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Armor piercing ammo

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Lone Wolf View Drop Down
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    Posted: March 16 2008 at 4:33pm
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sparrowminded View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sparrowminded Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2009 at 2:07pm
If you really feel the need to pierce "armor", don't fret when you can't find the officially designated "real deal".  In terms that relate to hand or shoulder fired weapons, there is virtually zero difference between "armor piercing" and standard FMJ bullets.
There is HUGE misconception over this.  In any situation that Joe civilian is likely to ever encounter, the heaviest "armor" he would want or need to penetrate would be the body of a car.  It may suit him to break an engine too, or maybe knock a hole in a building.  High velocity FMJ ammo is great for that.  In handguns, one would be far better advised to use a large caliber, such as .44 magnum or equivalent+, and the heavier hard cast lead bullets.  With shotguns, there are not many things that can hold out for long against rifled slugs.
Try a few experiments for yourself, if you can.  Rather than looking for a selection of different ammo types, I think it's far better to settle on a "do-it-all" round, and concentrate on building a good supply.  For the common 7.62 x 39, it's hard to beat the common FMJ.  For heavier, higher velocity calibers, such as .243; .308; .30/'06 and so forth, soft point "deer" bullets will deliver all that the cartridge has to offer.
It gets more important to stick to just one load with a rifle as range increases, because any change in bullet type or weight will change the point of impact.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2009 at 2:58am
This is fairly untrue. AP isn't designed to defeat body armor, it's to get through the skin of military vehicles at the people inside.
 
Modern AP has a tungsten/steel/carbide penetrator in the tip that can blast through steel plates, like those on hard plate lvl 3 and 4 body armor. In .223 this can be extremely handy. Without the Tungsten/steel/carbide penetrator, FMJ will not penetrate modern military hardplate body armor.
 
Most carbine ammo like 7.62x39 (AK47) .223/5/56x45 (Ar15/m16) and 5.45x39 (ak74) will not shoot through the outside layer of brick buildings. If it's a cheap cinderblock building with no filling inside the cinderblocks, sure a carbine will probably get through, otherwise they just leave little pockmarks on the outside. A rifle, like a .308 will get through with no problem at all. Any carbine round is as powerful or more than a .44 magnum. .44 Mag out of a carbine is tolerable, but outside 150 yards, you'be better served with the unbelievable amounts of hydrostatic shock the .223 produces.
 
Cars are a different story, even 9mm or .40cal will zip through a car as if unhindered. (Actually I think .22lr will go through most cars)
 
A .44 magnum will not break an engine block, nor will a 12 guage slug and even up to a .308 won't and i've tried. The lightest caliber I could find that would wreck an engine block was a .338 Remington Magnum after several shots and a .50BMG. If I was just trying to screw up a car, you  could feasably use your .22lr and shoot a hole in the radiator or oil pan.
 
I would prefer to offer the .223 as a better "Do it all" round. It's light enough that you can carry a pile, powerful enough to take deer sized game (Which includes game of the bipedal variety), plentiful enough that you can get it pretty much anywhere, and is extremely accurate out to 600 yards. Don't get me wrong, I have AK's, an AR in 7.62X39, and an SKS and love them. I just understand that a hit that's easy to make at 200 yards with a .223 AR is fully in the arena of luck with an AK or SKS, and only marginal out of the AR15.
 
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In any situation that Joe civilian is likely to ever encounter, the heaviest "armor" he would want or need to penetrate would be the body of a car.  It may suit him to break an engine too, or maybe knock a hole in a building.
 
Trees and brick buildings. Both of which need a rifle to go through adequately.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sparrowminded Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2009 at 4:03am
Admittedly, I haven't tried better built cinderblock buildings that were filled with concrete  Consider that most car engines are now made of aluminum, with either steel liners for cylinders, or flame sprayed coatings in the cylinder wall.  Aluminum engines are relatively easy to puncture.  BTW, in my very first shooting situation, I shot a Ford PU with a 390 from about 200 yds. with a 7mm Mag, where I thought the engine should be, and coolant came out from the side...
Most of my entry came from wondering what the average Joe would do with AP ammo.  Through a tree, OK, with the '06, but anything else would be done as well with a 180 gr. BTSP.
I read a big long story about metro police using .40 S&W (180 gr. Hydroshock) to shoot through a car.  Bad Guy took something like 8 hits, all of which penetrated less than 2".  He finally succumbed to multiple hits from a mini-14, which was first fired under the car, at his feet.
I've shot a few cinderblocks.


