Hand pump for well-Question

I have a 605 foot deep well. I think we will be using the lake or river. Maybe back up power is in order?

Thanks, WeeWife;I love Lehman's but had forgotten them as a resource.

If you need to get water from any well in a pinch, here's an idea ....

Environmental engineers are often required to collect groundwater from very numerous monitoring wells at a property. Nowadays, most sample collection is often accomplished using pumps, electricity, generators, etc. (You see where this is going ....) In the old days (and still today) groundwater collection can be accomplished using a groundwater "well bailer". A bailer is simply a hollow cylinder with a one-way valve ("check valve") on the bottom tied to a rope on top. The bailer sinks into the groundwater and the check valve allows water to fill the cylinder; as you raise the bailer to the surface, the check valve closes to hold the water in the cylinder . The "check valve" is a round ball that lets water come in through a hole on the bottom bailer during filling and falls to the bottom of the cylinder blocking water from escaping as you retrieve it to the surface.

You can purchase a 2" diameter bailer (approx 48" length cylinder) and pull up about 0.65 gallons of water each time. Enough to stay hydrated and alive.

You could also construct a DIY bailer very easily out of PVC pipe. The top of the cylinder stays open and a short "loop" (wire, rope, etc.) is attached near the top. The loop should be fastened to the upper edge of your cylinder, across the diameter of your cylinder (NORTH to SOUTH.) The loop keeps your bailer centered and "plumb" as you lower and retrieve it inside the well casing. Attach your retrieval rope to this loop at the top. Next construct your check valve at the bottom of the bailer with a PVC cap to match your pipe's diameter. Attach the cap to the bottom using 6 or 8 fasteners (self-tapping screws, nuts and bolts, whatever!) [Sidebar - PVC cement could be used. PVC cement is easier and watertight, but it is only used for drainage piping in your house. PVC cement contains carcinegenic chlorinated organic compounds. With that warning and disclaimer, you're not drinking or inhaling the cement, the cement is dry and the contact time between the dry cement and your groundwater is very short ... therfore, IMHO, big deal! You'd probably get greater chemical exposure writing your name with a Magic Marker.]

Anyways, once you've fastened your cap to the bottom of your bailer, you need a smooth ball to serve as your check valve. The ball must sink in water. Find a ball that is about 1" to 1-1/2' diameter. Next, drill a hole in the center of the cap that is smaller in diameter than your check valve ball. {If the hole is larger than the ball, the ball falls out ! DUH!!!} My check valve ball is 1-1/4" and the hole in the cap is 7/8". Start with a smaller hole with your check ball and test the water-tightness of your bailer. As a finishing touch, once your check ball is in your bailer, keep it from failing out of the top (either during storage or during bailing) by installing two or three or four rods or bolts or whatever across the diameter of the cylinder at the same height near the top of your DIY bailer. I drilled small holes and ran coat hanger wire at the top and made a mesh to contain the check ball. Think of it as bars of a jail or a wide mesh screen to keep the ball in. Hey, chicken wire on the top would have been easier!

And if all this check valve stuff is too difficult and you aren't particularly rushed for your water collection, I guess you could scrap the check valve all together. Make your bailer, but instead drill a 1/8" (or 3/16" ???) hole in the bottom cap and lower it into your well. It would take longer to fill the cylinder through the smaller hole. Then you'd have to hustle and raise it up the casing quickly as your water drained out the bottom. If your groundwater level was too deep, you'd loose alot or all of your water by the same it got to the surface.

Experiment: Build a prototype. Start with a 1/8" hole. Have your helper hold vertically, finger on the hole. Fill it with water. See how long it takes for water to drain. Then see how long it takes you to get your DIY weighted bailer from the water level in the casing to your bucket at your feet. Calculate how much water you will lose.

Good luck.

Joe Bob

IMPORTANT:

1. Make sure you have sufficient or extra length of adquately strong rope to lower and raise your bailer. Unbroken length is preferred. Knots can slip!

