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Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk

Will Egypt unleash another flu pandemic?

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    Posted: March 16 2015 at 2:13am

Will Egypt unleash another flu pandemic? 

Published online 12 March 2015

Avian flu cases have soared in Egypt, and now experts say bad practices, lack of information and lax policies could lead to an H5N1 pandemic.

Islam Hussein


Virologist Islam HusseinVirologist Islam Hussein
Hardly a week has passed in 2015 without new cases of human H5N1 influenza infection occuring in Egypt. With at least 46 cases and 13 fatalities in just two months, the number is higher than those reported in the whole of 2014. 

So, what is the status of avian flu in Egypt?

The story of H5N1 influenza in Egypt dates back to early 2006, when the first human case was detected in Qalyubia governorate shortly after the first outbreak that affected domestic poultry.

Generally, Influenza viruses are a large group of pathogens that peacefully inhabit the guts of wild migratory waterfowl. These viruses are continuously evolving and occasionally acquire certain genetic changes that enable them to switch hosts and gain a foothold in domestic birds and mammals. Some are endowed with the right key combinations for decoding human cells, causing infections that can vary from isolated and mild disease to devastating pandemics

In case of Egypt’s first outbreak, it is believed that this H5N1 virus was a passenger on-board of a wild migratory duck1 visiting Damietta, most likely from Eurasia. Once in Egypt, the newly-arrived H5N1 virus found a hospitable host that allowed it to spread and evolve into a genetically distinct group of “naturalised” viruses. The disease was declared endemic in 2008, and after this recent surge of human cases, Egypt now has the highest number of confirmed human H5N1 cases worldwide. 

Another important subtype, known as H9N2, was reported to co-circulate2 with H5N1 in chickens, with evidence of human exposure3 and a recent case of a boy in Aswan.

Fortunately, so far, transmission of H5N1 viruses from chickens to humans was very inefficient and no sustained human-to-human transmission has been detected. If these H5N1 viruses becoming human-adapted, and with the current volume of air passengers, an isolated outbreak could turn into a pandemic in no time. 

Pandemics don’t just cause deaths, which we know through modeling studies will be highest in developing countries, but have hefty economic tolls. A recent PNAS study4 has estimated the cost of an influenza pandemic to be somewhere between $374 billion to $7.3 trillion depending on its severity.

In an attempt to uncover mutations that could confer H5N1 human transmissibility, two Nature5 and Science6 studies forced some engineered forms of this virus to adapt to ferrets, a popular animal model for human influenza. Such studies give deep insights into the biological barriers that are keeping H5N1 viruses locked up in their avian hosts. An important finding of these experiments was that most H5N1 strains circulating in Egypt are 2-3 mutations away from those ferret transmissible viruses. So now Egypt is considered as an epicenter7, where the spark of an H5N1 pandemic could ignite.

Vague and volatile situation 

The WHO says the current global influenza situation is volatile, especially in Egypt. 

According to the WHO, the current global influenza situation is volatile, particularly H5N1 in Egypt. The recent sudden surge is raising questions, and not just among the scientific community. 

The preliminary findings released by scientists affiliated with the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) identified mutations, in a glycoprotein carried on the virus’ outer surface called hemagglutin (HA), known to enhance adaptation to humans, in the genomes of 52 contemporary poultry isolates. Also, scientists from the US Naval Medical Research Unit 3 (NAMRU-3), Egyptian Ministry of Health and the National Research Center have also studied sequences from four recent human isolates and found no evidence of changes known to be associated with enhanced pathogenicity.  

The significance of these observations remains unclear, and we desperately need to learn more about these H5N1 viruses. There is also a need to investigate whether there is a role for co-circulating H9N2 strains in the current surge of human influenza cases.

So, why is H5N1 rampant in Egypt?

The H5N1's place in Egypt is complex and multifaceted, but the continued rise in flu-related economic and human losses in Egypt can be traced back to three main factors. 

First is the influenza biology, which we have absolutely no control on. Influenza viruses will continue to evolve as long as their transmission cycle remains unbroken – which translates into an emergence of novel flu variants. Egypt is also considered a hotspot8 for influenza reassortment, and the current co-circulation of H5N1 and H9N2 strains provides a gene pool that is continuously being shuffled around; it could spit out a whole new beast any time. Our only chance in outpacing this virus relies on continuously monitoring its genetic changes by boosting our surveillance efforts. Scientists can make educated guesses and advise policymakers to adopt timely counteractive measures, but they need information. 

Another contributing factor is environmental. The majority of Egyptians are tightly packed in rural villages along the River Nile. Raising poultry in the backyards and trading them in live bird markets is a staple in this largely rural culture, which exposes humans to a greater risk of H5N1 transmission from sick birds. 

The latest FAO report says 87% of H5N1 outbreaks reported over the last few months occurred in household poultry, and the majority of human H5N1 cases had previously been exposed to poultry. 

Public awareness campaigns, which penetrate all layers of society, could significantly help in promoting healthier behaviour. 

Finally, if properly applied, the method of choice for controlling H5N1 outbreaks is via testing and culling of all infected birds. But this approach failed to contain the disease when it was firstly reported in Egypt back in 2006. 

Mass vaccinations as a strategy also failed for many reasons. Vaccination can help in reducing H5N1 transmission only if it is combined with other disease control measures, such as active surveillance, enhanced biosecurity measures and sound outbreak management. 