Those are entry holes, using my "standard" 9mm handload: 124 gr. Rem JHP with 7.7 gr of Blue Dot.  They penetrated one side, and stopped on the inside of the second layer.  The expanded bullets are shown below.  Interesting that the Glock (17) polygonal rifling is obvious in the top bullet.  Not so interesting is the failure to do a whole lot to the cinderblocks.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sparrowminded Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2009 at 4:24am
This dirty rotten editor won't let me keep writing after the second pic.  Anyway, this is where I wanted to reiterate that there is not much that can stand up to 12 ga. rifled slugs.  If you want to break into or out of a cinderblock building, your shotgun is a master key.  If you NEED to stop a car, it's better to shoot from the front, with any gun.  Things like timing belt/chain covers are typically made of plastic or brittle cast aluminum.  Then there's always the radiator, and maybe the waterpump that are fairly vulnerable.  Don't forget tires.  If you get theirs and they don't get yours, you're gone.  I really hate thinking about these things, but consider that bad things happen to good people, and you have to do something!
Back to heavy lead bullets in big bore pistols....  This DOES get the most from a pistol round for delivered energy.  On things like bricks and rocks, a 300 gr. hard cast lead bullet @ 1,200 fps transfers energy better than something going fast and light with equal energy.  A rifled slug knocks a BIG hole in a brick wall.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2009 at 6:14am
I see, I thought you were talking about weapons that would crack a cast iron engine block. (like most engine blocks I've ever seen) 
 
Everything else is fragile as hell.
 
Here's a good website to skim through for info on what does what, and what part of a car is cover vs concealment: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm
 
Actually that's just a good website in general as far as shooting stuff goes. They've got people that come up with the wierdest scheiss! One guy thought a loaf of bread would stop a 9mm or something like that. (It didn't even stop a .22 short)
 
I *LOVE* shooting cinderblocks! The little dust explosions and crack when your bullet impacts the block has a special place in my heart. A couple guys and I sat and shot cinderblocks to dust quite a few times. The first time around was a little eye opening for me. I expected a ricochet or worse.
 
I'm on a government computer so I can't see your pictures. Government blocks access to photobucket and all the other web hosting sites. Basically anything deemed remotely interesting.
 
I own a .44 magnum, but can not shoot lead bullets out of it. I've got polygonal rifleng and it'll lead up the barrel. I wish I could, it'd make shooting that bad boy a buttload cheaper. As long as good semi jacketed bullets are out there I'll use those. If I use lead, even if I alloy it as hard as I can, I'll still get a "KABOOM!!!" if I shoot it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sparrowminded Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2009 at 2:10am
A Poly-barreled .44?  Never mind all of the internet "gospel" I've read regarding lead in poly barrels.  My Glocks do just fine with copper plated bullets from Rainier.  If you're interested, check these guys:
http://www.scharch.com/products.php?cat=68  I provide that link because Rainier has been hard to get from Midway lately.  I dunno who makes them for Top Brass, but I have found fired .223 brass laying around with the "Top Brass" headstamp, so maybe it's in-house.  Maybe you know that plated bullets are generally quite soft.  One that I recovered from a cinder block (Rainier 124 gr. 9mm flat point) was not as deformed as the Rem. JHP's, but it was also loaded down by 10%.  When I bought those, JHP stocks had dried up.  I wouldn't use a plated bullet as first choice, but they're great as something to keep my better stock intact.  If they were all I had, they're still alot better than a sharp stick!
I recovered another that had been fired into a barrel of ammonium hydroxide (I think), which showed no deformation.  More importantly, it showed no exposed lead in the area of the bearing surface.  A plated flat point is an interesting bullet, because it acts like a FMJ until/unless it hits something solid.  After that it deforms, tho not as much.  That could be good in a hunting pistol where you want enough penetration to break a shoulder or penetrate gristle plate in a pig.
So what is that thing? D'Eagle is the only semi I know of in .44 mag.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2009 at 5:37am
Yeah it's a Desert Eagle that I originally bought as a Mark VII and have upgraded to the Mark XIX. Magnum Research is only fifteen or twenty miles from my house and I bought the conversion there and had it refinished in Satin Black. When it was Matte I would get corrosion on the grip whenever I'd handle the damn thing. The finish on it now is impeccable and beautiful and it's a pleasure to shoot. The pistol is unbelievably accurate and doesn't recoil anywhere near as much as a revolver being that it is gas operated. it's just a tad more than a .45 1911.
 