2. VERY IMPORTANT: Tie off the other end (the "bitter end" !!!!!) of the rope to a car bumper, pail, your belt, whatever! Even empty, your bailer and the length of rope down the well is heavy and will pull all your retrieval rope down the well. You've lost your bailer! (I've done it, I've seen it happen, it's a drag! Get out the hand line for fishing, attach a treble hook and go fishing down the well. Hook some of your rope and pull up gently! I've wasted hours doing this. We learn from our mistakes. Please learn from mine.)

3. Lower your bailer slowly by feeding ("tailing") it through your hands. Wear gloves or get rope burn. Don't send plugs of knotted rope down your well or you invite problems.

4. Calculate the volume and weight of your full bailer. A bigger bailer may not be better. [SEE NEXT ITEM 6. BELOW]

The 2" diameter bailer has about 0.16 gallon of water per 1 foot of cylinder length and that 0.16 gallon weighs about 1-1/2 pounds. Your four foot long, 2" diameter bailer will yield about 0.65 gallon and the water will weigh about 5-1/2 pounds.

The 4" diameter bailer has about 0.65 gallon of water per 1 foot of cylinder length and that 0.65 gallon weighs about 5-1/2 pounds. Your four foot long, 4" diameter bailer will yield about 2.6 gallons and the water will weigh about 22 pounds. That can get to be pretty heavy lifting hand over hand from a water table 80 feet below grade.

5. If your water is pretty deep or hand retrievel too strenous, here's a simple solution. Grab an old plastic garden hose reel from a neighbor's trash, attach your rope to your bailer and the reel, position your reel over your well, and lower away! Your bailer rope stays coiled nicely around the reel, you do less heavy lifting, and your bitter end is always tied off!

6. VERY IMPORTANT: I have a 6" diameter well casing and I constructed a 4" PVC bailer, BECAUSE I can easily pull up my downhole equipment and appurtances when TSHTF. When, or if, we loose power, I can disconnect my riser pipe at the surface and pull up my pump, motor, electrical wires and the risers, set them aside and start bailing groundwater.

If you can't pull your pump and appurtances, you'll need a bailer that can get past, at least, your riser pipe. Hopefully, your pump is down deep enough into the water table that your DIY bailer doesn't need to get by it to retrieve water. Therefore, size your bailer accordingly.

7. While not totally smooth, a golf ball could work as a check valve ball. You'd probably get some minimal acceptable leakage around the dimpled surface of the ball.

8. MOST IMPORTANT!!!

MOST IMPORTANT! ANY WATER YOU RETRIEVE FOR POTABLE USE, I.E. DRINKING WATER MUST BE CONSIDERED SUBJECT TO PATHOGENS AND BACTERIA. YOU MUST FOLLOW YOUR OPERATING PROCEDURES FOR TREATING AND PURIFYING YOUR DRINKING WATER BEFORE USE.

MOST IMPORTANT!!!!

Again, Good Luck. Hope this helps and makes sense.

If I may make a suggested deviation to Joe1965bob65's design, it is my experience it may be better to affix a cap onto the top of the tube to keep the scum that lines the inside of the well casing from getting into your water. Dragging that bailer up the casing seems to scrape a layer of dirt, slime and rust into an open top bailer. This modification will also trap your valve ball in the tube and a round top cap will help ease the bailer past any obstructions in the casing. Drill some small holes around the circumference of the pipe just under the bottom of the cap. This will allow air to escape as the bailer fills. In Joe1965bob65's example with a 7/8" valve hole if you drill 6 holes 3/8" in diameter you will have the same square area. I covered those holes with air conditioning foam filter material using two rubber bands, cut from a bicycle inner tube, positioned just above and below the holes. You could also use zip ties, bailing wire, etc. The foam will allow air to escape as the bailer fills and help keep most of the scum out of the bailer. Drill a hole in the center of the top cap before you affix it and install a stainless eye bolt, using stainless washers and a lock nut, to affix your line. You could use countersunk stainless screws to hold the cap on or you could just glue it on. If you use screws it would be serviceable later on if it got crap in it or the valve ball deteriorated. To empty the bailer, just push up on the valve ball while holding the bailer over a bucket. Or find something squeaky clean to put in the bucket that you can press the valve ball against to empty it hands free.

