| PANDEMIC ALERT LEVEL |
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| Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk |
Bush: Military Will Be Used vs Civilians |
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ExaminedLife 
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 Topic: Bush: Military Will Be Used vs CiviliansPosted: March 07 2006 at 6:43am |
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This is a big topic lately. And the answer to the question being asked is just plain scary (as in American troops prospectively assaulting American civilians). Here is a good article demonstrating the the government has already laid the ground work to circumvent or outright repeal 'Posse Comitatus,' so take heed: http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Posse_Comitatus_A ct Posse Comitatus ActFrom SourceWatchThe means of defense against foreign danger historically have become
the instruments of tyranny at home. --James Madison. Posse Comitatus Act "The 'Posse Comitatus Act' (PCA), Title 18 of the U.S. Code (USC), Section 1385, states:
"Department of Defense (DoD) Directive 5525.5 extended the PCA to the U.S. Navy and U.S. Marine Corps. The PCA does not apply to the U.S. Coast Guard. "The PCA generally prohibits U.S. military personnel from interdicting vehicles, vessels and aircraft; conducting surveillance, searches, pursuit and seizures; or making arrests on behalf of civilian law enforcement authorities. Prohibiting direct military involvement in law enforcement is in keeping with long-standing U.S. law and policy limiting the military's role in domestic affairs. "However, Congress has enacted a number of exceptions to the PCA that allow the military, in certain situations, to assist civilian law enforcement agencies in enforcing the laws of the United States. The most common example is counterdrug assistance (Title 10 USC Sections 371-382 ( http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode10/usc_sup_01_ 10_10_A_20_I_30_18.html)). Other examples include:
"Military support to civilian law enforcement is carried out in strict compliance with the Constitution and U.S. laws and under the direction of the President and Secretary of Defense." In the Case of an Epidemic"President George W. Bush asked Congress on Tuesday to consider giving him powers to use the military to enforce quarantines in case of an avian influenza epidemic." [1> ( http://www.patriotwatch.org/2005/10/code-red-administration- slouching.html)
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Historical Orwellian Use Argues Against Weakening PCAA standing army is one of the greatest mischiefs that can possibly happen. ~ James Madison
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virusil
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 7:03am |
 great post,land of liberty..................
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ignorance.
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mightymouse
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 7:12am |
Quote from above:Establishing martial law in the United StatesFrom SourceWatchShould President George W. Bush proclaim and put into effect Executive Order 12919, "the President would put the United States under total Martial Law and Military Dictatorship. "The President need not wait for some emergency to occur, however. He can declare a National Emergency at any time, and freeze everything. Congress, and the States, are powerless to prevent such an Executive Dictatorship, as long as the President advises Congress in a timely matter." Folks: When the BF lands what is left of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution will fly, fly away - possibly never to be seen again as even the history books will be rewrittin. 'Lovers of freedom and democracy' ,may well become 'Enemies of the State'. Who loves potatoes? United Animal Farm of America. I hope with all my heart this never happens. How strange that as the US is trying to build a democracy in Iraq - we are losing ours. Very, very strange indeed. As the World Turns........................ |
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Nothing matters - Therefore everything matters
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virusil
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 7:21am |
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simple..cuba dont have petrol land of the free will be land of the fleeeeeeeeee |
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ignorance.
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ExaminedLife
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 7:46am |
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Indeed.
Guys and gals, everyone from the hard right, to hard left, and those smack dab in the middle should be up in arms right now about these statements by government officials. This is ridiculous. They are setting the stage for a military dictatorship to lay seige on the American Citizenry during the impending pandemic, when there is absolutely no need for such measures! Something less than the suspension of our constitution would suffice to keep order and peace, and even if it wouldn't, I'd rather pay that penalty than lose core civil liberties and possibly witness the U.S. Military firing on its brothers and sisters! |
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loosecannon
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 10:22am |
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I sit firmly on the fence on this issue. I don't want to see the military used to enforce laws and maintain order except in a true crisis situation. But, if civilian authority and law enforcement has collapsed, and it's a choice between an organized, hopefully well commmanded military, and me having to fend off 100 scavengers after my supplies, I'll take the military. If H2H bird flu breaks out in a region of the country, I WANT to see a quarantine. It won't stop the spread, but if it adds a few days to the prep time, and let's the docs get better prepared, then it's worth it. The danger isn't really with power, it's with abuse of power. This country, the good old U.S. of A. was settled by people who chaffed under the yoke of imperial rule and dictatorships in England and Europe. The founding fathers were all "malcontents". I think that if any leader was foolish enough to think that he or she could enforce a military dictatorship here, they would find out that the malcontents of old are very much alive today. I just don't think use of the military in a pandemic would lead down the road to a dictatorship. IMHO
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 10:26am |
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How about a new Election? Hold it this month, bring back Bill Clinton. At least he only played around with the interns. This doesn't sound good at all |
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FluMeNot
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 10:32am |
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People complain that the federal government didn't do enough during
Katrina and now they complain they might do something during a pandemic. Count me on the same fence with you, loosecannon. |
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Flu me once, shame on you......