Vaccinating household poultry can be very challenging, as it relies on a door-to-door approach and the mixture of bird species reared in the backyards may not respond uniformly to the vaccine. For a long time, vaccinating commercial poultry relied on imported vaccines1 that did not offer adequate cross-protection against locally circulating strains. Eventually, a vaccine based on a local Egyptian strain was made, but not mass-produced to satisfy the market needs. 

As well, commercial producers don’t receive enough compensation for their bird losses, so they tend not to report flu outbreaks to their local government agencies. They already receive very limited veterinary supervision; they are left on their own to choose between various vaccine types and protocols, which results in varying degrees of coverage among poultry flocks across the country. 

Some farmers feed antivirals to their healthy chickens, a practice known to increase the risk of generating drug-resistant flu strains. 

Laws to regulate live poultry trade have been drafted, but never implemented. For any national influenza control plan to be effective, all of the above need to be revisited. 

Questionable preparedness

Influenza is as unpredictable as ever. Scientists can never pinpoint when or where a pandemic may arise, or even which strain will be the culprit. However, several scientific findings confirm that the Egyptian H5N1 situation is a bubbling volcano. Until universal vaccines, a current active area of research, become available, it is imperative to ensure that human H5N1 vaccines are at arm’s length. We know that influenza vaccines take about six months to manufacture. Our experience with the most recent 2009 H1N1 pandemic tells us that the rush production of billions of pandemic vaccine doses will not guarantee a timely delivery, particularly to developing countries. We need to have a system in place to ensure smooth supply in the event of a pandemic. Vaccinating Egyptians who are at high risk of H5N1 infection is also an approach worth considering.

It is in the best interest of the administration to forge a pandemic preparedness plan that brings everybody to the table, including government agencies and private industries, locally and internationally. We need to get prepared for the worst case scenario. 

doi:10.1038/nmiddleeast.2015.48

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2015 at 5:52am
Good read, but we won't be having an H5N1 pandemic in my opinion, but we may very well have a hybrid pandemic strain emerge soon.  For the last several years we've been averaging a new avian flu strain/outbreak around every 6 - 12 months - and spread.   What concerns me a little is that we're now due for another strain to emerge, and we may not be that far off now from a human a/i pandemic strain.   Not much time in my opinion. 

On another note, since we have never gone more than 40 years between pandemics,  and since we average one every 25 - 40 years,  worst case we will have one in 35 years from now.    I will be 82, lol.

Like I said, odds are swinging heavily toward a pandemic strain fairly soon in my opinion.   Either way you slice it, a new strain is about to rear its head as we are now due for another. 

Think back 5 or 6 years ago and the number of a/i strains we had circulating, and now look at today.   Clock is ticking..    This doesn't even factor non-flu strains such as Ebola and MERS, and the next one..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kilt-3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2015 at 9:18pm
I disagree Albert.

You are right in that a recombination with another flu clade is also very much on the cards - that is shift mutation but the H5N1 has drift mutated for years and only needs 1 more genetic change to make and its a 100% human flu clade with no watering down.

This thing H5N1 just has to make one more tweak and its arrived.

Do not think its out of the question because its killing people in Egypt right now
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GigaGerard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2015 at 8:18pm
Greater Cairo 18 million people, 70% in slums. Quite a place for the start of a pandemic.
http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/16399/cairo_the-myth-of-a-city-on-the-verge-of-explosion
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 18 2015 at 8:24pm
Throughout history we've had a pandemic every 25 - 40 years, and have really never surpassed 40 years without one in a very long time.   With over population and a constant stream of new flu strains emerging, I'm guessing we have taken that average to 5 - 10 years unfortunately.    You would think the next would be an avian flu pandemic with how many different strains are now circulating, but we will soon see.  Probably not a tremendous amount of time left before the next.    I've always also thought a super pandemic could hit around every hundred years or so (the last being 1918), which would put us around 3 years out.  Of course that's pure speculation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2015 at 5:59am
That kinda depends on how you define super-pandemics, Boss.  

We are currently in one (HIV/AIDS), which backs up your theory.   But, the really big ones before the Spanish flu  were the black death in the 14th century, the Justinian plague (possibly the black death again) in the 6th century and the Antonine plague (probably smallpox) in the 2nd century.  That averages out at one huge mo********er every 4-500 years.  

However, there have been at least 200 major outbreaks, large enough to make people sit up and take notice, in the last 2 millennia, that works out at more than one every 10 years.   So, it all comes down to where you draw the line.

Just to confuse things even more, increased transmission through air-travel and decreased severity through better medicine do rather muddy the waters.  Everyone is guessing, even the experts!  I think I like your figures: I might be able to argue them, but not with any real conviction or evidence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2015 at 6:21am
Apparently flu pandemics work on a clock.

Here's a quick story of how AFT came about on that clock. 

