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Malaysian passenger plane crashes in Ukraine

Printed From: Avian Flu Talk
Category: General Discussion
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Description: (General discussion regardining new emerging virulent diseases and preparation for the next pandemic)
URL: http://www.avianflutalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=31437
Printed Date: December 13 2019 at 3:32pm


Topic: Malaysian passenger plane crashes in Ukraine
Posted By: hachiban08
Subject: Malaysian passenger plane crashes in Ukraine
Date Posted: July 17 2014 at 9:12am

Malaysian passenger plane crashes in Ukraine near Russian border -Ifax



http://news.yahoo.com/malaysian-passenger-plane-crashes-ukraine-151320569.html - http://news.yahoo.com/malaysian-passenger-plane-crashes-ukraine-151320569.html

MOSCOW, July 17 (Reuters) - A Malaysian passenger airliner with 295 people on board crashed in Ukraine near the Russian border, Interfax cited an aviation industry source as saying on Thursday.

It said the Boeing plane was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. Reuters could not immediately confirm the Interfax report.




Also shown on Yahoo:

Breaking News:
Ukraine gov't says Buk missile that downed plane fired by separatists

Related: (News10-Sacramento) (FoxLA)
Anton Gerashenko, an adviser to Ukraine's Interior Minister, said on his Facebook page the plane was flying at an altitude of 10,000 meters (33,000 feet) when it was hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher.



Coincidence? There is more live video coverage than written coverage at this moment in time. Also some conflicting reports. Also stated, Russia shot down a cargo plane on Monday.


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Be prepared! It may be time....^_^v



Replies:
Posted By: hachiban08
Date Posted: July 17 2014 at 10:52am
Updated info:

22 bodies counted at Ukraine plane crash site


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_UKRAINE_PLANE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-07-17-12-47-41 - http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_UKRAINE_PLANE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-07-17-12-47-41


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Be prepared! It may be time....^_^v


Posted By: jacksdad
Date Posted: July 17 2014 at 12:58pm
So sad.



-------------
"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.


Posted By: Satori
Date Posted: July 17 2014 at 1:06pm


WAS PUTIN’S PLANE THE TARGET?

http://www.theburningplatform.com/20...ne-the-target/



Posted By: hachiban08
Date Posted: July 17 2014 at 1:18pm
Most likely unrelated but:

Per ABC News's Facebook (I'm 24, I live on Facebook sadly) : DEVELOPING: White House placed on lockdown due to an "unattended package;" reporters being told to stay in press area.



I'll read that in just a second, Satori. Thanks for the post. :) Yeah it's a terrible tragedy, Jacksdad :(



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Be prepared! It may be time....^_^v


Posted By: Satori
Date Posted: July 17 2014 at 1:20pm


false alarm


Reports that Putin flew similar route as MH17, presidential airport says ‘hasn’t overflown Ukraine for long time’

http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/



Posted By: hachiban08
Date Posted: July 17 2014 at 1:24pm
The planes look fairly similar too, odd. Also the first link didn't work for me. This new link does work though. Thanks for the update!


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Be prepared! It may be time....^_^v


Posted By: Satori
Date Posted: July 17 2014 at 2:22pm


unconfirmed

boy does the propaganda and speculation fly quick


SBU intercepts phone conversations of separatists admitting downing a civilian plane (FULL TRANSCRIPT; VIDEO)

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/separatists-admit-downing-a-civilian-plane-in-tapped-conversation-full-transcript-356545.html



Posted By: Satori
Date Posted: July 17 2014 at 2:52pm

How We Got To The Point That A Malaysian Plane Was Shot Down Over Ukraine

http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/.../mh17-ukraine/

"And according to a screenshot being passed around Twitter, rebel leader Igor Strelkov — who many suspect to be a member of the GRU, Russia’s external intelligence service — may have taken credit for shooting down the plane, thinking it was Ukrainian. That theory is being backed by several prominent experts on the region, including Strobe Talbott, president of the Brookings Institution, and former U.S. Ambassador to Russia Michael McFaul. “Russian GRU officer Strelkov admitting that he ordered the missile strike against the Malaysian jet,” McFaul tweet out from his account."





Posted By: Satori
Date Posted: July 17 2014 at 3:13pm


Russian agent in Ukraine takes credit for shooting down Malaysian air flight, killing 295

http://americablog.com/2014/07/passe...an-border.html



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: July 17 2014 at 3:58pm
Me thinks something smells a bit foul.

If the USA uses this as an excuse to send in the troops i'll be very suspicious.

False flag???


Posted By: onefluover
Date Posted: July 17 2014 at 4:08pm
I doubt this was an accident or mistake. It just seems too convenient with its ramifications. And it seems odd to me that O didn't know about it pryor to P telling him. Unless if it happened while they were on the phone. And what is Russia doing with the box? Doesn't that belong to Malaysia? And wasn't it found on Ukrainian soil?

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"And then there were none."


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: July 17 2014 at 5:43pm
The USA funded the overthrowing of the Ukrainian government by siding with Neo Nazis (literally). They have had to remain at arms length from this event. The whole time having their grubby CIA hands all over it.

Several months ago the US rolled huge number of troops into Poland for "military exercises" This was no random training drill. Its a very controlled troop build up. The US have been champing at the bit to have troops on the ground in the Ukraine ever since the start of this. 

This could spark a superpower war


Posted By: hachiban08
Date Posted: July 17 2014 at 6:29pm
Don't they say the cold war never truly ended?


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Be prepared! It may be time....^_^v


Posted By: onefluover
Date Posted: July 17 2014 at 6:40pm
I don't think World War 2 ever really ended. Therefore, World War 2(b)?

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"And then there were none."


Posted By: onefluover
Date Posted: July 17 2014 at 8:08pm
Members of the WHO on board?

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"And then there were none."