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FluMeNot
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 10:38am |
LOL, siameselade. It was during the Clinton era that the vaccine researchers and producers were driven off. It is going to be very expensive and time consuming to undo the damage. |
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Flu me once, shame on you......
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 10:51am |
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Hell, it was Clinton who signed this EO!! but, let's be rational, who else besides the military has the manpower, equipment to do anything at all about BF?? Nobody!! If it gets really bad, food delivery trucks into the cities will need a military escort. There is just no way around it. Do I like it? No. But what else can be done?
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virusil
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 10:58am |
 bring clinton is not that bad,better than having the bushtapo
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ignorance.
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mightymouse
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 11:03am |
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You're all right - Could go either way at this point. Time will tell.
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Nothing matters - Therefore everything matters
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ExaminedLife
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 12:16pm |
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We have police officers and first responders to tend to civil matters.
Allowing or compelling our military to police our civilian streets, especially at a time of great need and hardship, is an Orwellian nightmare come true. |
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 12:29pm |
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ok skip Clinton back
 to Bush, now we shall have to see what actually happens. ?????
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 1:15pm |
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No, we do not have police officers and first responders to attend to this.
My husband is a medic, and no one in his organization, regional organization, or state organization has plans for this - no plans, no supplies, no extra equipment, no plans for extra man-power. There isn't even protective gear - no stockpiled masks, no googles, no gowns, etc. How many people do you think your local ambulance, fire department or police force have? Not enough - even if they did have plans, equipment and and supplies. I've read one state's plans for an emergency vaccination center. They were planning mass vaccinations - staffers to greet people, staffers to pass out forms, 20 triage nurses on each shift, people to do everything but park your car. Guess how many ambulance crews they want to have on hand to transport any patients who need medical care. One. When they do have plans, the people who write them have no clue and the plans are worthless. |
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 1:19pm |
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no, not much hope there either. Geez!!
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 2:08pm |
This is OLD news. The president said, plainly, during an economic press conference in October, 2005, that, should the Avian Flu become a pandemic and overwhelm the State and National Guard's ability to respond, US troops might have to be mobilzed to help out. The Press freaked out then. "Posse Comitatus!!" Know what it meant to me? That the Government has been trying to plan for this for a lot longer then they let on. Putting all comments aside, if the President could casually refer to this in a press conference as a side comment, that betrays just how used to the idea the upper level of the government already is. THAT was when I started sharing my thoughts about AF with friends and family and started to think about prepping. Frankly, I'm not crying about it. I hope to keep my head low. There is NO WAY our State National Guard is going to handle this, nor the police or fireman. It is quite possible that we may have to get used to the loss of some of our "civil liberties" as we know them...that's why I'm hoping to stay out of the way. On the other hand, letting sick people go and do what they want also can mean spreading death. A few years ago, Canada stepped up to the plate and quarantined against SARS....I wondered then....could we as a Nation have the same guts? I both hope so, and hope to avoid it. My personal pros and cons about this or any other administration aside: I don't think the goverment is just jumping for the chance to impose martial law and have the military polcing our citizens. I have the feeling that that is a legacy that no president would want. However, I hope, should it come to it, that the government has some kind of plan to maintain order, even if it requires the use of the military since I believe they would only be called for in the last extreme. It's not that I have that much faith, it's just that the alternative is worse.
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Penham
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 3:35pm |
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I would think the military would be the best choice to help out. Did they not help with rescue missions during Katrina? My son-in-law was stationed in Florida when a huricane came through there in the past couple of years and the military were out there in the community cleaning up and rebuilding both on and off the base in Pensicola, he had to stay in a shelter for two weeks so they could be close to where they were working. When we were stationed in south Texas (Navy) when our area flooded, who came and brought us sandbags? it was the Navy, who brought our kids home from school in boats? it was the Navy, it was not the local police they don't have the resources. I don't think this is as bad as it sounds, of course I grew up a military brat, then married into the military, I know first hand how they help in the community in emergencies. People think military and automically think something bad. I work on a military base and after 9/11 although it was really strange for the base to be on lockdown, cars searched to go to work, waiting in lines to get on base, machine guns stationed at the entrance of the base, barricade put up so you could not park within a certain amount of space from a building, soldiers carrying guns patrolling and watching and guarding every building where there were large groups of people (except for the fact they looked 15, LOL) I felt very safe, I did not feel threatened, I did not feel scared, I actually felt more unsafe off the base. I don't think this is as bad as it sounds. The military helps out in emergencies now. When we have tornados, the military is right out there with all the other volunteers helping out.