You may also want to consider chamfering the outer edge of the open end of the bottom cap before gluing it on to knock off the edge that can catch on obstructions in your casing when pulling it back up. Do this with a file, grinding wheel or sanding disk.

Steve

For once in my life I hope I'm wasting money!

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fortyfiver Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Valued Member Joined: June 08 2006 Status: Offline Points: 2	Post Options Post Reply Quote fortyfiver Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Hand pump for well-Question Posted: June 08 2006 at 11:08am
	I can't seem to find the info. I need. My well is 50' and right now has a submersible pump in it. What type of a hand pump can I get to use for emergencies?

Guests Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest Group	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: June 08 2006 at 11:42am
	I have a 605 foot deep well. I think we will be using the lake or river. Maybe back up power is in order?

weewife Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Valued Member Joined: March 21 2006 Status: Offline Points: 4	Post Options Post Reply Quote weewife Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: June 08 2006 at 12:04pm
	hi fortyfiver - I've been reading a little on the Lehman's website at www.lehmans.com - check out the Water section - hope this helps

fortyfiver Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Valued Member Joined: June 08 2006 Status: Offline Points: 2	Post Options Post Reply Quote fortyfiver Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: June 08 2006 at 12:18pm
	Thanks, WeeWife;I love Lehman's but had forgotten them as a resource.

outsidethecamp Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List V.I.P. Member Joined: February 16 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 361	Post Options Post Reply Quote outsidethecamp Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: June 09 2006 at 9:37pm
	For whatever it's worth... DH & I have been investigating this for about 4 months now & here's what we have found for our 178' deep well... http://www.survivalunlimited.com/deepwellpump.htm Right now, we're in the process of having the county approve this unit & our well driller agree to install it. Lord willing, we'll be set before too long. Hope this helps. Peace. God help us all... Peggy