In early November 2005, I had learned in around the last 300 years we really hadn't gone longer than 40 years without having a flu pandemic.   At that time in 2005, the last pandemic was in 1968, 35 years prior, therefore, I "knew" based on history we were going to have one in the next 5 years and it was unavoidable.  During that time H5N1 was the frontrunner for the next pandemic so we launched AFT to bring awareness in a big fast way, and that's exactly what we did.  We put the pandemic threat on the map with AFT as we knew it was imminent 100%.  It was basically our way of yelling from the roof tops to warn the public, and world, to prepare now.   Having one of the first ever pandemic prep sites wasn't good enough,  and since I knew forums, we decided to make the site a dedicated forum so people could interact and work together in real time discussion.   Essentially, people could work with one another.   Anyway, yes the word got out about an imminent pandemic.  The bird flu scare of 05 - 06 was, well, us.  lol.  People then began to prepare worldwide and other sites and  flu forums started to spawn after/from us.   During that time, most people had never heard the term "pandemic".   I was an average guy so I was somewhat in the learning stage myself I suppose.   Our goal - alert the world to the pandemic heading our way as nobody else was.

Anyway, long story short,  4 - 5  years later we did in fact have the pandemic on the 40th year, but of course it was a swine flu pandemic, and old Albert was off a bit as I thought it was going to be an avian flu pandemic.   But again, on the 40th year since the last pandemic, we had the pandemic that we already knew was coming; Hence the "flu pandemic clock". 

And when we saw swine flu emerge out of Mexico, we switched gears and bought the domain swineflu.org for $8.99 as we were one of the first to see it.  It's difficult to buy a domain name like that before other people.  What can I say, we were the Michael Jordan of pandemic prep, lol.

Anyway, that's our story, and with pandemics and their timeline. 

Techno - Good point on the super pandemic time line.   

I've always found it a little disappointing of how people and gov't entities aren't very fond of us and really give us no credit or recognition, when we are  basically responsible for it all.   The hell with them.  We never did it for a popularity contest anyway, nor to make money.    In a super pandemic or a very severe one, believe me, people are going to be in serious trouble without us here.   You might say we're a natural at getting people through a severe pandemic,l and something we were cut out for you might say.   The other forums and sites are not in my opinion.  Getting through a severe  pandemic will go far beyond just providing news like the others.     

On a side note, there are many long terms members here who were a part of this 10 years and have stuck with us the whole time.   Hell of a team. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote talonstip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2015 at 11:11am
The question is has our medical technology, fast response  and general awareness to these diseases affected the 40 year timeline? Would some of these things like H5N1 or Ebola already flared into something much larger if they happened 40 years ago. I'm sure were having an impact, we might have already dodged the "Big One" for this cycle. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2015 at 11:56am
Great post Talon, but I believe we did in fact dodge the big one in this 40 year cycle for a little awhile, although we have 35 years max until the next, and luckily I will only be 82.  

There was a pandemic in 1957 and also 1968, with only a 10 year gap. 

As you eluded to Talon, I believe the cycle and timeline has in fact changed and has been reduced by around 50% with over population and many other factors.  I'm guessing the cycle could be around 10 - 15 years instead of 40, but who knows. 

Also keep in mind, the Spanish flu of 1918 was h1n1, which resurfaced again in 2009, nearly 100 years later.  I wouldn't rule out a mutated h1n1 version possibly hitting very soon, but I'm guessing we will have an avian flu pandemic within 3 years, possibly sooner. Just a guess.   2018 will be around 10 years since the swine flu pandemic, and 100 years since a super pandemic.      

Here is the cycle of pandemics dating back to the 1800's, in which we avg a pandemic every 25 - 40 years.  Again, i do believe the cycle has now changed and has been interrupted.

Influenza pandemics

Known influenza pandemics[29][30][31]
Name of pandemic Date Deaths Case fatality rate Subtype involved Pandemic Severity Index
1889–1890 flu pandemic
(Asiatic or Russian Flu)[32]
1889–1890 1 million 0.15% possibly H3N8
or H2N2
N/A
1918 flu pandemic
(Spanish flu)[33]
1918–1920 20 to 100 million 2% H1N1 5
Asian Flu 1957–1958 1 to 1.5 million 0.13% H2N2 2
Hong Kong Flu 1968–1969 0.75 to 1 million <0.1% H3N2 2
Russian flu 1977–1978 N/A N/A H1N1 N/A
2009 flu pandemic (worldwide)[34][35] 2009–2010 18,000 to 284,500 0.03% H1N1/09 N/A
Annual flu virus deaths (USA only)[36] 1976-77 to 2006-07 3,000 to 46,000 N/A N/A N



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2015 at 12:04pm
I will be surprised if the next one isn't 2017 - 2018.   I would personally bet on it, if I could, but that's probably a sick thought, lol.

On another note, if it's an avian flu (super) pandemic, the cycle will change again as it will deface this planet rivaling hell on earth.   An avian flu pandemic would be very bad as we will be looking at the seasonal flu each year thereafter as most likely being avian flu strains.   After the avian flu pandemic, each flu season will be severe after that point, I would think.  

All of this is speculation, but unfortunately that's all we have to work with.  

AFT is the best chance we will all have in an avian flu pandemic., since we're the experts, right?  Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arirish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2015 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by talonstip talonstip wrote:

The question is has our medical technology, fast response  and general awareness to these diseases affected the 40 year timeline? Would some of these things like H5N1 or Ebola already flared into something much larger if they happened 40 years ago. I'm sure were having an impact, we might have already dodged the "Big One" for this cycle. 