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loosecannon
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 5:19pm |
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The point though, is what do you do when you are short handed, half the police and first responders out either sick or tending to their own, and the other half overwhelmed by the situation? The military is the best organization left to keep things under control. They train for bio-warfare, their basic equipment includes many of the items needed to help them help others- gas masks, nbc suits, etc. Should we telling them to sit in the barracks while the cities fall apart, or have them on the streets maintaining order. Personally, if the projections are as bad as some believe, I think even the military won't prop the sytem up for too long. They may be the only organized government after the pandemic is over. Now that is worrisome. I want them to help maintain order, not think that military order is the rule of the land (whatever's left of it). |
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ExaminedLife
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 6:24pm |
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The point I'm trying to make is simple.
We have a history as a nation (Americans, I'm speaking of) to not break down the barriers between our regular military (not including National Guard) and let them regulate our civilian society. I rather like that history. There are inherent dangers to allowing the military, trained to fight aggressive campaigns on foreign soil, comport to a law enforcement duty on our soil. Some of you may not mind the blurring of these lines. I do. |
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 6:45pm |
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I served 8 years in the service, 4 years Army and 4 years Air Force and I am with you on this one! This could be a the start of a very bad thing, who knows! There needs to be proper planning and training. And being once in the service I know that that is not handled very well! Hurry up and wait mentality and no one knows what is going on. |
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 7:11pm |
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Compare apples with apples. Katrina was an event that was not considered a threat to national security (except briefly because of the oil rigs and refineries). Pandemic Flu could hit 5, 50 or 500 U.S. cities at the same time. This will trigger extreme response plans, suspension of laws and creation of new laws overnight, up to and including the suspension of the Bill of Rights. Reserve and active duty military will be given orders and they will follow those orders. The country will be protecting itself and if your 'feelings' get hurt in the process, thats just too bad. Get a grip now. This won't be a touchy-feely response to Preserve the Union. Prep-On |
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Penham
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 7:28pm |
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I will be glad to see the military help out in my area, the town I live in has ONE full time police officer and two part time police officers, we have about 20 VOLUNTEER fire fighters and ONE full time paid firefighter. We have no EMT's the closest EMT/ambulance service is 5 miles away in the next town. We have no clinic/doctor and no grocery store. We are 20 miles from a larger town.
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 7:51pm |
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I have tried to stay out of this all day and most of the night... but I have finally given in and thrown my better judgement out the window. Most here already know my theory on Martial Law. Yes, it will happen, as it will need to if we have a bad to severe pandemic. BUT the manpower will be soooooo limited that only hospitals, supply depots, fuel depots, clinics, and large urban areas with very high density populations will see troops on the street. Please remember that the troops put on the streets will be citizens of the country. Fellow Americans, Canadians, Britons, etc. They will NOT be shooting people unless threatened, and maybe not even then. Don't threaten them and they won't shoot you, simple as that. Remember that the Second Amendment to the Constitution is second for a reason.... it is there to protect the First Amendment. The First Amendment is the most sacrosanct of all the Amendments, and while Americans may willingly allow temporary suspension under the right circumstances, it will only be temporary. The government is facing a no-win situation. They will be cursed and indited no matter what they do or don't do. Will our country look the same coming out as going in? If it's bad, probably not. But how many here have championed the potential of difference on the other side? There is of course a difference in visions. Your wish is likely to be my nightmare. But we MUST be vigilant and we MUST be willing to challenge the nightmare that some are presenting here if it comes to pass. If we are not willing to do that, to stand up in defence of what is right, we will certainly deserve what we get. But as a last word... I don't buy into the conspiracy of evil government here, just responding to what some have posited. |
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araywood
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 7:52pm |
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Penham you are TOTALLY RIGHT!!!! I have lived in florida for 20 years. I have worked with the red cross during disasters. I have been around national guards men as well as soldiers. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES TO HANDLE THIS. I could go on with pages of stories of the aid, the help, the compassion. The have a job to do and do it in the most compassionate way possible. God bless them. I'm not saying I'm not worried but there the best ones for the job.
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Mahshadin
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 8:10pm |
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Think rationally, of course the military would be deployed in a worst case scenario. Do you see any other option for control of a situation that could be out of control in just a few weeks. The only option to contain when everyhting breaks down would be the military. You know all the disbelievers you talk to now, they will be the people panicing, and when you get groups of people together all panicing, well enough said.I n the Meantime people who are prepared and informed will be in control of their situation and surroundings. Just make sure thats you |
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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ExaminedLife
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 8:20pm |
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I'm not speaking about "helping" in the sense many of you are.