joe1965bob65 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Valued Member Joined: January 16 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1	Post Options Post Reply Quote joe1965bob65 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: January 16 2008 at 2:16pm
	If you need to get water from any well in a pinch, here's an idea .... Environmental engineers are often required to collect groundwater from very numerous monitoring wells at a property. Nowadays, most sample collection is often accomplished using pumps, electricity, generators, etc. (You see where this is going ....) In the old days (and still today) groundwater collection can be accomplished using a groundwater "well bailer". A bailer is simply a hollow cylinder with a one-way valve ("check valve") on the bottom tied to a rope on top. The bailer sinks into the groundwater and the check valve allows water to fill the cylinder; as you raise the bailer to the surface, the check valve closes to hold the water in the cylinder . The "check valve" is a round ball that lets water come in through a hole on the bottom bailer during filling and falls to the bottom of the cylinder blocking water from escaping as you retrieve it to the surface. You can purchase a 2" diameter bailer (approx 48" length cylinder) and pull up about 0.65 gallons of water each time. Enough to stay hydrated and alive. You could also construct a DIY bailer very easily out of PVC pipe. The top of the cylinder stays open and a short "loop" (wire, rope, etc.) is attached near the top. The loop should be fastened to the upper edge of your cylinder, across the diameter of your cylinder (NORTH to SOUTH.) The loop keeps your bailer centered and "plumb" as you lower and retrieve it inside the well casing. Attach your retrieval rope to this loop at the top. Next construct your check valve at the bottom of the bailer with a PVC cap to match your pipe's diameter. Attach the cap to the bottom using 6 or 8 fasteners (self-tapping screws, nuts and bolts, whatever!) [Sidebar - PVC cement could be used. PVC cement is easier and watertight, but it is only used for drainage piping in your house. PVC cement contains carcinegenic chlorinated organic compounds. With that warning and disclaimer, you're not drinking or inhaling the cement, the cement is dry and the contact time between the dry cement and your groundwater is very short ... therfore, IMHO, big deal! You'd probably get greater chemical exposure writing your name with a Magic Marker.] Anyways, once you've fastened your cap to the bottom of your bailer, you need a smooth ball to serve as your check valve. The ball must sink in water. Find a ball that is about 1" to 1-1/2' diameter. Next, drill a hole in the center of the cap that is smaller in diameter than your check valve ball. {If the hole is larger than the ball, the ball falls out ! DUH!!!} My check valve ball is 1-1/4" and the hole in the cap is 7/8". Start with a smaller hole with your check ball and test the water-tightness of your bailer. As a finishing touch, once your check ball is in your bailer, keep it from failing out of the top (either during storage or during bailing) by installing two or three or four rods or bolts or whatever across the diameter of the cylinder at the same height near the top of your DIY bailer. I drilled small holes and ran coat hanger wire at the top and made a mesh to contain the check ball. Think of it as bars of a jail or a wide mesh screen to keep the ball in. Hey, chicken wire on the top would have been easier! And if all this check valve stuff is too difficult and you aren't particularly rushed for your water collection, I guess you could scrap the check valve all together. Make your bailer, but instead drill a 1/8" (or 3/16" ???) hole in the bottom cap and lower it into your well. It would take longer to fill the cylinder through the smaller hole. Then you'd have to hustle and raise it up the casing quickly as your water drained out the bottom. If your groundwater level was too deep, you'd loose alot or all of your water by the same it got to the surface. Experiment: Build a prototype. Start with a 1/8" hole. Have your helper hold vertically, finger on the hole. Fill it with water. See how long it takes for water to drain. Then see how long it takes you to get your DIY weighted bailer from the water level in the casing to your bucket at your feet. Calculate how much water you will lose. Good luck. Joe Bob IMPORTANT: 1. Make sure you have sufficient or extra length of adquately strong rope to lower and raise your bailer. Unbroken length is preferred. Knots can slip! 2. VERY IMPORTANT: Tie off the other end (the "bitter end" !!!!!) of the rope to a car bumper, pail, your belt, whatever! Even empty, your bailer and the length of rope down the well is heavy and will pull all your retrieval rope down the well. You've lost your bailer! (I've done it, I've seen it happen, it's a drag! Get out the hand line for fishing, attach a treble hook and go fishing down the well. Hook some of your rope and pull up gently! I've wasted hours doing this. We learn from our mistakes. Please learn from mine.) 3. Lower your bailer slowly by feeding ("tailing") it through your hands. Wear gloves or get rope burn. Don't send plugs of knotted rope down your well or you invite problems. 4. Calculate the volume and weight of your full bailer. A bigger bailer may not be better. [SEE NEXT ITEM 6. BELOW] The 2" diameter bailer has about 0.16 gallon of water per 1 foot of cylinder length and that 0.16 gallon weighs about 1-1/2 pounds. Your four foot long, 2" diameter bailer will yield about 0.65 gallon and the water will weigh about 5-1/2 pounds. The 4" diameter bailer has about 0.65 gallon of water per 1 foot of cylinder length and that 0.65 gallon weighs about 5-1/2 pounds. Your four foot long, 4" diameter bailer will yield about 2.6 gallons and the water will weigh about 22 pounds. That can get to be pretty heavy lifting hand over hand from a water table 80 feet below grade. 5. If your water is pretty deep or hand retrievel too strenous, here's a simple solution. Grab an old plastic garden hose reel from a neighbor's trash, attach your rope to your bailer and the reel, position your reel over your well, and lower away! Your bailer rope stays coiled nicely around the reel, you do less heavy lifting, and your bitter end is always tied off! 6. VERY IMPORTANT: I have a 6" diameter well casing and I constructed a 4" PVC bailer, BECAUSE I can easily pull up my downhole equipment and appurtances when TSHTF. When, or if, we loose power, I can disconnect my riser pipe at the surface and pull up my pump, motor, electrical wires and the risers, set them aside and start bailing groundwater. If you can't pull your pump and appurtances, you'll need a bailer that can get past, at least, your riser pipe. Hopefully, your pump is down deep enough into the water table that your DIY bailer doesn't need to get by it to retrieve water. Therefore, size your bailer accordingly. 7. While not totally smooth, a golf ball could work as a check valve ball. You'd probably get some minimal acceptable leakage around the dimpled surface of the ball. 8. MOST IMPORTANT!!! MOST IMPORTANT! ANY WATER YOU RETRIEVE FOR POTABLE USE, I.E. DRINKING WATER MUST BE CONSIDERED SUBJECT TO PATHOGENS AND BACTERIA. YOU MUST FOLLOW YOUR OPERATING PROCEDURES FOR TREATING AND PURIFYING YOUR DRINKING WATER BEFORE USE. MOST IMPORTANT!!!! Again, Good Luck. Hope this helps and makes sense.