Posted By: Satori
Date Posted: July 17 2014 at 8:19pm


Busted! Kiev’s Video Implicating Russia Posted to Youtube Before Plane Was Shot Down

http://www.activistpost.com/2014/07/busted-kievs-video-implicating-russia.html#!bhfP80


apparently the guys who made the fake sarin gas video to try and draw America into war with Syria

made this one too !




Posted By: Elver
Date Posted: July 17 2014 at 9:19pm
Or maybe, someone was trying to take out another banker! (just kidding)


Posted By: arirish
Date Posted: July 17 2014 at 9:53pm
Cobber is absolutely right on this! The U.S. needs to stay as far away from this as possible! It's time for the U.E. to step up and take care of their own. This is a choice between Nazis and Commies! The U.S. has no dog in this hunt!

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Buy more ammo!


Posted By: hachiban08
Date Posted: July 17 2014 at 10:01pm
AIDS researchers on their way to a conference were on the plane.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696508/Reports-27-Australian-passengers-board-MH17-footage-emerges-Australian-passport-wreckage.html - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696508/Reports-27-Australian-passengers-board-MH17-footage-emerges-Australian-passport-wreckage.html


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Be prepared! It may be time....^_^v


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: July 18 2014 at 12:54am
Economically this plane-crash and the escalating Gaza-war are a disaster. It will lead to higher prices for energy stopping economic growth. 

A lot of wars, from Nigeria, Ukraine to Gaza/Israël are energy-related. Wars are not natural phenomena but organized (crime). 


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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: hachiban08
Date Posted: July 18 2014 at 9:45am
Now they are saying at least 1 American was on the plane. Yesterday,everyone was going on and on about there being 23, then later on in the evening, they claimed they didn't know if any were on the plane.  So which is it? It makes no sense.

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-plane-shot-down-missile-1-american-dead-160415599--politics.html - http://news.yahoo.com/obama-plane-shot-down-missile-1-american-dead-160415599--politics.html


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Be prepared! It may be time....^_^v


Posted By: arirish
Date Posted: July 18 2014 at 12:03pm
hachiban08- Welcome to modern journalism! They are in such a hurry to get a scoop on the other networks that they just blather on and report rumors and rumors of rumors, never checking facts, never checking sources! Speculating on "WHO, WHAT, WHY and WHEN" instead of doing real reporting! Most of the talking heads are chosen because they look good on TV and can read from a teleprompter. There is no requirement that they have any intelligence.

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Buy more ammo!


Posted By: jacksdad
Date Posted: July 18 2014 at 2:51pm
Yep - at least three or four days before anything coherent and consistent starts to come out, and weeks or months before it starts to make any real sense.

-------------
"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.


Posted By: hachiban08
Date Posted: July 18 2014 at 3:36pm
I agree with you both, Arirish and Jacksdad. It's just a bit frustrating at times. One of the people who passed went to Indiana University as a doctoral student in Chemistry, originally from the Netherlands, my friend knew her. So sad. :/


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Be prepared! It may be time....^_^v


Posted By: Johnray1
Date Posted: July 18 2014 at 5:46pm
To All,does any one know why that any one else would want 100 HIV and Virologist specialists dead?Johnray1


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: July 18 2014 at 5:49pm
Well, that was embarrassing.


Posted By: jacksdad
Date Posted: July 18 2014 at 6:48pm
Honestly, I don't think it's any more than an unfortunate coincidence. AIDS researchers don't strike me as a legitimate target to anybody - certainly not enough to risk an international incident in an already politically charged situation anyway.

-------------
"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.


Posted By: rickster58
Date Posted: July 18 2014 at 6:52pm
I'm sure the US knows exactly who fired this missile. The Ukraine is an active theatre of war and the US would have had swarms of satellites watching exactly what was happening in real time.

They know who fired it and where it was fired from.



Posted By: jacksdad
Date Posted: July 18 2014 at 6:59pm
I completely agree, rickster.

-------------
"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: July 18 2014 at 7:02pm
Local people in Ukraine claim the plane was shot down by a jet-fighter. The remains of the plane should be investigated to find out what has happened. (Certainly if it is a second plane from the same company involved in such an accident). 

The US/NATO and Russia is monitoring the area and if they have evidence be open with it. http://www.prisonplanet.com/was-malaysian-airlines-mh-17-accidentally-shot-down-over-ukraine.html - http://www.prisonplanet.com/was-malaysian-airlines-mh-17-accidentally-shot-down-over-ukraine.html


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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: Johnray1
Date Posted: July 18 2014 at 7:15pm
rickster58. You are 100% correct and our people knew all of this information with in seconds or minutes of the Missile being launched. Other countries know the same thing. I believe that our President and the other leaders are afraid to say that it was fired from Russian soil and show the proof.Because if they did that,then someone would have to enter Russia and arrest the guilty people and take them for trial. The US Army is the only Army on this planet that is capable of doing this,but Obama does not have the courage to give an order like that.It is not that America or our soldiers are afraid to this,but our President is afraid of Putin. I think that Putin gave the order, just to see if he could push the envelope a little more and he did and he is going to get by with it.----- We badly need a real President.------- With all of the dead Virologist,it would not surprise me if a deadly Viral Flu starts some time in the near future. Johnray1


Posted By: jacksdad
Date Posted: July 18 2014 at 8:42pm

MH17: separatists block international observers from crash site

Gunmen fired shots into the air in a warning to OSCE monitors visiting site where Malaysia Airlines plane came down

Representatives from the OSCE arrive at the crash site surrounded by pro-Russian fighters

Representatives from the OSCE arrive at the crash site surrounded by pro-Russian fighters
Reuters

  • 3:20AM BST 19 Jul 2014

Gunmen prevented monitors from the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe from observing the site where a Malaysian airliner crashed in rebel-held eastern Ukraine on Friday, the rights and security watchdog said.