This is all true, however, forty years ago the Ebola outbreak would have been a rural event and easier to tame! In those forty years we've concentrated our populations while at the same time we've brought the human/animal interface into much closer contact! Because most people in the world don't grow their own food anymore we've created an agricultural system that in third world countries encourages abuse of antibiotics and created the worlds largest out of control GOF experiment! We've also improved transportation to the point that epidemics are only hours away instead of weeks! The only thing we can't be sure of is when!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2015 at 1:08pm
I am listening.  I hope lots of others are as well.  But remember, since time immemorial, the Cassandras of this world are generally ignored.  They are sadly often right too.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2015 at 2:08pm
my opinon is that if the spanish flu broke out now

 the human population would be sent back to the dark  ages,

the reason i say this is the world is a very much smaller place now

than at any time in the past visa vie --AIR TRAVEL 

the world is interconected as it has never been before

the Spanish  flu was so devestating and affected so many

because millions of people /troops  were transported   all over the world 

plagues have been stopped or very slow in the past because travel could take weeks

now around the world in days,

our sanatized lives  and meds have helped us prevent  pandemics

BUT LEFT US VUNERABLE 

when it comes it will be the 

"SLATE WIPER"

12 MONKEYS...........


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2015 at 3:05pm
Previous flu pandemics -

1918
1958
1968
2009
2018   Big smile

I'm leaning toward 2018 for the next, but that's my guess.  Most all pandemics have been influenza, except for the black death of course. and what techno noted.  I personally never thought of SARS, MERS and Ebola being a pandemic threat, but more like regional epidemic caliber threats.  It's the flu pandemic that you need to watch for.   Human to human sustained transmission, which is the flu.

You're right Carbon, a super flu (avian flu) pandemic would be a game changer that will change life as we know it for approx 24 months minimum, I believe.  If it was H5N1, well,  it will take humanity a generation to recover, if it ever does.   There are studies that indicate that once the economy shuts down, there may be no way to restart it.    

Anyway, this is why we as the watchdogs of the next pandemic are here.  And "when" it happens, we will work together to get people through it as long as we have internet.   Like I've always said,  the best answer for an avian flu pandemic is AFT.  Will go head to head with an avian flu pandemic and eat its lunch.   Wink



  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2015 at 3:18pm
While I tend to side with Albert's view of H5N1 being less of a pandemic threat than was first believed, one thing should be remembered when we disuss whether H5N1 could ever make the jump to humans - it already did in 1997, and was apparently spreading fairly efficiently.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kilt-3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2015 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by jacksdad jacksdad wrote:

While I tend to side with Albert's view of H5N1 being less of a pandemic threat than was first believed, one thing should be remembered when we disuss whether H5N1 could ever make the jump to humans - it already did in 1997, and was apparently spreading fairly efficiently.

It infected humans but didn't go person-to-person as a human clade of flu

It - H5N1 only needs one more genetic tweak to be a human flu clade.

Its close and every single time a human is infected with H5N1 in Egypt or China or wherever, it mutates a little bit more to become a human flu clade.

So if it can make all those other mutations and changes to its genes - it can and will make one more.

It is drift mutation tortoise race style while recombination is hare style - and it does both.

The H5N1 is still infecting and killing people and still mutating and still a real and present danger.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2015 at 1:09am
Without World War 1 the Spanish Flu might have not spread that far. Also earlier big pandamics were related to war. In my opinion were a disease shows up is also important. Ebola in West Africa is less a problem-limited travel, disease can be checked than a disease in Hong Kong or for this matter H5N1 in Caïro. Tourism is not as big as it once was for Egypt but still there is more travel to/from Egypt than to West Africa. 

There is something called a "fire-triangle"; you need temperature, oxygen and fuel to start a fire. I believe there are also basic elements for a disease to become pandemic. Most of the times a basic need is (regional) war. Yellow fever was a  big problem during the Napoleon-wars (and gave Haïti its independence from France in 1804 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_fever Due to yellow fever, in Colonial times and during the Napoleonic Wars, the West Indies were known as a particularly dangerous posting for soldiers. Both English and French forces posted there were decimated by the "yellow jack." Wanting to regain control of the lucrative sugar trade in Saint-Domingue, and with an eye on regaining France's New World empire, Napoleon sent an army under the command of his brother-in-law to Saint-Domingue to seize control after a slave revolt. The historian J. R. McNeill asserts that yellow fever accounted for about 35,000 to 45,000 casualties of these forces during the fighting.[45] Only one-third of the French troops survived for withdrawal and return to France. Napoleon gave up on the island, and in 1804 Haiti proclaimed its independence as the second republic in the Western Hemisphere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2015 at 1:35am
A few other remarks;

The first thing authorities do in case of a major healthproblem is getting control on the information. There have been arrests (for instance in China but also elsewere) for "spreading rumours on the internet". Media-campains to control what people should believe (and what they should see as spreading fear, false information). Controlling news is much easier than controlling a pandemic. 

The known risks can be checked for. You can try to control the spread of Ebola, H7N9 etc. You can even test wild birds for virusses etc. The risk might be in the unknown diseases that spread without showing clear symptoms in an early stage. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creutzfeldt%E2%80%93Jakob_disease) Creutzfeldt-Jakob-disease could spread by prions and might take up to 50 years to develop. 

When Ebola reaches IS-controlled regions Ebola will become a bigger problem. 
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The 1997 outbreak stemmed from exposure to poultry, but subsequent studies suggested it was moving between humans even at the point. This is from a 1999 article published by oxfordjourals.org -

"A few cohort studies were conducted among individuals known to be infected. These studies demonstrated that 6 of 51 household contacts, 1 of 26 tour-group members, and 0 of 47 coworkers exposed to the H5N1-infected persons tested positive for H5 antibody. The results suggest that human-to-human transmission might have occurred through close physical contact with H5N1-infected patients..."

