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Malaysian passenger plane crashes in Ukraine

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Dutch Josh View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2018 at 2:08am
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-05-31/sinister-choreography-mh17-probe-smear-russia DJ-The Dutch autorities want to push their version of the MH17 mass murder as the "only possible version" eventhough it is based on info from the Ukraine secret service (even on a telephone recording made a day before the MH17 was shot down). 

DJ-The only possible conclusion has to be that western governments are using lies-knowingly-to push an anti-Russia agenda. (From the Assad gas-attacks in Syria, Skripal novichok attacks in the UK , Maidan-shootings in Kiev, to the MH17 story western governments are not interested in reality but propaganda.)
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Technophobe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2018 at 3:40am
Originally posted by Dutch Josh Dutch Josh wrote:

DJ-The only possible conclusion has to be that western governments are using lies-knowingly-to push an anti-Russia agenda. propaganda.)
I agree.  Of course they are!

Where I dissagree is in the reason for our side's push.  I do not think it is unwarranted; I think they are pushing back.

The evidence points* to the fact that Russia was involved in supplying Assad's regime with chemical weapons and that they did poison the Skripals.  They also have a history of this.  That is not a condemnation of Russia.  Their reasons are every bit as good as ours.  For instance, although Assad is a monster, he is almost certainly the lesser of two evils.  The West would probably benefit from listening to Russia occasionally, even if they don't like what they hear.

Nonetheless, we can't afford to not push back.  Russian politics are all about strength, that was their reason for putting Putin in power in the first place, so, if we fail to retaliate, we are seen as weak - and more of the same ensues.




*Points that way; there are no certainties as 'us public' will never be told the whole truth - by either side.
Absence of proof is not proof of absence.
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Dutch Josh View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2018 at 1:21pm
Techno, 

I do not believe in "saints"-politics is always compromise with "reality". The former London eye-doctor B.Assad would have loved to stay a London eye-doctor-his older brother died-he had to succeed his father...to become a "monster" for western media. The same media that welcomes "crownprince MbS" from Saudi Arabia who jailed the rich (corrupt) elite in his country for money, Saudi Arabia-sept 11-2001 mass murderer-seems to be a welcome "monster".....

In july 1988 a US ship in the Persian Gulf did shoot down an Iran passenger plane-claiming that plane was attacking the US ship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655. In december '88 Lockerbie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103 happened-Libya was blamed while Iran did it in reaction to the july '88 massacre.

History is full of false flags and the outcome is disaster. You can not govern the world on lies !

You can not fight climate change on lies, deal with all kind of health crises (to many to mention-we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg, one may expect live-expectancy going down in most western countries) or solve mass migration, water, food crises on lies....

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2018 at 2:53pm
Don't get me started on our deals with the Saudis.  "Deal with the Devil" is just the start - I don't want to show you where my bad language ends!  I hope you never see how ugly I can get.

I could not have a lower opinion of the whole house of Saud if I burrowed down under our deepest sewer.  My opinion of those who do deals with them is even lower.

Having just agreed with that sentiment and those following, I also totally agree with the last statement most of all.
Absence of proof is not proof of absence.
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Dutch Josh View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2018 at 7:17am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGS1u12q2EQ Sir Anthony Beevor on the battle of Arnhem 45 min-why history 18 min, present from 1.23min. 

The truth in history takes time-after the US army crossed the Waal-river september 44 at Nijmegen they did "murder" 300 german pow's. The RAF-bombing campain over Germany had no military use after september 44. (Anthony Beevor)

Maybe the future will tell who was behind the downing of MH17 and why. The MH17-massacre is one of the reasons for a new cold war-wich is not a good thing for most (exept weapon-dealers Military-Industrial-Complex).

(with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Javad_Zarif in 1988 reacting to the US downing of Iran Airbus flight 655-in the video-now that same Zarif is Iran FM)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2018 at 12:50pm
DJ-Long read but a good summary; Russia is kept out of any serious investigation, "evidence" from Ukraine is presented as fact.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2018 at 12:28pm
https://southfront.org/summing-up-russian-military-briefing-on-mh17-incident-missiles-serial-numbers-fake-videos-and-intercepted-radio-communications/

(DJ-There were some earlier reports that the BUK-missile used had shrapnel that belonged to an older type of BUK-missile. Russia did not have them in 2014-Ukraine did. "Seperatists" could get control of a Ukraine BUK-but it is a complicated missile to use-you need several vehicles (a.o for radar, command/control and specialized crew) so in that scenario "seperatists"would be a crew knowing how to deal with such a system.

DJ-I do not believe Russia would allow pro Russia "forces not onder Russian control" to have such a system. So either Russia did bring down MH17 or "pro-Kiev/Ukrainian forces"did.

Besides that the airspace below 10km should have been closed-Ukraine was/is responsible for that. )
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2019 at 9:01am
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-29/evidence-mh17-case-doesnt-point-russia-or-ukraine
as fighting intensified in the months leading up to the MH17 crash. In March 2014, Bild am Sonntag cited German government sources who claimed that over 400 American mercenaries working for Academi affiliate Greystone were operating in Ukraine. The article was sparked by videos which had recently emerged online showing armed men said to be Americans on the streets on Donetsk, Ukraine. Academi issued a statement denying that any of their direct employees were in Ukraine but did not comment on the nature of their relationship to Greystone.