Calling their behaviour "impolite and unprofessional", an OSCE spokesman said some gunmen in the area seemed intoxicated while others would not let the team of about 25 observers look at the wreckage of the Boeing 777.

"We had expected unfettered access, that's the way we work," Michael Bociurkiw told a news conference.

"Unfortunately the task was made very difficult. Upon arrival at the site ... we encountered armed personnel who acted in a very impolite and unprofessional manner. Some of them even looked slightly intoxicated."

He denied that the observers had been fired at by pro-Russian rebels, but said one gunman fired shots into the air, seemingly to scare off some civilians.

Earlier, the OSCE's permanent council chairman, Thomas Greminger, told Reuters monitors had not been able to secure an access corridor for the crash-site and that investigators had stayed there for only about 75 minutes before setting off back to Donetsk.

The United States said it was "very concerned" about the way the OSCE monitors had been treated.

"Those who say they are going to participate in or welcome this investigation need to give unfettered access and obviously, we didn't see that when these individuals were there for 75 minutes," U.S. State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki told a regular news briefing in Washington.

The United States wanted to see "a credible, international investigation," she said, adding that the U.S. government had offered to send personnel and resources from the National Transportation and Safety Board and the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Psaki said the Ukrainians had accepted the offer and the NTSB and FBI would each send at least one investigator, although it was unclear when they would go.

"And we of course will be responsive to their needs moving forward," she said.

World leaders have called for a rapid investigation into the shooting down of the airliner, which could mark a pivotal moment in deteriorating relations between Russia and the West. The United States and Britain said a surface-to-air missile appeared to have been fired from rebel held territory.

There were no survivors from the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, a Boeing 777. The United Nations said 80 of the 298 aboard were children. It was the deadliest attack on a commercial airliner and scattered bodies were seen over miles of rebel-held territory near the border with Russia.

U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Samantha Power told a meeting of the U.N. Security Council on Friday it was unlikely the separatists could have effectively operated that missile system without help from knowledgeable personnel.

Russia's U.N. Ambassador Vitaly Churkin called for an "impartial, open investigation of what happened," and warned against any attempts to prejudge the matter.

Bociurkiw said the OSCE intended to visit the site again on Saturday and spend the whole day there. "We unfortunately could not get much done today because of the behaviour of the armed individuals and the lack of access," he said.

He said the team could not find anyone to talk to about the airliner's black box, and that it was not clear who was in charge of the territory where the airliner crashed.

"The crash site is a very large area and there may be more than one group who holds sway over that area," he said.

He added that while the bodies had not been touched - they seemed to be lying where they fell, personal possessions appeared to have been arranged in piles as if "for show".

Some of the bodies showed early signs of decomposition.

"As for observing close up the wreckage of the Boeing 777 that was very difficult. The armed guards did not allow us very much leeway to leave the roadway and look at the wreckage," he said.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10977705/MH17-separatists-block-international-observers-from-crash-site.html - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10977705/MH17-separatists-block-international-observers-from-crash-site.html




-------------
"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.


Posted By: rickster58
Date Posted: July 18 2014 at 9:23pm
You know what bothers me from reading all the initial reports. That is the fact the Russian separatists located the black box recorders almost immediately and sent them to Moscow.

On whose orders?

IMO, Russia should be the last country handling any vital evidence to do with this disaster.

Why hasn't the US demanded they be handed over to a neutral country immediately?


Posted By: FluMom
Date Posted: July 18 2014 at 9:31pm
Hi Rick! Our experts on TV said the black boxes will tell us nothing since it was a surface-to-air missile. This FAA guy said it was more important to get samples of the residue off of debris. He said that they can tell what kind of missile and a bunch of other things I don't remember now. LOL, I am in the middle of getting a new kitchen my mind is gone.

So let them take the black box to Moscow it proves nothing but there was recording then an explosion. Putin is responsible it was a Russian Missile launched by Russian Minions. But like North Korea years ago nothing will happen. Sad for the families.

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Always Be Prepared


Posted By: Johnray1
Date Posted: July 18 2014 at 9:43pm
rickjster58. Putin gave the order.. As far as Obama ordering that they be sent to a neutral nation,Obama is not going to order Putin to do anything.I hope that we can survive 2 more years of this man. Johnray1


Posted By: rickster58
Date Posted: July 18 2014 at 9:54pm
Hi FluMom
I do agree the black boxes will tell little ..... it's the MOTIVE and Chain of Command I'm interested in.

Agreed Johnray1 - Obama is counter productive to the US and should be impeached immediately. His attitude of "screw Congress', I'll do what-ever-the-hell I want is just plain wrong. Everything he touches turns to S*it


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: July 19 2014 at 3:03am
http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/mh17.html - http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/mh17.html

Saturday, July 19, 11:40 AM GMT +0800 Media Statement 6: MH17 Incident

Media Statement 6: MH17 Incident

The below table shows the latest number of passengers and their nationalities of those on-board MH17, as of 19 July 2014:-

 

Nationality

Total

 

Netherlands

192 (including 1 dual Netherlands/USA citizen)

 

Malaysia

44 (including 15 crew & 2 infants)

 

Australia

27

 

Indonesia

12 (including 1 infant)

 

United Kingdom

10 (including 1 dual UK/S. Africa citizen)

 

Germany

4

 

Belgium

4

 

Philippines

3

 

Canada

1

 

New Zealand

1

 

Total

298

  

 

     

Malaysia Airlines is working closely with the respective embassies to notify the next-of-kin of the passengers.

Our focus now is to work with the emergency responders and authorities and mobilize its full support to provide all possible care to the next-of-kin.

Our thoughts and prayers are with all affected passengers and crew and their family members.

The airline will provide regular updates on the situation.

