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Tensions mount off the Chinese coast .Update |
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Medclinician2013
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Posted: November 28 2013 at 8:26am |
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Update 12/26/2015 I am going to restart this thread but am posting before doing so - this very likely could become a military confrontation in the China Sea by a China continuing to test limits. Update 10/27/2015 U.S. ship has passed dangerously close or entered the 12 mile limit - go to end of this thread for new news and videos... Med The cat and mouse scenario intensifies as the China, Japan, and U.S. send ships and bombers to violate a disputed airspace and ownership of islands off the coast of China and Japan. These may be military exercises, but they have put aircraft carriers and destroyers nose to nose off the coast of China. Also B-52s from the U.S. have violated the airspace above what the Chinese claim are their islands. USS George Washington, East China Sea (CNN) -- The deafening roar of state-of-the-art warplanes being catapulted into the air from its huge flight deck signaled that the USS George Washington was back in combat mode after its recent detour to the Philippines to take part in the aid effort in the wake of Super Typhoon Haiyan. Barely a week on and the 90,000-ton Nimitz-class aircraft carrier is now patrolling waters off the island of Okinawa as part a huge naval exercise -- AnnualEx 2013 -- involving dozens of warships, submarines and aircraft from the U.S. Navy's 7th fleet and the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF). http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/28/world/asia/japan-us-annualex-war-games/index.html?hpt=hp_t1As was posted on another thread, the U.S. has escalated the situation by violating the tension in the area by sending in B-52s. Hong Kong (CNN) -- Tensions are running high in the skies between China and Japan -- and the United States is refusing to stay on the sidelines. After Beijing upset the region by declaring a new air defense zone over a large part of the East China Sea, two unarmed U.S. B-52 bombers flew through the area in what the U.S. State Department said was a planned military exercise. The U.S. aircraft ignored China's new demands that planes that fly through the zone identify themselves and submit flight plans to Chinese authorities -- despite Beijing's warnings that it could take military measures against aircraft that failed to comply.
This will continue through the Thanksgiving weekend as well as three other ongoing problems- Obamacare to be further implemented Dec. 1, 2013, severe storms in U.S., and an ongoing Flu season. This is of course a time to put these thoughts out of our minds which can always be readdressed after the weekend. Yet monitoring the world situation, especially the Flu as AFT does, is being vigilant even through the holidays. Medclinician |
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Medclinician - not if but when - original
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DANNYKELLEY
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Yup
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WHAT TO DO????
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cobber
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A history of these islands being China's is quite solid.
The story basically is; they were under China's control since 1372. In 1895 the Japs "discovered" the islands and claimed them as their own. Supposedly, They had no knowledge of Chinese ownership, which is false. Evidence from their own historical maps defining it as Chinese. www. http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=:Sangoku-tsuran.JPG - wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=File:Sangoku-tsuran.JPG (i cant do hyperlinks so just cut and paste into google if you want a looksee) That didn't matter and the dispute has raged ever since.
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cobber
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http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/s/4/43/Sangoku-tsuran.JPG
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Medclinician2013
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The matchbox situation continues with aircraft carriers, destroyers, and warplanes swarming the area. The u.S. advising the airlines to respect the new airspace demands by China . At the same time a second potential conflict zone off the coast of Japan in the Okinawa islands. This is a classic scenario where "routine training exercises" are actually deployment of military forces at a time of conflict. Since then, there's been no backing down.