DesertDan Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Adviser Group Joined: November 28 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 32	Post Options Post Reply Quote DesertDan Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: January 16 2008 at 4:29pm
	Hey Joe It sounds like you have done some GW sampling in your day. Me too! Great exercise We used to bail wells and the on some got dedicated pumps and or portable small Grundfos pumps. On some jobs we used a work orver rig to bail using a 10 foot bailer De-con was alway a pain espcially in cold weather

Weird-one Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List V.I.P. Member Joined: August 02 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 76	Post Options Post Reply Quote Weird-one Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: January 23 2008 at 11:01am
	If I may make a suggested deviation to Joe1965bob65's design, it is my experience it may be better to affix a cap onto the top of the tube to keep the scum that lines the inside of the well casing from getting into your water. Dragging that bailer up the casing seems to scrape a layer of dirt, slime and rust into an open top bailer. This modification will also trap your valve ball in the tube and a round top cap will help ease the bailer past any obstructions in the casing. Drill some small holes around the circumference of the pipe just under the bottom of the cap. This will allow air to escape as the bailer fills. In Joe1965bob65's example with a 7/8" valve hole if you drill 6 holes 3/8" in diameter you will have the same square area. I covered those holes with air conditioning foam filter material using two rubber bands, cut from a bicycle inner tube, positioned just above and below the holes. You could also use zip ties, bailing wire, etc. The foam will allow air to escape as the bailer fills and help keep most of the scum out of the bailer. Drill a hole in the center of the top cap before you affix it and install a stainless eye bolt, using stainless washers and a lock nut, to affix your line. You could use countersunk stainless screws to hold the cap on or you could just glue it on. If you use screws it would be serviceable later on if it got crap in it or the valve ball deteriorated. To empty the bailer, just push up on the valve ball while holding the bailer over a bucket. Or find something squeaky clean to put in the bucket that you can press the valve ball against to empty it hands free. You may also want to consider chamfering the outer edge of the open end of the bottom cap before gluing it on to knock off the edge that can catch on obstructions in your casing when pulling it back up. Do this with a file, grinding wheel or sanding disk. Steve
	For once in my life I hope I'm wasting money!

700renegade Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Valued Member Joined: August 07 2006 Status: Offline Points: 38	Post Options Post Reply Quote 700renegade Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: April 17 2008 at 11:14pm
	Here is another solution for your check valve - just add a sump pump check valve to the bottom of the bailer pipe and avoid all the issues w/ the ball sealing. Problem is solved for $5. Sump pump checks usually have a pretty pliable rubber flapper that seats in them and shouldn't take much pressure to puch open a good distance. Most would probably be 1.5" thread, which could easily bushing off a 2" pvc pipe. O.D. may be quite simmilar which is a plus, as you don't want the check valve getting caught on anything.