Families of passengers and crew may contact +603 7884 1234 (Malaysia) or +31703487770 (Netherlands).

For media queries, kindly contact +603 8777 5698/ +603 8787 1276. 

-end-



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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: July 19 2014 at 3:05am
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/17/777-shot-down-over-ukraine/ - http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/17/777-shot-down-over-ukraine/

We spoke to air catastrophe and air-defence specialists. Here are several points they drew our attention towards:

1) It is not a fact that it was a “Buk” air-defence system and in general nothing is fact for the air catastrophe experts before the investigation is carried out.  According to the Chicago convention, Ukraine has to carry out the investigation (as the jet fell down on our territory), and anybody can be included in the committee. For an objective investigation, we have to capture the territory where the jet fell, and at least document the parts of the plane, bodies, traces of the attack part of the missiles’ damage on video (is it is a “Buk,” then metal rods, if it is a C-200 – ball-bearing parts etc.), find the black boxes etc.

2) The air traffic services should have closed this zone for flights right after the AN-26 was taken down yesterday from a height unaccessible for the man-portable air-defence system. Before it was closed up to 8 (we think) kilometres, it was enough for protection from the man-portable system (the missiles are small and have enough fuel for 4-5 kilometres only).  From the perspective of civil aviation safety, the fall of the jet is our mistake and Ukraine should be the one to pay compensations. And this is a huge blow to Ukraine as an aviation transportation operator.

3) As to the “Buk”: in theory, for the system’s successful work, a minimum of 4 out of 5 vehicles within the complex is necessary: the commandment car, the target locator car, the targeting car and the firing point with the missiles.  One can do without the charging car, which transports additional missiles, in case the missiles have been set up on the firing point in advance.  15-17 highly-qualified military specialists are needed to service these military specialists.

4) The principle of action of “Buk” air-defence system: – under close supervision of the commander, the locator determines the target and the coordinates; – the operator of the firing system launches the missile in the given direction; – the targeting car lights up the target with radio waves; – this reflected signal is captured by the self-targeting system of the missiles and its computer corrects the course; – the missile explodes several metres before reaching the plane, sending metal rods flying everywhere that damage the fuselage, the engines, the electric system etc.

5) “Buk’s” range is 40-50 kilometres horizontally and 20-25 vertically. It is a general military weapon (covers the soldiers from air attack directly on the battlefield), and not an air-defence forces weapon.

6) The air-defence system’s locators show three kinds of targets (as radio signals):  – missile (one leading engine); – destroyer, storm jet or a similar small military jet (the turbine of the engine creates a recognisable radio signal); – strategic bombarder or transportation jet (a big plane with many engines). The latter category could include a passenger vessel, as the radio image is identical.

7) If it is a “Buk,” then:  – it could have come from Russian territory. The caterpillar track can take the vehicles even through fields; – it could have been part of the captured Ukrainian Armed Forces division (if they indeed had all the parts of the complex). However military specialists for such accordant work were clearly imported, the reserve army is insufficient in this case; – it could have even worked from Russian territory, somewhere around Kuybyshevo. However, the Boeing was moving with its cruising speed (about 900 km/hr) and during the fall its parts continued falling to the east because of inertia.

8) This could have been not a “Buk,” but a different air-defence system.

9) Additional materials regarding “Buk” –  http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/buk-2m/buk-2m.shtml - http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/buk-2m/buk-2m.shtml

10) But this is all in theory, we need EVIDENCE – data from civil radars, military equipment, satellites, CONTROL OVER THE CRASH SITE, not to allow the locals to take the parts for scrap metal et



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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: July 19 2014 at 3:06am
ETN received information from an air traffic controller in Kiev on Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.

This Kiev air traffic controller is a citizen of Spain and was working in the Ukraine. He was taken off duty as a civil air-traffic controller along with other foreigners immediately after a Malaysia Airlines passenger aircraft was shot down over the Eastern Ukraine killing 295 passengers and crew on board.

The air traffic controller suggested in a private evaluation and basing it on military sources in Kiev, that the Ukrainian military was behind this shoot down. Radar records were immediately confiscated after it became clear a passenger jet was shot down.

Military air traffic controllers in internal communication acknowledged the military was involved, and some military chatter said they did not know where the order to shoot down the plane originated from.

Obviously it happened after a series of errors, since the very same plane was escorted by two Ukrainian fighter jets until 3 minutes before it disappeared from radar.

Radar screen shots also show an unexplained change of course of the Malaysian Boeing. The change of course took the aircraft directly over the Eastern Ukraine conflict region.



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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: July 19 2014 at 3:08am
Malaysia hosted the war crimes tribunals which found George W Bush and company guilty as well as Israel guilty of war crimes, perhaps this is why they were targeted.
Update:  If, as claimed a BUK missile was fired at Putin’s plane.  President Putin’s version of Air Force One has extensive ECM modules capable of jamming incoming missiles.  Were a missile fired at them and it locked on, ECM, as with America’s “Air Force One,” would jam the missile systems.  It is also likely that Russia has a “back door” into all systems they build, such as the one the “Ukies” had deployed outside Donetsk..
We have no confirmation that Putin’s plane had a fighter escort but are assuming it did not.  Were a missile to have hit the Malaysian plane, evidence will be easily discernible and missile wreckage should already have been found.
As to whether an air-to-air or ground-to-air missile is found to be the culprit, we should know in hours unless that is suppressed.  Either way, John McCain’s childish threats, to only go after those responsible if they happen to be enemies of his “handlers,” was an unwise statement.

This is another quote from the VT-article mentioned earlier. I put this quote here because I wonder why Malaysian Airlines is effected twice this year. Most countries, including the Netherlands, could be found guilty of war crimes somewere in their past. (The Dutch East Indies-War 1945-1949 did see Dutch war crimes). 