On Friday morning, for instance, China scrambled fighter jets after U.S. and Japanese military aircraft entered its disputed air defense zone, according to a Chinese military official. Col. Shen Jinke, a Chinese air force spokesman, said in Beijing that the two U.S. and 10 Japanese aircraft were monitoring targets in the zone. He said the Chinese air force and navy were identifying and monitoring all foreign warplanes in the zone. ------------------------------------------------------ A U.S. military official told CNN that at least one U.S. unarmed military aircraft and several Japanese military aircraft flew through the zone Friday without incident. The official said the U.S. flight was part of scheduled routine operations. http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/29/world/asia/china-japan-us-tensions/index.html?hpt=hp_c2 The announcement by China's air force that it had sent fighters and an early warning aircraft to patrol the zone came just a few hours after Japan and South Korea, following the U.S. lead, said their military aircraft had flown into the zone without notifying Beijing over the past few days, and would continue to do so.http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/11/28/china-dials-back-warning-on-its-new-air-defense-zone/ It certainly is irrelevant whether for the U.S. these are routine military operations. The arrival of Chinese fighter jets are not. There are aircraft carriers, destroyers, and warplanes clustered around several islands and one collision or mishap could trigger a response which would pull then into a conflict. What would happen if one jet or ship thought they were under attack? Tensions remain high over a few small islands and a high concentration of state-of-the art military firepower. Medclinician |
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Medclinician - not if but when - original
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cobber
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Funny how oil is involved again!
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Medclinician2013
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Continuing to monitor evolving news on this topic.
Medclinician |
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Medclinician - not if but when - original
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Saewolfe
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Certainly reminds me of Cold War games. Different players but the same "how far can I push you before you will react" scenarios. Lots of political things to consider. Chinese leadership trying to establish itself and Obama and Kerry showing they are weak when it comes to foreign policy. Obama foreign policy concerns me the most because the Russians will not bail us out of this one.
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alpha480v
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A new war is needed to take the citizens of America's mind off of the budget battle coming up in January of next year. That and the fact that the economy is not really recovering like Der Fuhrer says it tis.
What better way to cover up problems than wag the dog.
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Medclinician2013
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Well, it is happening. This is some indirect information I found focusing on the flagship of the seventh American fleet in the East China Sea. This was posted December 1, 2013. http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/30/world/asia/asia-us-navy-power/index.html?hpt=hp_t5 In the past few days, these hugely expensive military "assets" have been deployed on a high-profile combat exercise with an armada of ships from the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) off the island of Okinawa, playing out a series of scenarios including the defense of Japan and the response to a regional crisis -- timely given China's increasingly assertive behavior in the region. There are some pretty big sabers being rattled here. Medclinician |
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Medclinician - not if but when - original
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Medclinician2013
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Chance of China/Japan conflict growing, warns former State Department official
An article posted Dec. 3, 2013 by CNN indicates things are not getting better as an armada of ships and a large number of fighter jets are off the coast of Japan and China near the disputed islands. China has restated its claim and Japan is still pursing its ownership. http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2013/12/03/consequences-of-potential-japan-and-china-conflict-impossible-to-underestimate/?hpt=hp_c5&iid=article_sidebar Tensions between China and Japan, at their worst in half a century, are making conflict “much more likely now than it’s probably been in years,” the former top U.S. State Department official for East Asia told CNN’s Christiane Amanpour. If a conflict were to break out, Kurt Campbell said, it would likely be a “small skirmish, probably easily contained.” But the larger context, of "what is really the two great countries of Asia, China and Japan" is hard to ignore. "Tensions between the two countries are greater now than they've been probably in a half century." http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/04/world/asia/china-us-japan-tensions/index.html?hpt=wo_c2 (CNN) -- In public remarks that betrayed no hint of the tension between the United States and China over airspace above the East China Sea, China's leader welcomed U.S. Vice President Joe Biden to Beijing on Wednesday, calling the former senator an "old friend" and praising U.S.-China relations. Biden also made no public mention of the controversial Chinese air defense space declaration, instead focusing on the possibilities of good relations between the two nations. Comment: The fact no attempt was made whatsoever by Biden to resolve the issue as he met with The situation remains dangerous and there is no clear mention of any deal or the budging of either side to resolve the potential conflict. Medclinician |
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Medclinician - not if but when - original
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Medclinician2013
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Biden has moved from what was to be a friendly talk with China about economical relations, to taking the Bull by the horns and trying to be an effective Vice-President during a military standoff. IMHO Way to go. If this is not worked out diplomatically and with a nation that has nuclear arms that could set off World War III, it could ignite into a conflict which could spin out of control.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/04/world/asia/china-us-japan-tensions/index.html?hpt=hp_bn2 (CNN) -- The United States has "deep concerns" over China's newly declared East China Sea air defense zone, Vice President Joe Biden privately told Chinese President Xi Jinping during his visit to Beijing on Wednesday, according to a pool report citing senior administration officials traveling with the delegation. comment: The diplomatic credibility of the U.S. Vice-President is on the line here. |
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Medclinician - not if but when - original
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Medclinician2013
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Further information coming in to show the showdown off the Chinese coast will be a long term battle and involves far more than two areas of islands. It is an effort by the Chinese to expand their nation and claim a massive area off their coast.