It was already developing a taste for humans and I do believe we dodged a major bullet back then. It might not have reached full pandemic potential when the Hong Kong cull stopped it, but if we were to see seven possible H2H cases in Egypt today, I think we'd be justifiably concerned. And remember that the 1997 outbreak only involved 18 people - to find almost half as many additional human cases showing H5 antibodies is a significant indication that we probably had a first wave pandemic virus begin to circulate and fine tune itself to it's new host.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2015 at 7:34pm
Good information and very good points JD.   Also good post Josh.

Would definitely not be good to have any high path a/i strain go pandemic.   If it did,  it would of course become the dominant flu strain over a little time.  Could you imagine H5N1 or any of the others being the dominant flu strain each year?   Social distancing and isolation would become a way of life.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kilt-3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2015 at 8:54pm
I will say it again
The H5N1 only needs one (1) more gene change and its a human pandemic flu clade
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote onefluover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2015 at 9:07pm
Good and interesting posts, all. And hats off to Albert. Though I am mostly in agreement with Kilt on this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2015 at 10:18pm
I'm gonna be the skunk in the room here....

First of all, I find the evidence for ANY human to human transmission of H5N1 to be extremely weak.   Rather, I view the cases that occurred within families to be "clusters" with common exposure to poultry virus sources.....it appears to me that, if you inhale a real lung full of the stuff, you'll get very sick.  The poultry industry in Asia, Egypt etc. is largely a family business, and they literally eat/sleep with their flocks.  These aren't H2H cases, but exposure to a common occupational hazard.  

The evil docs, Kawaoka and Fouchier, believed that they amplified H5N1 enough in their gain of function (GOF) testing so that they had mutated it to where it could, if released, potentially spread in a human-to-human fashion.  I've not read their papers, but I know they seemed to enjoy killing ferrets.  They may have pushed H5N1 to the point where it could have become a pandemic strain, but my instincts tell me that H5N1 is not the one we need to worry about. 

The problem with this "pandemic" business is that there is a huge industry built up around perpetuating the fear of an imminent pandemic, rivaling the H1N1 Spanish Flu of 1918.   I've been studying influenza since 1979, and have followed H5N1 since the outset.  You wouldn't believe all of the money that has been spent by a breathless public health infrastructure to prepare for the "big one," H5N1.   

Bullocks.  Reviewing the "swine flu" fiasco during the Ford administration is illustrative of the harm that the public health folks can cause when they get carried away.  

There are at least 18 HA and 11 NA antigens out there, and reasons for lethality of these bugs goes far beyond the flavor of those surface molecules.   I'd say that H7N9 is far closer to becoming a pandemic agent, as it is a low-pathogenicity virus that seems to have saturated all of the fowl in China, including domestic and wild.   It infects birds without causing them to exhibit symptoms (low path), unlike H5N1, which kills its flocks handily.  Exposure of humans, swine, horses etc. to H7N9 seems much more likely.  

People get all whigged out by the high case fatality rate of H5N1, but they don't get whigged out by the high CFR of rabies (essentially 100%).  There is more to it than CFR. 





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote onefluover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2015 at 10:49pm
That's why I said "mostly". I also agree with you and Albert and others. H5N1 may be a Jonny-come-lately to several of the others but at best..., perhaps with Murphy's Law... It may take five or twenty more years but I think like in dial lock manipulation we're but one wheel away from an open gate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2015 at 11:50pm
we will not know what the final mix is until its on top of us

by then it will be too late to make a vaccine

millions will die many will survive

might not be this week /year  or decade

but the odds are in the favor of a pandemic sooner/later

h7n9 i feel more risk than h5n1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2015 at 5:27am
It's great to hear everyone's opinion on this.  After all , the next pandemic is what we're watching for.  I also don't particularly think H5N1 will make the final leap to humans, but it has come quite far in doing so since 1997 as some are eluding to.  Who knows.  These avian flu viruses seem to be more interested in fully adapting to birds at the moment with transmission. 

H5N1 will always be a wildcard as that super bug is capable of almost anything.   Very robust. 

With H1N1 everywhere, if it was going to mix, it probably would have done it.

On another note, I do believe we will see some sort of a hybrid pandemic flu strain surface shortly down the road., as it's not matter of if, but when, as they say.  Like we know, around every 6 - 12 months these days a new a/i strain seems to emerge, and we are now due for the next.   One of those could/will in fact turn out to be a human flu.  

There are only so many a/i strains and we're somewhat working our way down the list with them one by one as they begin to surface.    Pretty dangerous game as they keep coming every 6 - 12 months now.   

My personal pandemic-clock guess is still around  a 7 - 10 year gap since the last one.   Therefore, we're all dead within the next 3 years.   LOL   

 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2015 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by Albert Albert wrote:

  

My personal pandemic-clock guess is still around  a 7 - 10 year gap since the last one.   Therefore, we're all dead within the next 3 years.   LOL   


Clap

Thanks, Albert!  I think something is likely to wipe many of us out, there are too many people on this little blue pill, spinning in space.  