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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: July 19 2014 at 3:10am
US surveillance which includes AWAC, drones and satellites is capable of detecting the launch of any air defense missile, ground based, capable of reaching the necessary 32,000 foot altitude.

Such a weapon would have been spotted in seconds and, as all such systems in the region are under continual surveillance due to the sensitive nature of the conflict and the history of allegations made, making claims we expect to be made outlandish.


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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: July 19 2014 at 3:26am
In the media I see a lot of finger-pointing on Russia without much evidence that is trustworthy. The phone-call-tapes from the Ukraine secret service do not convince me. AWACS-planes must have caught any surface to Air missiles, even when they were fired from western Russia-border area. (Even though the plane crashed 50 kilometres west from the Russian border). 

I have much doubts about the claim that separatist are responsible given the fact that this SA-weapon is that complicated to handle and the separatists do not seem to be that organized. Russian "advisors" would think twice before using such a weapon. Eventhough Putin was on his way back from the BRICS-summit in Brasillia (were the BRICS-countries started their own World Bank and IMF, clearing to road further for another worldcurrency than the US-petro-dollar) he did not fly over the Ukraine. 

Veterans Today is always pointing its finger against Israel. I do not agree with that. But they might have a point in saying that Israel has fighters based in Azerbeidjan. 

The first priority has to be bringing back the bodies. In Dutch nes there is alot of attention for the fact that whole families, father-mother-chlidren, are killed. It is disrespectfull that some media are pushing for military action while a lot of people are waiting to say goodby to their loved ones. 

The world has allready seen to much madness, we do not need more !


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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: onefluover
Date Posted: July 19 2014 at 6:08am
"Malaysia hosted the war crimes tribunals which found George W Bush and company guilty as well as Israel guilty of war crimes, perhaps this is why they were targeted."

GWB has strong genetic descention from the Netherlands (As do I. That's how I know). He would be more likely to blow up a plane full of sick chickens. If he were still president this event would probably have not happened. And we would be there on the ground by now if it had. What happened was exactly what appears to have happened. A sad mistake by amateurs that is now being covered up by Russia. Yeah, Bush did it-in so far as he was term limited.

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"And then there were none."


Posted By: jacksdad
Date Posted: July 19 2014 at 6:38am
I agree, Josh. The first order of business is to find and recover the victims who are still lying out there, including the 80 children and 3 infants lost in this tragedy.
There are at least three groups that know what happened - Russia and the US (who have eyes everywhere 24/7, especially a conflict zone with the potential for international escalation like the Ukraine), and the SOBs that targeted a commercial flight with almost 300 innocents on board. Now we have to hope that justice prevails and behind the scenes politics doesn't hand us a sacrificial lamb in place of the real perpetrators.


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"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.


Posted By: inthesticks
Date Posted: July 19 2014 at 6:45am
Can we please stop the Obama-bashing? Geez...you folks dislike the man so much that you spend all your time conjuring up hate and directing it towards our President? Give it a break! This is not the place for that crap.


Posted By: DANNYKELLEY
Date Posted: July 19 2014 at 6:59am
If the shoe fits!!

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WHAT TO DO????


Posted By: onefluover
Date Posted: July 19 2014 at 7:02am
Originally posted by inthesticks inthesticks wrote:

Can we please stop the Obama-bashing? Geez...you folks dislike the man so much that you spend all your time conjuring up hate and directing it towards our President? Give it a break! This is not the place for that crap.


So defending Bush is now Obama bashing? To defend, one must first be offended. Bush and Putin at least had a little sence of respect for each other - or fear. Tended to keep **** like this from happening. Tended. Putin has no respect at all for your president. We tried to tell you.

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"And then there were none."


Posted By: jacksdad
Date Posted: July 19 2014 at 7:12am
inthesticks - full marks for trying at least Thumbs Up



-------------
"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: July 19 2014 at 8:28am
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/ - http://www.washingtonsblog.com/   http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/u-s-government-lied-accidental-shootdown-commercial-plane-3-decades-ago.html - http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/u-s-government-lied-accidental-shootdown-commercial-plane-3-decades-ago.html

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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: carbon20
Date Posted: July 19 2014 at 4:16pm
no one has pointed out ,on Monday all airlines were warned not to fly in that "AIR SPACE'

as cargo planes had been shot down ,

but some were to SAVE FUEL.....


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12 Monkeys...............
1995 ‧ Science fiction film/Thriller ‧ 2h 11m a must for AFT


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: July 19 2014 at 8:01pm
Can you reference that pleasBrbrh


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: July 20 2014 at 9:46am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system The separatist would have used this complicated system. Most separatists, I understand their fighting force is proberbly under 20.000 fighters, are miners, not well educated poor people with Russian background. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donbass_Peoples_Militia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donbass_People%27s_Militia

There of course is the possibility that Russia stationed a "Buk-missile-system" in or near the Eastern Ukraine. But then again why would they do so ? The biggist threat comes from low-flying planes/helicopters not high altitude (above 7000 metres) planes. (I do not know at what altitude the planes that were shot down earlier were flying. The 'no-fly-zone' was below 7000 metres).  The claim that the separatists had a Buk-system was made by one journalist; http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/ukraine-air-force-jet-downed-russian-missile-24598894 - http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/ukraine-air-force-jet-downed-russian-missile-24598894

The US claims it has evidence that the separatists used one of the four missiles against the Malaysian civil airplane. (I also understand that the separatists would have used more of the 4 missiles) 

In the past there have been more civilian planes shot down http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents , in 2001 the Ukraine was involved in shooting down Siberian Airlines Flight 1812 from Tel Aviv to Novosibirsk. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

I believe only very good investigations, excluding bombs, maintenance etc as a cause (since this is the second Malaysian Airlines plane, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines both involving Boeing 777-200ER planes- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_370 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_370 can be a bases to draw conclusions. 