This area, called an ADIZ (Air Defense Identification Zone) is more heavily monitored than the U.S. and Canada monitors their own zone. The rules for China's ADIZ include: aircraft entering the area have to file a flight plan and have to be in contact with Chinese aviation authorities. http://video.foxnews.com/v/2886444847001/china-tests-us-dominance-in-east-asia/ There is a need to defend the airspace and do more than a serious warning and then moving on. Perhaps a few weeks of "a small armada of ships" sitting nose-to-nose perhaps will not erupt into a World War. If they are there for a year as China shows no inclination to back off, we will see military conflict. Conclusion: The media is moving away from covering many serious issues in the U.S. At the same time there is an agreement on issues which is completely neither realistic or true. This spin is being pumped out trying to convince the American public while denying the facts and obvious problems. Perhaps as has evolved over decades our real possible enemy in terms of a nuclear confrontation is not Russia or even Iran. It is China. |
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Medclinician - not if but when - original
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Medclinician2013
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South Korea prepares to enter the tense standoff over China territorial expansion.
http://www.reuters.com/video/2013/12/08/south-korea-announces-new-air-defence-zo?videoId=274841050&newsChannel=china |
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Medclinician - not if but when - original
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Medclinician2013
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Nothing has eased up in the China Sea as American, Japanese, and Chinese warships and planes continue to gather and be dangerously close to each other.
http://www.interaksyon.com/article/76423/china-ships-sail-through-disputed-waters-amid-tensions-with-japan TOKYO - Three Chinese ships sailed through disputed waters off Tokyo-controlled islands in the East China Sea on Sunday, the Japanese coast guard said, the first time since Beijing announced an Air Defense Identification Zone over the sea. The vessels entered the 12-nautical-mile territorial waters at about 9:00 a.m. (0000 GMT) off one of the Senkaku islands, which China also claims and calls the Diaoyus, the Japan Coast Guard said. This is the first time that Chinese coast guard ships were spotted sailing through the waters after Beijing raised regional tensions with its declaration of the air zone on November 23. comment: China may put up another ADIZ claim off the coast of the hurricane battered Philippine Islands as well..http://www.interaksyon.com/article/76391/japan-defense-chief-sees-tensions-rising-if-china-puts-up-another-adiz-over-west-philippine-sea comment: U.S. Vice-president Joe Bidden did little to handle the situation except declare it serious. http://www.interaksyon.com/article/76265/in-beijing-apprehensive-us-warns-china-of-crisis-over-territorial-actions Conclusion: The U.S. administration is currently accepting China's new airspace claims. With more anticipated claims as China begins to try and expand its territory to areas well beyond its coast, the credibility of American military potency and ability to develop an effective foreign policy is taking a hit. With the entry of the Russian flagship Peter the Great on joint military exercises with South American nations last year near the Gulf of Mexico, we are seeing a growing tolerance to what would have sent JFK into a standoff and ready to go to war. This change in diplomacy may truly place the U.S. in danger. As we near Christmas, China Sea is a pressure cooker as well as the new conflict with North Korea with new territorial claim overlap its areas as well. Medclinician |
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Medclinician - not if but when - original
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Medclinician2013
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A Chinese vessel has been in a confrontation with a U.S. warship.