There are, however, some other candidates: 

a) all-out nuclear war - Czar Putin is showing himself to be batsh*t crazy, he is openly threatening NATO partners like Denmark with nuclear retaliation.  Really?  

b) Solar flare - we just had a nice Coronal Mass Ejection hit the earth, I didn't hear of any grid failures, but we are overdue for a Class X flare and Carrington Event-like CME any time.  

c)  bioterrorism - That is a big "who knows?" as far as I'm concerned.  We've had a big part of Africa awash in one of the deadliest Category A Select Agents (Ebola), vials of forgotten smallpox have turned up, etc.  Also, tons (yes, tons) of VX and Sarin were uncovered in Syria, I have no idea if they found all of it.  I don't lose much sleep over this one, but it is out there. 

What am I missing?   Quite frankly, I would welcome a nice avian influenza pandemic about now, it would help balance things out.  
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Originally posted by carbon20 carbon20 wrote:

we will not know what the final mix is until its on top of us

by then it will be too late to make a vaccine

millions will die many will survive

might not be this week /year  or decade

but the odds are in the favor of a pandemic sooner/later
 
This is largely how I feel as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2015 at 3:40pm
You both hit the nail on the head for me there, Chuck and Jen.  Hubby and I have a little game where we list all the threats to civilization and every list contains the entry "something we have not thought of yet".  Being unknown does make the odds a little hard to calculate though.

I hope you are wrong, Albert.  - Here's praying your track record will desert you.  I keep prepping, but I am sure I will never be ready, just ready - er.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kilt-3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2015 at 8:47pm
The H5N1 virus only needs one (1) more genetic change to make and its a human virus and every time human is infected in Egypt we take a step closer to the virus
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2015 at 3:57am
i here what your saying Kilt-3,

 but h7n9 is very much circulating under the radar not killing its birdhost

 but not very good for us ,

 i hav'nt had  a look at how much shift it would need to really have a

 bad affect on us humans ,

it seems h1n1 has taken a bad turn, this was the Spanish flu killing millions

so for me all cards are  on the table 

depends  on who's RNA mixes with who's
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2015 at 6:16am
I really don't know Techno.  I wouldn't bet on my guess.    If it does, we just lock our doors and wither the storm and wait it out.    Piece of cake (American saying).

Carbon, I tend to agree.  I believe H1N1 could be setting the stage.    My instincts tell me that H5N2 and H1N1 should not meet.  H5N2 seems to mutate rather quickly as H1N1 does.  Luckily they're on separate sides of the globe for the most part, but that will change in the U.S. in the next 6 months.    Keep in mind that the Spanish flu also originated in the U.S., and I'm of the mindset that the next could originate here as well. Seems to be on track for that.   North America is about to become a crock pot with H5N2, H5N8 & and its potential spouse H1N1, lol.    Bad luck that these avian flu strains are suddenly becoming entrenched in the U.S. 

Quite frankly, N. America better eradicate those a/i strains in the next few months, although I don't believe that's possible. 

I'll say again, this is all speculation. 

H7N9 has had its chance and didn't make the leap, neither did h5N1, but that H5N2 is now becoming a super bug in itself - and strong similar to h5n1.  That's the one that seems to be changing/evolving.   H1N1 and H5N2 should probably stay apart.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2015 at 6:40am
Pandemics which destroy a whole species need to fulfill several criteria.  They not only need to be contagious and lethal to members of that species (not quite check yet but working on it), but must also have an alternative reservoir host which they do not kill (check).  The real clincher/last nail in the coffin (ours) is then the amount of "local" contact between the reservoir host and the doomed species.

Local in this context would be global!

Without the reservoir host the local species dies out and then so does the disease.  New members of said species moving in to that area are then safe.  But, with a reservoir host there can be no re-colonisation without immediate contagion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2015 at 2:52pm
sorry Albert:

 the Spanish flu originated in the filling fields of France

was taken to  USA on troop ships

as far as i know.i may be wrong

I was see next post .........
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1918 Flu Pandemic That Killed 50 Million Originated in China, Historians Say

Chinese laborers transported across Canada thought to be source.

Photo of patience in an influence ward in France in 1918.

Patients lie in an influenza ward at a U.S. Army camp hospital in Aix-les-Baines, France, during World War I.

PHOTOGRAPH BY CORBIS

Dan Vergano

National Geographic

PUBLISHED JANUARY 23, 2014

The global flu outbreak of 1918 killed 50 million people worldwide, ranking as one of the deadliest epidemics in history.

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For decades, scientists have debated where in the world the pandemic started, variously pinpointing its origins in France, China, the American Midwest, and beyond. Without a clear location, scientists have lacked a complete picture of the conditions that bred the disease and factors that might lead to similar outbreaks in the future.

The deadly "Spanish flu" claimed more lives than World War I, which ended the same year the pandemic struck. Now, new research is placing the flu's emergence in a forgotten episode of World War I: the shipment of Chinese laborers across Canada in sealed train cars.

Historian Mark Humphries of Canada's Memorial University of Newfoundland says that newly unearthed records confirm that one of the side stories of the war—the mobilization of 96,000 Chinese laborers to work behind the British and French lines on World War I's Western Front—may have been the source of the pandemic.

Map of the origins of the Spanish flu.

Writing in the January issue of the journal War in History, Humphries acknowledges that his hypothesis awaits confirmation by viral samples from flu victims. Such evidence would tie the disease's origin to one location.

But some other historians already find his argument convincing.