In the past Weapons of Mass Destruction, gas-attacks etc have been used as an excuse for action without good evidence. 






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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: onefluover
Date Posted: July 20 2014 at 11:15am
Dutch, in your post that mentions Malaysia hosted the war crimes tribunals, you seem to throw it out there that perhaps GWB and or the Jews are behind the downing of this plane. I'm sorry but I took offense to that. Though it is clearly true that many governments have been proven to set up false flags and or be at the root of dirty deeds, including America and Isreal, in this case I highly doubt either country is behind what happened on the Ukrain/Russian border. I love the people of the Netherlands and am as saddened and angry over this as anyone. All of the people on that plane and the countries they are from were innocent and deserve respect and then justice against those who would do such a thing. In time I am confident the world will know the truth of what happened and I support those, especially the Netherlands, if there is to be justice realized.

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"And then there were none."


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: July 21 2014 at 12:31am
onefluover, I have nothing against Israel, I do not want to offense anybody on this forum. I quoted Veterans Today and I did put the remark that VT always blames Israel with wich I do NOT agre ! Maybe you missed that remark ? (I put this remark also at that post by edit)

Sorry if I offended you, I am not on this forum to offend anybody !

I do want the truth, or as near as it can get, about this disaster that killed that many humans and could be used as an excuse for actions that are damaging humanity.


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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: July 21 2014 at 12:53am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBIRS - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBIRS The (US) Space Based Infra Red System would have been able to detect missiles like "Buk". 

Original SBIRS Low[ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Space-Based_Infrared_System&action=edit&section=4 - edit ]

The SBIRS Low program was originally expected to consist of about 24 satellites in low earth orbit. The primary purpose of SBIRS Low was the tracking of ballistic missiles and discriminating between the warheads and other objects, such as decoys, that separate from the missile bodies throughout the middle portion of their flights. The system was to have two major sensors, coordinated by an on-board computer:

  • a scanning infrared sensor, designed to acquire ballistic missiles in the early stages of flight.
  • a tracking infrared sensor, designed to follow missiles, warheads, and other objects such as debris and decoys during the middle and later stages of flight. The tracking sensor would be cooled to very low temperatures.

SBIRS Low's original deployment schedule was 2010, the date when its capabilities were said to be needed by the National Missile Defense System.



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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: hachiban08
Date Posted: July 21 2014 at 3:29pm
Per Good Morning America's Facebook: JUST IN: Rebel leader presents what he says are Flight MH17's black boxes to Malaysian officials

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Be prepared! It may be time....^_^v


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: August 04 2014 at 12:23am
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-mh17-michael-bociurkiw-talks-about-being-first-at-the-crash-site-1.2721007?cmp=rss&partner=skygrid - http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-mh17-michael-bociurkiw-talks-about-being-first-at-the-crash-site-1.2721007?cmp=rss&partner=skygrid  

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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: August 05 2014 at 1:09am
http://www.globalresearch.ca/evidence-is-now-conclusive-two-ukrainian-government-fighter-jets-shot-down-malaysian-airlines-mh17-it-was-not-a-buk-surface-to-air-missile/5394814 - http://www.globalresearch.ca/evidence-is-now-conclusive-two-ukrainian-government-fighter-jets-shot-down-malaysian-airlines-mh17-it-was-not-a-buk-surface-to-air-missile/5394814




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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: May 25 2018 at 2:11pm
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-25/bishop-demands-compensation-from-russia-for-mh17/9801056" rel="nofollow - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-25/bishop-demands-compensation-from-russia-for-mh17/9801056 and https://www.rt.com/news/427739-russia-rejects-mh17-downing-claim/" rel="nofollow - https://www.rt.com/news/427739-russia-rejects-mh17-downing-claim/

DJ-I do not believe "seperatists" did shoot down MH17-"seperatists" simply will not have access to this kind of anti-aircraft-arms. I do think that if there was a pro-Russian involvement it had to be related to the Russian Army. 

Both Ukraine and Russia did have BUK-anti-aircraft missiles. Ukraine 1-was responsible for keeping open that route-even with the dangers, 2-had most to gain by shooting down a western plane and blame it on Russia, 3-is part of the international investigation team, Russia is kept out of that team. 

DJ-I do think it is good to keep pressure on the MH17 mass murder. When an international criminal court would find Russia guilty Russia has a lot to explain. On the other hand-by keeping up international pressure-when pro-Kiev "groups" are found to be responsible Ukraine has even more to explain (since they were part of the investigation-team). 

There are many questions on the "official findings" (without any shown evidence). http://joostniemoller.nl/2018/05/het-jit-rommelt-met-bewijsmateriaal-bij-presentatie-van-raket-mh17/" rel="nofollow - http://joostniemoller.nl/2018/05/het-jit-rommelt-met-bewijsmateriaal-bij-presentatie-van-raket-mh17/ The victims and their families have a right to know who was responsible and why. (If a "Vagner" Private Military Contractor -pro-Russian group accidently shot down the MH17 it is a different story than when Ukraine Army did this on purpose to put the blame on Russia.)

Since the downing of MH17 there have been many "false-flags" aiming to blame Assad, Russia, Iran-MH17 could be part of that (criminal western) scheme. Like 9-11 (2001) (and the killing of JFK etc.) it is very likely that "there will be an open end". 

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/ukraine-s-joan-of-arc-accused-of-plotting-parliament-massacre-1.3433045" rel="nofollow - https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/ukraine-s-joan-of-arc-accused-of-plotting-parliament-massacre-1.3433045 Maybe some Ukrainians may tell what realy happened with MH17 ?