DJ-MH17 mass murder as a US made false flag ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2019 at 10:26pm
DJ-The Ukraine downing of MH17 was meant to be an excuse for western intervention in eastern Ukraine; https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-07-23/mh17-evidence-tampering-exposed-cover-ups-hiding-records-witness-misreporting-fbi

"For the first time also, the Malaysian Government reveals how it got in the way of attempts the US was organizing during the first week after the crash to launch a NATO military attack on eastern Ukraine. The cover story for that was to rescue the plane, passenger bodies, and evidence of what had caused the crash. In fact, the operation was aimed at defeating the separatist movements in the Donbass, and to move against Russian-held Crimea."

https://www.zerohedge.com/search-content?search_api_fulltext=mh17&sort_by=search_api_relevance

DJ-When western governments are willing to allow to shoot down a plane with most western passengers as an excuse for intervention in a war there is something very wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 09 2019 at 3:01am
https://southfront.org/netherlands-indirectly-admitted-own-complicity-in-mh17-tragedy/:
Ukrainian special forces kidnapped Tsemakh from the DPR and moved him to Kiev in June. According to initial claims by Ukraine’s State Security Service (SBU), they detained the driver of a towing truck that transported Buk missile involved in the incident with Boeing 777 of Malaysian Airlines (flight MH17) over eastern Ukraine in July 2014. However, later, the SBU was forced to denounce its own claims. Tsemakh’s air defense unit consisted of one vehicle with Zu-23 anti-aircraft gun and was not deployed near the incident site when the tragedy took place.

Months of torturing and pressure by Ukrainian intelligence did not force Tsemakh to participate in the slapstick comedy show called ‘international investigation of the MH17 crash’. In fact, Ukraine obtained no real evidence confirming any Tsemakh links to the MH17 case because if it had, Kiev would never hand over him to Russia.

Therefore, the official mainstream propaganda turned Tsemakh into a ‘witness’ of the MH17 tragedy.

DJ-from the comments;

Why were the Dutch involved in the investigation?
(DJ-It was a combined KLM/Malaysia flight from Amsterdam-196 Dutch people got killed-bad question)
NATO members and what were NATO doing in the exercise in the Black Sea, which ended on the day the MH17 went down?
Why were so many civilian airline pilots, complaining of NATO interference, in their communication systems, during June and July, when the NATO exercises, using Aegis Destroyers and aimed at air communications, were operating?
Why were Ukraine involved in the investigation, yet, Malaysia, which owned the plane and according to international law, should have been involved in the investigation, were excluded?
Why did Ukraine demand that all information relating to MH17 was to be classified?
Why did they get basic policemen, with no aviation disaster expertise, to run the investigations, rather than than experts from the International Civil Aviation Organization?
Why was their no forensic analysis from the shrapnel fragments, from the entry/exit holes, which would have provided DNA analysis, showing exactly what missile took down the MH17. Whether it was a ground to air missile, air to air missile, or a mixture of both?
Why was their no public autopsy report, on the pilot and co-pilot of the MH17?
What happened to Carlos, the air traffic control operator, who sent a tweet out, regarding what had happened?
Why did the oligarch in control of Ukraine aviation and air traffic control, say he was sorry they took out the wrong plane?
Why did the air traffic control operative, responsible for the MH17, go on holiday the following day, never to return and never to be interviewed?
Why did the military pilot, who took off with air to air missiles, return on the day, within the time period, with his air to air missiles missing?
Why did the military pilot, who was promoted after MH17, for returning back to base with his air to air missiles missing, commit suicide later?
Why did the JIT show in their press conference, the BUK missile, complete with serial numbers, that was meant to take down the MH17, only they forgot to mention the missile passport, showing the missiles to be from 1986, during Soviet Union times, and which were despatched to Ukraine. Russia upgraded their missiles.
Why did they ignore the evidence, presented in a court of law, from Antaz-Antey, who actually produced the BUK missile system for the Soviet Union, Ukraine and Russia?
Why did NATO refuse to hand over their radar intelligence, which would have been working in the area, on the day concerned, owing to 'Exercise Breeze', over in the Black Sea?
Why did the US refuse to hand over their satelite intelligence, which was actioned, at the time and in the area, when the MH17 went down?
What did President Obama tell President Putin, when President Putin was flying over Switzerland and changed his flight path?
Who was expecting President Putin, to be flying through Ukrainian airspace, around that time of day, in a plane with a similar radar image to the MH17 and similar colourings?

So many questions, so few answers, yet.

Cannot wait for the German investigator to have a chat with the Malaysians.

German Detective Ready to Discuss Sharing Info on MH17 Crash With Malaysia... https://sputniknews.com/wor...

(DJ-Just like 9/11 the official story simply does not cover the events. To many open questions. Why was MH17 over a combat area ?)
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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