"This is about as close to a smoking gun as a historian is going to get," says historian James Higgins, who lectures at Lehigh University in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, and who has researched the 1918 spread of the pandemic in the United States. "These records answer a lot of questions about the pandemic."

Last of the Great Plagues

The 1918 flu pandemic struck in three waves across the globe, starting in the spring of that year, and is tied to a strain of H1N1 influenzaancestral to ones still virulent today.

The outbreak killed even the young and healthy, turning their strong immune systems against them in a way that's unusual for flu. Adding to the catastrophic loss of lives during World War I, the epidemic may have played a role in ending the war.

"The 1918 flu was the last of the great plagues that struck humanity, and it followed in the tracks of a global conflict," says Humphries.

Even as the pandemic's origins have remained a mystery, the Chinese laborers have previously been suggested as a source of the disease.

Historian Christopher Langford has shown that China suffered a lower mortality rate from the Spanish flu than other nations did, suggesting some immunity was at large in the population because of earlier exposure to the virus.

In the new report, Humphries finds archival evidence that a respiratory illness that struck northern China in November 1917 was identified a year later by Chinese health officials as identical to the Spanish flu.

He also found medical records indicating that more than 3,000 of the 25,000 Chinese Labor Corps workers who were transported across Canada en route to Europe starting in 1917 ended up in medical quarantine, many with flu-like symptoms.

Origins Debated

The Spanish flu reached its height in autumn 1918 but raged until 1920, initially gaining its nickname from wartime censorship rules that allowed for reporting on the disease's ravages in neutral Spain.

Physicians began debating the origin of the pandemic almost as soon as it appeared, Higgins says, with historians soon joining them.

France's wartime trenches, ridden with filth, disease, and death, were originally seen as the flu's breeding ground. The flu's tendency to strike young adults was explained as the disease targeting itself to young soldiers in trenches. The theory also purported to explain how the illness spread from Europe to cities such as Boston and Philadelphia by pointing a finger at returning troop ships.

A decade after the war, Kansas was identified as another possible breeding ground, due to reports of an influenza outbreak there that spread to a nearby Army camp in March 1918, killing 48 doughboys.

But in his study, Humphries reports that an outbreak of respiratory infections, which at the time were dubbed an endemic "winter sickness" by local health officials, were causing dozens of deaths a day in villages along China's Great Wall. The illness spread 300 miles (500 kilometers) in six weeks' time in late 1917.

At first thought to be pneumonic plague, the disease killed at a far lower rate than is typical for that disease.

Humphries discovered that a British legation official in China wrote that the disease was actually influenza, in a 1918 report. Humphries made the findings in searches of Canadian and British historical archives that contain the wartime records of the Chinese Labor Corps and the British legation in Beijing.

Sealed Railcars

At the time of the outbreak, British and French officials were forming the Chinese Labor Corps, which eventually shipped some 94,000 laborers from northern China to southern England and France during the war.

"The idea was to free up soldiers to head to the front at a time when they were desperate for manpower," Humphries says.

Shipping the laborers around Africa was too time-consuming and tied up too much shipping, so British officials turned to shipping the laborers to Vancouver on the Canadian West Coast and sending them by train to Halifax on the East Coast, from which they could be sent to Europe.

So desperate was the need for labor that on March 2, 1918, a ship loaded with 1,899 Chinese Labor Corps men left the Chinese port of Wehaiwei for Vancouver despite "plague" stopping the recruiting for workers there.

In reaction to anti-Chinese feelings rife in western Canada at the time, the trains that carried the workers from Vancouver were sealed, Humphries says. Special Railway Service Guards watched the laborers, who were kept in camps surrounded by barbed wire. Newspapers were banned from reporting on their movement.

Roughly 3,000 of the workers ended up in medical quarantine, their illnesses often blamed on their "lazy" natures by Canadian doctors, Humphries said: "They had very stereotypical, racist views of the Chinese."

Doctors treated sore throats with castor oil and sent the Chinese back to their camps.

The Chinese laborers arrived in southern England by January 1918 and were sent to France, where the Chinese Hospital at Noyelles-sur-Mer recorded hundreds of their deaths from respiratory illness.

Historians have suggested that the Spanish influenza mutated and became most deadly in spring 1918, spreading from Europe to ports as far apart as Boston and Freetown, Sierra Leone.

By the height of the global pandemic that autumn, however, no more such cases were reported among the Chinese laborers in Europe.

Medical Evidence

Humphries concedes that a final answer to the mystery of the Spanish flu's origins is still a ways off.

"What we really need is a sample of the virus preserved in a burial for the medical experts to uncover," Humphries says. "That would have the best chances of settling the debate."

For the last decade, experts such as Jeffery Taubenberger, of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, have sought burial samples across continents, seeking to find preserved samples of the virus in victims of the outbreak.

Taubenberger led a team in 2011 that looked at flu virus samples taken from autopsies of 32 victims of the 1918 outbreak.

The earliest sample found so far was from a U.S. soldier who died on May 11, 1918, at Camp Dodge, Idaho, but the team is looking for earlier cases.

A broad number of samples from flu victims before and after the pandemic might finally narrow down its origins. Essentially, scientists would need a genetically identified sample of the influenza's H1N1 virus taken from a victim who died before the first widespread outbreak of the pandemic in spring 1918 to point to a time and place as the likely origin point of the pandemic.

One from China in 1917, for example, would fill the bill.