Be careful with ammo in your Glock. I watched a guy shooting copper washed (Not plated) bullets out of his Springfield XD. He said that if you clean it really good afterward you can do it. He had a KB a few weeks later at the range, and though he was thankfully uninjured, the chamber split at the four o'clock position and blew the magazine out the bottom, actually blew the bottom off the magazine, and cracked the frame, ruining the pistol. 
 
I personally am not going to take the chance and just bought a Jarvis Custom barrel that's lead safe so I can blast away with whatever I've got on hand at any given time.
 
That Desert Eagle works amazingly on feral hogs and deer. I used to live in Missouri and would go out in fields and nail those pigs with the .44. The farmers there would give you deer hunting rights and other bonuses for blasting the pigs. Apparrently they cause quite a lot of damage to their crops. I just used it as an excuse to shoot stuff. I didn't realize exactly how tasty they are until one of the farmers butchered one and his wife cooked it up for me.
 
It's no combat weapon by any stretch of the imagination, but man is it one mean hunting pistol!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sparrowminded Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2009 at 2:48am
Your caution is understandable.  I think the Glock 17 and 19 are quite over built, so I get more leeway than you would with a .44.  Consider that the frame and slide are the same size as for the larger calibers, but the barrel and breach are thicker.  At any rate, I'll be glad when "normal" bullets and loading supplies are available again, so I can shoot more!
I've been thinking of what would be the best little bolt action carbine, chambered in .223.  CZ has changed their pages:
http://cz-usa.com/products/by-category/rifles/    Having been impressed with the Ruger #1's I've owned, it would seem to me to be a step up to this one:
http:///cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-527-fs/  Twist is 1 in 14", so handloading would be a prerequisite.  Check the VZ 58 for what may well be the premiere AK variant, on the main page.  Always curious about the AK design, but never went as far as buying one.
Try this.  Go to the bottom of the main page and look at those BRNO rifles.  How could a healthy man avoid lusting after those?
I forgot that armor piercing was the subject here.  There is just one thing that could qualify as more important and effective.  Bullet placement.  With practice and experience, we go from "taking a shot" to "administering the bullet".  No need to observe or look back.  Just re-chamber, and move on.  I really hate to think that way!.......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Real American Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2009 at 2:27pm
can you dend armor piercing ammo to Florida, i'm looking for 30-06 rounds : approximately 20-50 rounds. I'm having a hard time finding ammo and when i do its out of my price range. I use ball ammo for target practice at my local shooting range but i want to make a few of my shooting buddys envious when it comes to steel target shooting. Please let me know or email me a catalog. Thank You, Preston Zwanzig
preston zwanzig
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sparrowminded Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2009 at 2:47pm
I have no idea where you would go for "real" AP ammo, esp. in '06, because it was decommissioned as a military cartridge so long ago.  .30'06 is pretty impressive already.
Do a Google search for "30-06 ap ammo" and you'll get a good many results, but be sure and read this:
http://nucnews.net/2000/du/98du/981204du.laws.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2009 at 8:55am
Old School blacktip 30-06 is extremely difficult to find, even if you find it it's going to be expensive.

I've seen pulled bullets that you could feasibly reload yourself, but not lately. I saw some at a gunshow a few weeks ago.

As always: Make 100% sure that anything you have is legal and within the law. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2009 at 6:46pm
Or say "SCREW IT!!!" and get yourself an M1A!!! Look what I can do! One inch at 100 yards!

Can't post pics anymore... Ouch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sparrowminded Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2009 at 9:04pm
I can, but the best I can do with iron sights is about 4 MOA.  If you're ever in the Las Vegas area, pay a visit to Machine Gun Kelleys', on Sunset Road.  He has a selection of M-1A's, including some "Tankers".  Fondling is free.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2009 at 10:57pm
No I mean a M1A as in the M14 variant that's not full auto. It's more or less the upgrade to the Garand.

I got a Garand too though.

M1A =

M1 Garand =

These are not my guns, just references.
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