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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: June 01 2018 at 2:08am
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-05-31/sinister-choreography-mh17-probe-smear-russia" rel="nofollow - https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-05-31/sinister-choreography-mh17-probe-smear-russia DJ-The Dutch autorities want to push their version of the MH17 mass murder as the "only possible version" eventhough it is based on info from the Ukraine secret service (even on a telephone recording made a day before the MH17 was shot down). 

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/05/the-purpose-of-the-babchenko-hoax.html#" rel="nofollow - http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/05/the-purpose-of-the-babchenko-hoax.html#
DJ-The only possible conclusion has to be that western governments are using lies-knowingly-to push an anti-Russia agenda. (From the Assad gas-attacks in Syria, Skripal novichok attacks in the UK , Maidan-shootings in Kiev, to the MH17 story western governments are not interested in reality but propaganda.)


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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: Technophobe
Date Posted: June 01 2018 at 3:40am
Originally posted by Dutch Josh Dutch Josh wrote:

DJ-The only possible conclusion has to be that western governments are using lies-knowingly-to push an anti-Russia agenda. propaganda.)
I agree.  Of course they are!

Where I dissagree is in the reason for our side's push.  I do not think it is unwarranted; I think they are pushing back.

The evidence points* to the fact that Russia was involved in supplying Assad's regime with chemical weapons and that they did poison the Skripals.  They also have a history of this.  That is not a condemnation of Russia.  Their reasons are every bit as good as ours.  For instance, although Assad is a monster, he is almost certainly the lesser of two evils.  The West would probably benefit from listening to Russia occasionally, even if they don't like what they hear.

Nonetheless, we can't afford to not push back.  Russian politics are all about strength, that was their reason for putting Putin in power in the first place, so, if we fail to retaliate, we are seen as weak - and more of the same ensues.




*Points that way; there are no certainties as 'us public' will never be told the whole truth - by either side.


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Absence of proof is not proof of absence.


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: June 01 2018 at 1:21pm
Techno, 

I do not believe in "saints"-politics is always compromise with "reality". The former London eye-doctor B.Assad would have loved to stay a London eye-doctor-his older brother died-he had to succeed his father...to become a "monster" for western media. The same media that welcomes "crownprince MbS" from Saudi Arabia who jailed the rich (corrupt) elite in his country for money, Saudi Arabia-sept 11-2001 mass murderer-seems to be a welcome "monster".....

In july 1988 a US ship in the Persian Gulf did shoot down an Iran passenger plane-claiming that plane was attacking the US ship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 . In december '88 Lockerbie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103 happened-Libya was blamed while Iran did it in reaction to the july '88 massacre.

History is full of false flags and the outcome is disaster. You can not govern the world on lies !

You can not fight climate change on lies, deal with all kind of health crises (to many to mention-we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg, one may expect live-expectancy going down in most western countries) or solve mass migration, water, food crises on lies....

United we stand, divided we falll https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_we_stand,_divided_we_fall" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_we_stand,_divided_we_fall


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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: Technophobe
Date Posted: June 01 2018 at 2:53pm
Don't get me started on our deals with the Saudis.  "Deal with the Devil" is just the start - I don't want to show you where my bad language ends!  I hope you never see how ugly I can get.

I could not have a lower opinion of the whole house of Saud if I burrowed down under our deepest sewer.  My opinion of those who do deals with them is even lower.

Having just agreed with that sentiment and those following, I also totally agree with the last statement most of all.


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Absence of proof is not proof of absence.


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: June 02 2018 at 7:17am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGS1u12q2EQ" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGS1u12q2EQ Sir Anthony Beevor on the battle of Arnhem 45 min-why history 18 min, present from 1.23min. 

The truth in history takes time-after the US army crossed the Waal-river september 44 at Nijmegen they did "murder" 300 german pow's. The RAF-bombing campain over Germany had no military use after september 44. (Anthony Beevor)

Maybe the future will tell who was behind the downing of MH17 and why. The MH17-massacre is one of the reasons for a new cold war-wich is not a good thing for most (exept weapon-dealers Military-Industrial-Complex).

http://theduran.com/malaysian-airlines-doesnt-accept-the-russia-did-it-narrative-regarding-mh17-crash/" rel="nofollow - http://theduran.com/malaysian-airlines-doesnt-accept-the-russia-did-it-narrative-regarding-mh17-crash/
(with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Javad_Zarif" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Javad_Zarif in 1988 reacting to the US downing of Iran Airbus flight 655-in the video-now that same Zarif is Iran FM)


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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: June 12 2018 at 12:50pm
DJ-Long read but a good summary; Russia is kept out of any serious investigation, "evidence" from Ukraine is presented as fact.

https://southfront.org/mh-17-update-is-the-jit-investigating-the-truth-or-manufacturing-it/" rel="nofollow - https://southfront.org/mh-17-update-is-the-jit-investigating-the-truth-or-manufacturing-it/


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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: September 17 2018 at 12:28pm
https://southfront.org/summing-up-russian-military-briefing-on-mh17-incident-missiles-serial-numbers-fake-videos-and-intercepted-radio-communications/" rel="nofollow - https://southfront.org/summing-up-russian-military-briefing-on-mh17-incident-missiles-serial-numbers-fake-videos-and-intercepted-radio-communications/

(DJ-There were some earlier reports that the BUK-missile used had shrapnel that belonged to an older type of BUK-missile. Russia did not have them in 2014-Ukraine did. "Seperatists" could get control of a Ukraine BUK-but it is a complicated missile to use-you need several vehicles (a.o for radar, command/control and specialized crew) so in that scenario "seperatists"would be a crew knowing how to deal with such a system.

DJ-I do not believe Russia would allow pro Russia "forces not onder Russian control" to have such a system. So either Russia did bring down MH17 or "pro-Kiev/Ukrainian forces"did.