Original Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/13/us-usa-china-ships-idUSBRE9BC0T520131213 (Reuters) - A U.S. guided missile cruiser operating in international waters in the South China Sea was forced to take evasive action last week to avoid a collision with a Chinese navy ship maneuvering nearby, the U.S. Pacific Fleet said in a statement on Friday. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/12/13/chinese-naval-vessel-tries-to-force-us-warship-to-stop-in-international-waters/ This American warship, guided missile cruiser USS Cowpens, was confronted by Beijing’s new aircraft carrier Liaoning. “On December 5th, while lawfully operating in international waters in the South China Sea, USS Cowpens and a PLA Navy vessel had an encounter that required maneuvering to avoid a collision,” a Navy official said. |
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Medclinician - not if but when - original
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Medclinician
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Well, two years later - and as China has built its own base and island - we are on the verge of a real military confrontation between the U.S. and China a "real military face off"
This is sung to the tune of "Testing Limits" and the big dogs on the global block are increasing flexing their muscles as foreign policy continues to put the U.S. on the defensive. What is the real news? Did they go within the 12 mile limit? Would they fire on U.S. ships? Still as in the problems at the North Korean border - what would happen if a U.S. ship were hit? |
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"not if but when" the original Medclinician
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Medclinician
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Bad timing would you say as tension mount of the coast of China for this?
Medclinician The Real News |
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"not if but when" the original Medclinician
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Medclinician
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The situation continues to escalate between the United States and China
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"not if but when" the original Medclinician
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Dutch Josh
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War is always a big investment, the outcome of a proces of decissions. I do not rule out the possibility of "war by accident" but most times "war is a choice".
One of the witnesses at that hearing was Dr. Peter W. Singer, listed as a “Strategist and Senior Fellow” for New America, a Washington think tank. He titled his presentation, “The Lessons of World War 3.” He began his prepared statement with the following description of that imagined conflict:
None of the hearings saw any debate about either the likelihood of a major war or the necessity of winning that war. No one challenged the assumption that “victory” in a world war between nuclear-armed powers is a meaningful concept. The discussion was entirely devoted to what technologies, assets and human resources were required for the US military to prevail. |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Dutch Josh
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Tunnelvision is a proces in wich a wider view on a subject is being replaced by a narrowing vision that only can lead to one conclusion. In my opinion politicians who think that world war 3 would be good for their country (wether the US, Russia, China or North Korea) belong in a mental hospital.
The idea that the US would need to double its aircraft carriers from 11 to 21 eventhough at present only 4 non-US aircraft carriers exist means "the top Navy admiral" is talking for the interest of the military industrial complex. In a major event aircraft carriers would be on the top-target-list. In a world-war-3 scenario I do not think those carriers would survive the first minutes of such a form of madness. At the House subcommittee hearing on aircraft carriers, the chairman noted that one of the witnesses, a top Navy admiral, had expressed concern over having “an 11-carrier navy in a 15-carrier world.”There were so many challenges confronting Washington, he continued, that what was really needed was a navy of 21 aircraft carriers—double the present size, and one that would bankrupt even a country with far more resources than the United States. The Senate hearing on cybersecurity touched briefly on the internal challenge to American militarism. The lead witness, retired Gen. Keith Alexander, former director of the National Security Agency and former head of the Pentagon’s CyberCommand, bemoaned the effect of leaks by NSA contractor Edward Snowden and Army private Chelsea Manning, declaring that “insider attacks” were one of the most serious threats facing the US military. Democratic Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia asked him directly, referring to Snowden, “Should we treat him as a traitor?” Alexander responded, “He should be treated as a traitor and tried as such.” Manchin nodded heartily, in evident agreement. |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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cobber
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The USA should get the hell out of asia. In my opinion they are overstepping the mark and provocation may lead to cataclysmic dispute resolution.
