Collateral Damage- Innocents who die

KABUL, Afghanistan – President Hamid Karzai condemned a U.S. operation he said killed 16 Afghan civilians, while hundreds of villagers denounced the American military during an angry demonstration Sunday.

Karzai said the killing of innocent Afghans during U.S. military operations "is strengthening the terrorists."

He also announced that his Ministry of Defense sent Washington a draft technical agreement that seeks to give Afghanistan more oversight over U.S. military operations. The same letter has also been sent to NATO headquarters.

Karzai in recent weeks has increasingly lashed out at his Western backers over the issue of civilian casualties, even as U.S. politicians and a top NATO official have publicly criticized Karzai for the slow pace of progress here.

The back-and-forth comes as the new administration of President Barack Obama must decide whether to support Karzai as he seeks re-election later this year as part of the United States' overall Afghan strategy.

Karzai's latest criticism follows a Saturday raid in Laghman province that the U.S. says killed 15 armed militants, including a woman with an RPG, but that Afghan officials say killed civilians.

Two women and three children were among the 16 dead civilians, Karzai said in a statement.

In Laghman's capital, hundreds of angry demonstrators denounced the U.S. military Sunday and demanded an end to overnight raids. U.S. military leaders, victims' relatives and Afghan officials — including two top Karzai advisers — met at the governor's compound to discuss the issue, Gov. Latifullah Mashal said.

"The U.S. military said 'We are sorry for this incident and after this we are going to coordinate our operations with Afghan forces,'" Mashal said.

Civilian deaths during U.S. operations have been a huge point of friction between the Afghan government and U.S. and NATO militaries. Many of the deaths happen on overnight raids by U.S. Special Forces who launch operations against specific insurgent leaders.

A U.S. investigative team that had planned to travel to the village — 40 miles (60 kilometers) northeast of the capital, Kabul — was canceled Sunday because of bad weather. U.S. military spokesman Col. Greg Julian said American officials hoped to visit the site on Tuesday, weather permitting.

"We do want to find out what the bottom line is, and we're kind of in a hands-tied position until we can get out there," Julian said. "And even when we get out there, it's based on what people say rather than being able to do a full forensic-type investigation."

Julian said that the U.S. military has photos showing militants fighting the U.S. coalition forces, but that the photos cannot be released to the public. He said the photos would be shown to Afghan officials.

Karzai last week told parliament that the U.S. and NATO have not heeded his calls to stop airstrikes in civilian areas. Karzai has recently sought to have more control over what kinds of activities U.S. and NATO forces can carry out. According to a copy obtained by The Associated Press last week, the draft technical agreement Karzai's government sent to Washington and NATO headquarters calls for:

• The deployment of additional U.S. or NATO troops and their location carried out only with Afghan government approval.

• Full coordination between Afghan and NATO defense authorities "at the highest possible level for all phases of military and ground operations."

• House searches and detention operations to be carried out only by Afghan security forces.

Civilian deaths are an extremely complicated issue in Afghanistan. Afghan villagers have been known to exaggerate civilian death claims in order to receive more compensation from the U.S. military, and officials have said that insurgents sometimes force villagers to make false death claims.

But the U.S. military has also been known to not fully acknowledge when it killed civilians.

After a battle in August in the village of Azizabad, the U.S. military at first said no civilians were killed. A day later it said about five died, and eventually a more thorough U.S. investigation found 33 civilians were killed. The Afghan government and the U.N. said 90 civilians were killed.

comment: the cost of human life in Iraq of civilians may be from 10 to 100 times troops loses. The basic rules of engagement and mounting toll of civilians who are killed is unacceptble in term of the Geneva convention. Grabbing all the surrounding people, most who are not even involved in a public confrontation, incarcerating them, depriving them of legal rights, torturing them to death, and moving them offshore so rights can be violated which would cause a massive outcry in the U.S. is morally and ethically wrong and not justified by the feverish search for the unseen enemy who may actually be more shadow than enemy.

Collateral damage -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateral_damage

United States Department of Defense definition collateral damage — Unintentional or incidental injury or damage to persons or objects that would not be lawful military targets in the circumstances ruling at the time. Such damage is not unlawful so long as it is not excessive in light of the overall military advantage anticipated from the attack. (Joint Publication 3-60)

It is the killing of innocent men, women, and children which is declared ok in a state of war.

Why is this posted in an Avian Flu Talk forum?

When the Pandemic arrives, executive orders contained in the Influenza Operations Manual will permit persons to have their weapons confiscated, their food stores taken and distributed as the government sees fit, quarantine of individuals stripping them of rights to be contained and shot if they attempt to escape containment.

Martial law will be implemented 'for the common good' - mostly the protection of the Infrastructure - and very little authority will remain while the President and Infrastructure operate in a climate which is no longer a democracy.

During confiscation of weapons, during incarcerations of people unwillingly quarantined, and people are killed we will bring collateral damage from those in Iraq and Afghanistan, to our own citizens.

All of this can be verified by going over executive orders in place first set up by JFK and the in the 90s, re-instituted by Bill Clinton.

Especially in a 30% CFR Pandemic - there will be extreme conflicts between federal and state and even more so between the previous and communities.

The Collateral Damage in Gaza- despite worldwide outcry was absolutely unaddressed by the United States and no efforts were made to protect innocent populations in Gaza from what amounted in cases to slaughter and the deaths of many innocent people.

The death count for the Israelis engaged in combat was in the teens - the civilian death count and much more so injuries was in the thousands. The entire operation served no useful purpose, accomplished nothing of strategic value, and results in the deaths of many many innocent people.

The entire concept of collateral damage in unacceptable, violates the spirit of the Geneva convention.

It must stop.It has been stated that the new administration is making moves to correct this.  The bombing of an entire country or area, including schools, hospitals, U.N. safe houses, and creating hundreds of thousands of refugees and attacking private homes may be considered militarily expedient, but it takes us back morally and allows a blitzkrieg mentality where untouchable air strikes murder thousands of innocent people.

That is the reality.

Medclinician