Besides that the airspace below 10km should have been closed-Ukraine was/is responsible for that. )

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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: April 30 2019 at 9:01am
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-29/evidence-mh17-case-doesnt-point-russia-or-ukraine" rel="nofollow - https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-29/evidence-mh17-case-doesnt-point-russia-or-ukraine
as fighting intensified in the months leading up to the MH17 crash. In March 2014, Bild am Sonntag cited German government sources who claimed that over 400 American mercenaries working for Academi affiliate Greystone were operating in Ukraine. The article was sparked by videos which had recently emerged online showing armed men said to be Americans on the streets on Donetsk, Ukraine. Academi issued a statement denying that any of their direct employees were in Ukraine but did not comment on the nature of their relationship to Greystone.

DJ-MH17 mass murder as a US made false flag ?

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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: July 23 2019 at 10:26pm
DJ-The Ukraine downing of MH17 was meant to be an excuse for western intervention in eastern Ukraine; https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-07-23/mh17-evidence-tampering-exposed-cover-ups-hiding-records-witness-misreporting-fbi" rel="nofollow - https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-07-23/mh17-evidence-tampering-exposed-cover-ups-hiding-records-witness-misreporting-fbi

"For the first time also, the Malaysian Government reveals how it got in the way of attempts the US was organizing during the first week after the crash to launch a NATO military attack on eastern Ukraine. The cover story for that was to rescue the plane, passenger bodies, and evidence of what had caused the crash. In fact, the operation was aimed at defeating the separatist movements in the Donbass, and to move against Russian-held Crimea."

https://www.zerohedge.com/search-content?search_api_fulltext=mh17&sort_by=search_api_relevance" rel="nofollow - https://www.zerohedge.com/search-content?search_api_fulltext=mh17&sort_by=search_api_relevance

DJ-When western governments are willing to allow to shoot down a plane with most western passengers as an excuse for intervention in a war there is something very wrong.

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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: September 09 2019 at 3:01am
https://southfront.org/netherlands-indirectly-admitted-own-complicity-in-mh17-tragedy/" rel="nofollow - https://southfront.org/netherlands-indirectly-admitted-own-complicity-in-mh17-tragedy/ :
Ukrainian special forces kidnapped Tsemakh from the DPR and moved him to Kiev in June. According to initial claims by Ukraine’s State Security Service (SBU), they detained the driver of a towing truck that transported Buk missile involved in the incident with Boeing 777 of Malaysian Airlines (flight MH17) over eastern Ukraine in July 2014. However, later, the SBU was forced to denounce its own claims. Tsemakh’s air defense unit consisted of one vehicle with Zu-23 anti-aircraft gun and was not deployed near the incident site when the tragedy took place.

Months of torturing and pressure by Ukrainian intelligence did not force Tsemakh to participate in the slapstick comedy show called ‘international investigation of the MH17 crash’. In fact, Ukraine obtained no real evidence confirming any Tsemakh links to the MH17 case because if it had, Kiev would never hand over him to Russia.

Therefore, the official mainstream propaganda turned Tsemakh into a ‘witness’ of the MH17 tragedy.

DJ-from the comments;

Why were the Dutch involved in the investigation?
(DJ-It was a combined KLM/Malaysia flight from Amsterdam-196 Dutch people got killed-bad question)
NATO members and what were NATO doing in the exercise in the Black Sea, which ended on the day the MH17 went down?
Why were so many civilian airline pilots, complaining of NATO interference, in their communication systems, during June and July, when the NATO exercises, using Aegis Destroyers and aimed at air communications, were operating?
Why were Ukraine involved in the investigation, yet, Malaysia, which owned the plane and according to international law, should have been involved in the investigation, were excluded?
Why did Ukraine demand that all information relating to MH17 was to be classified?
Why did they get basic policemen, with no aviation disaster expertise, to run the investigations, rather than than experts from the International Civil Aviation Organization?
Why was their no forensic analysis from the shrapnel fragments, from the entry/exit holes, which would have provided DNA analysis, showing exactly what missile took down the MH17. Whether it was a ground to air missile, air to air missile, or a mixture of both?
Why was their no public autopsy report, on the pilot and co-pilot of the MH17?
What happened to Carlos, the air traffic control operator, who sent a tweet out, regarding what had happened?
Why did the oligarch in control of Ukraine aviation and air traffic control, say he was sorry they took out the wrong plane?
Why did the air traffic control operative, responsible for the MH17, go on holiday the following day, never to return and never to be interviewed?
Why did the military pilot, who took off with air to air missiles, return on the day, within the time period, with his air to air missiles missing?
Why did the military pilot, who was promoted after MH17, for returning back to base with his air to air missiles missing, commit suicide later?
Why did the JIT show in their press conference, the BUK missile, complete with serial numbers, that was meant to take down the MH17, only they forgot to mention the missile passport, showing the missiles to be from 1986, during Soviet Union times, and which were despatched to Ukraine. Russia upgraded their missiles.
Why did they ignore the evidence, presented in a court of law, from Antaz-Antey, who actually produced the BUK missile system for the Soviet Union, Ukraine and Russia?
Why did NATO refuse to hand over their radar intelligence, which would have been working in the area, on the day concerned, owing to 'Exercise Breeze', over in the Black Sea?
Why did the US refuse to hand over their satelite intelligence, which was actioned, at the time and in the area, when the MH17 went down?
What did President Obama tell President Putin, when President Putin was flying over Switzerland and changed his flight path?
Who was expecting President Putin, to be flying through Ukrainian airspace, around that time of day, in a plane with a similar radar image to the MH17 and similar colourings?

So many questions, so few answers, yet.

Cannot wait for the German investigator to have a chat with the Malaysians.

German Detective Ready to Discuss Sharing Info on MH17 Crash With Malaysia... https://sputniknews.com/wor...

(DJ-Just like 9/11 the official story simply does not cover the events. To many open questions. Why was MH17 over a combat area ?)

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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein



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