Bombs and stuff
The rhetoric coming from the west about defending the south china sea is just ludicrousness. Anyone can see they are 10,000 kilometers from their boarders and are poking the dragon. The USA is seriously extended. The question is are they too extended. Not just militarily but also financially. I hope it doesn't end in a fight because the Chinese are very strong within their territory and i don't much care for bowing down to communist oppressors any time soon. |
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CRS, DrPH
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I don't read much into any of this.....the USA and China have been doing this for decades.
President Clinton sent two (yes, two!) aircraft carrier groups to Taiwan in response to posturing by the PLA, which I thought was excessive. Early in the George W. Bush administration, the Chinese forced down a US spy plane, and nabbed some nice intel from us in the process. I believe this is mostly for the consumption of their population, rather than any true strategic goal. China has to learn to live by the rules of international law, and they are so integrated into the world economy that I don't see a shooting war as possible. However, Russia is now a failed state with nuclear weapons, and a hot-head as leader. All bets are off with Putin.
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CRS, DrPH
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Medclinician
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This is part of a strategy to undermine the U.S. military and claim the China Sea area as part of China. The cat and mouse games although carefully monitored could one day result in an exchange of fire and set off a nuclear war. http://in.reuters.com/article/2015/11/13/southchinasea-usa-idINKCN0T12GA20151113 Our backing down in Syria and less than effective policy in the U.S., has sent a message to the world to get whatever they can during the Obama administration because under the next president, especially if Hilary manages to survive all the attacks, nukes will be launched or at least there will be a major display of force as Russia is doing. People are not that complicated. They watch, they consider, and they decide. They know what is weakness. They know what is strength and they know when they are being scammed. They deal with that enough in their Internet life everyday and we are seeing a highly informed global population who are fed up with the BS. People are not total idiots, on drugs, drunk, or in a coma. The U.S. had the atomic bomb, and was in control when they dropped two of them and ended the war. For 70 years it has been a deterrent. The military is taking a hit and without strong leadership and a clearly defined world strategy, they are trying to fight IS almost handcuffed. China is aware of the weakness and is exploiting it in their operations not only in the China Sea but in an imperialistic expansion in other areas. This is ironic. It is land grab time. There is a limit to how much we can push with launches and nuclear missile tests and muscles flexing, before someone will blow up something. It is only a matter of time - not if - but when - there will be armed conflict between China, the U.S., and Russia of some kind, in some incident either in Syria, China Sea, or the Gulf . It is inevitable. Never say never. That has been the tactical error of Hitler, Alexander, Rome, and nations and armies throughout history. When the never happens, kingdoms fall. Medclinician |
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"not if but when" the original Medclinician
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CRS, DrPH
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Med, I'm with you on most of your logic. However, the Big Powers need each other more than not, especially China and the USA. I'm not terribly worried about this devolving into a shooting war, much of this posturing is for the Chinese internal audience.
Also, Russia is starting to feel the pressure of taking an isolationist, threatening stance. Energy costs (price of oil) are dropping like a brick, and since that is their main source of income, they must be squeezed. Putin's adventures in Ukraine and Syria cost money, although they seem to be propping up his "Tea Party" support within Russia. Mistakes and over-calculations can happen, but I look at this nonsense as Kabuki theater sabre-rattling. It is looking as if Taiwan and PRC may reach some type of accommodation, so the the big flash point issue will be off the table soon (Taiwan is a huge investor in PRC, this was inevitable). As far as Japan, Viet Nam, Philippines etc., I don't see the USA going to war over their interests. Each of these countries have stuck the knife into Uncle Sam. |
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CRS, DrPH
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Medclinician
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The situation with China military forces on an island that has become a Chinese territory continue. China keeps flexing muscles in an area where there could be an incident.
Medclinician |
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"not if but when" the original Medclinician
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