionable, and you are stuck with the water in your tank. Then you would obviously want to hang onto it, and treat it the best you could for drinking. Red |
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If all is not lost, where is it?
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Dicpunch
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Thanks Red, That kind of sums up what i really wanted to know. I think for a first purchase the tank and bleach will be fine. I will buy the filter later.
I also swam in a lake, and a river for that matter, as a kid, and never had one problem.
I am actually looking at 3 levels of water usage. The lowest level for flushing the toilet, etc. 2nd level for cleaning and bathing and then the 3rd level for drinking.
Do you know if there are any cheap home test for water saftey?
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redcloud
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Safety is an all-encompassing word. What exactly would you be testing for? I know of no test for bacteria and cysts, beyond looking at it under a microscope like we used to do with pond water in school. The presence of virus would have to be confirmed by tissue culture and an electron microscope. There are tests for specific chemicals, and water hardness, but they are irrelevant to this discussion.
I'm afraid you got me on that one. |
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If all is not lost, where is it?
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Dicpunch
advanced Member Joined: May 15 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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Just a test to make sure the water is safe for drinking.
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redcloud
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As far as I know, there is no one test to assure potability. You have to trust your decontamination regimen. At least, that's what I'm doing.
Perhaps someone else would like to chime in on this? |
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If all is not lost, where is it?
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Dicpunch
advanced Member Joined: May 15 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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I guess I need a little practice.
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redcloud
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The Katadyn filter works. The bleach works. I think you've got it figured out enough that you can relax about it. When your tank arrives, and you can fill it, you'll feel even better.
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If all is not lost, where is it?
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Dicpunch
advanced Member Joined: May 15 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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I appreciate the help.
Thanks again.
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redcloud
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No problem. Don't hesitate to ask ANY question on this forum.
Interesting avatar, BTW. Are those military badges? |
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If all is not lost, where is it?
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