"I'm not sure if this question can ever be fully answered," Taubenberger cautions, noting that even the origin of a smaller flu pandemic in 2009 still eludes certainty.

Ultimately, "these kinds of [historical] analyses cannot definitively reveal the origins and patterns of spread of emerging pathogens, especially at the early stages of the outbreak," Taubenberger said, of the new historical report.

In the end, however, knowing the origin of the disease might provide information that could help stop a future pandemic, making the search worthwhile.

"I would say that the takeaway message of all of this is to keep your eye on China" as a source of emerging diseases, Higgins says. He points to concerns about avian flu and the SARS virus, both arising from Asia in the last decade.

The SARS outbreak claimed perhaps 775 lives in 2003, and avian flu A (H5N1) has killed 384 people since 2003, according to the World Health Organization, which is carefully watching for signs of an outbreak of the diseases.

"We have seen a lot of emerging diseases travel around the world in recent decades," Higgins says.

History has a way of repeating, he says, and research into the origins of the 1918 flu could help prevent a scourge like that from happening again.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2015 at 5:43pm
This is sort of like the old-timers sitting around, betting on which blackbird will be the first one to fly off of the tree branch! 

The take home lessons are:

a) risks of pandemic seem to be increasing, thanks to our Chinese friends and their "interesting" animal husbandry practices

b) avian influenza seems to be the strongest candidate, although no one can predict which ice cream flavor will be the one to break out.  Only HA types 1, 2 and 3 have been implicated in human pandemics, and this is no doubt due to very powerful evolutionary forces & reasons.  For whatever reasons, the ongoing strains of "bird flu" aren't jumping over....yet. 

c) we ignore other diseases at our peril.  Ebola, MERS etc. have shown this.  There are many candidates for respiratory pandemics including Nipah virus, coronas etc.  Also, true swine flu strains may yet jump out to bite us, this is rarely discussed.  

My money is on the one we aren't even considering.  You want something bad?  Weaponized rabies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2015 at 7:43pm
I agree, Chuck - the well established role that pigs play in novel virus propagation is rarely discussed, except in the context of avian diseases. Just wait a while though. With China taking over huge chunks of the world's pig farming industry with acquisitions like Smithfield Foods, on top of it's almost one billion strong domestic herd, there are going to be plenty of opportunities to produce a significant swine virus. And with pig farmers using four times the antibiotics prophylactically fed to beef cattle, things like pig MRSA will be showing up in ever greater numbers too.
Future's looking real rosy, doncha think?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arirish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2015 at 8:59pm
carbon20- Thanks for the article! Interesting hypotheses! My hypotheses has always been that the China Marines brought home as training officers and NCO's brought it back to Camp Funston where many of the Dough Boys were trained. I'm not sure what difference it really makes! In 1918 they weren't even sure what flu was! If there were as many strains and clades in 1918 as there are now no one would have know it! Was the first wave in 1917 really the first wave or did 500-1000 people die in 1916 and it just went UN-noticed? We'll probably never know!   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kilt-3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2015 at 9:14pm

WHO update shows ongoing H5N1 activity in Egypt

CIDRAP-4 hours ago
Egypt's health ministry has reported 17 more H5N1 avian influenza infections to the World Health Organization (WHO), indicating continuing ...


The cases were reported through Mar 17, raising the total reported to the WHO so far this year to 116 cases, 36 of them fatal. The new infections appear to have not been included in the WHO's previous update on Mar 14.


Unprecedented H5N1 levels

In a Mar 3 update on flu at the human-animal interface, the WHO said the level of H5N1 disease in Egypt over the past few months is unprecedented, but initial lab investigations haven't detected any major genetic changes in H5N1 viruses from people or birds.

The agency said the increase probably relates to a constellation of factors, including increased H5N1 circulation in poultry, lower public awareness of the risk, and possible seasonal factors due to cold weather.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 12:59am
Seventeen...
"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 4:22am
yes and thats what they reporting

as far as i know they only test for h5n1 if the patient has been around chickens....

not good
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.🖖

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kilt-3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 5:12am
When a flu virus infects a human cell it replicates and produces 100,000 more virus cells - every single one a mutation of the original.

Its what they do - its all they do all the time

H5N1 is mutating to humans and infecting more and more and more - a pandemic is coming
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 6:16am
Hi Carbon, good info on 1918 starting in China.  A lot of those details seem to have escaped my memory these days.  I suppose most all flu pandemics have originated  in China one way or another.    China and their pandemics have caused a tremendous amount of problems and loss of life over the years, and it will continue.

Did they say 116 H5N1 cases in Egypt so far this year?   They're definitely breaking the H5N1 record for infections.   Between h1n1, h7n9 and h5n1, researchers seems to sway away from the bad word of "mutated". 

You guys are all smart cookies.  This is the only site (and group of folks) on the planet that specifically tracks avian flu, and it's definitely the way (threat) of the future. 
https://www.facebook.com/Avianflutalk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arirish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 6:48am
Albert said "Did they say 116 H5N1 cases in Egypt so far this year?"

If you add in November and December of last year it's 145!
Buy more ammo!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kilt-3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2015 at 4:59pm
China has it too


China reports 4th H5N1 avian influenza case

Outbreak News Today-25 Mar 2015
This is the fourth human case of avian influenza A(H5N1) reported from China in 2015. Related: Egypt H5N1 avian influenza tally is 116 for ...
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