And I'm not speaking of using the National Guard, which is a designated citizen militia. I'm speaking of making split-decision, shoot to kill type judgments, based on potentially vague directives... ...maybe even incinerate whole town type decisions in the wake of a severe pandemic. People are simply okay with a use of aggressive, maybe even preemptive force by military personnel against U.S. citizens? And people are okay with throwing out some core constitutional rights, by using only the litmus test "because things will be bad?" |
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 8:20pm |
I agree that it most likely will be a GOOD thing. I am just nervous about how it will come to be. I am not certain that the government has a clear picture as to how this will work. And to tell the truth I totally understand that, considering that it is one big task to take on. I do not think that they coming into our towns will be evil. But I do not want to be forced to leave my house after I prepared and grouped in an area with hundreds if not thousands of others that could potentially make me sick. If this is the case I prepared for no reason. But, I do understand that they will be there to help and I support that. I just do not know what to think about it. |
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Fiddlerdave
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 8:25pm |
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Decisions to shoot down a fleeing family may be necessary. Other very difficult actions will happen. I respect the willingness, honor and ability of our forces to assist in an emergency like this. I am less sure of political leaders' motivations. IF I WAS COMFORTABLE THAT THE PANDEMIC WAS THE REASON RATHER THAN THE EXCUSE TO TAKE OVER MILITARILY, I WOULD FEEL A WHOLE LOT BETTER! |
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Dave
"Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for us"! |
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mightymouse
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 8:36pm |
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SZ - Well said and I agree with you in essence - I've always leaned Rupublican (am Independent and are you not a Libertarian? - so both lovers of freedom) but - there are a lot of strange things going on relative to the gathering of and abuse of power going on. A lot of perfectly sane and resonable people are starting to get a little nervous - left, right, and center. The three amigos - Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Bush - and Daddy Bush & new friend Bill - And Haliburton & Co. - and all these secret jails all over the world, all the documents being reclassified as top secret and being removed from public scrutiny - all the funny deals - ie; UAE now going to be in chargs of numerous ports - the total lack of any fiscal responsibility - the flagrant misuse of power in relation to wiretapping - etc. Fine and dandy it if is truly for terrorism but it is just a small stretch of the imagination to realize that todays citizen may well be tomorrows terrorist in the eyes of the government. How may people in government do you know that will willingly give up power once they have it. Usually they just want more and more. What will martial law do to elections. Will they be suspended - and for how long - indefinitely? Then what form of government will we have? It is truly sad when you cannot trust those under whose wings you reside. And don't get me wrong. I love the United States. And I love freedom. For over 200 years they have trod the same path - But now I see them being divided. Which one will be left standing? That is my fear.
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 8:39pm |
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Oh, crap. The military is made up, from the privates to the Colonels, at least, of people just like you and I, with families, etc. Most want to either do their time and get out or retire after 20. Even most Generals. *IF* and it's a BIG *IF*, the government were seeking a military take over of the peope, A) what would be the point? and B) would the military do it? We have a *peacetime" military, and, even during *war*, we have a volunteer military. This isn't some totalitarian state where the military follows orders against it's own people because they fear a bullet to the back of their head from their commanders. I'm afraid of the *reason* (H5N1) that the military might be called out, I'm not afraid of the military. PS. I don't intend on letting any mil in my area know I'm armed, either. That's the kind of thing where, for their own comfort and perceived safety, they may want to take my defenses away from me. |
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 8:45pm |
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I know MM... it does scare the crap out of me sometimes. For the reasons you listed and for some of the stuff I have seen wished for. Like I said your wish might be my nightmare. Yes, I am a Libertarian (with a BIG "L"). Most of government is offensive to me, let alone BIG GOVERNMENT. I have made the statement here previous (maybe before your time with us?) that I would rather die in the pandemic than to come out of it and not have my beloved Republic and Constitution intact. I took a lot of heat for that but what the heck, it's how I feel, no matter how corny other's here may think it. I love my country, I love her Constitution, I don't want to live under anything different. To me the Constitution is a sacred document. Those are not just words to me.... and the future DOES scare me, but I have hope. |
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mightymouse
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 8:55pm |
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Your hope is also my hope. Those that want an end to our Gov't - what are they going to replace it with? You will only end up with a bunch of small dictatorships just like in the mideast. I certainly don't think most will be any better off in that situation. I just see our government potentially morphing into something other than what the people who shed their blood for the birth of this great country intended. Power is being gathered and it's not the people doing the gathering. I guess you could say I'm a Libertarian leaning Independent. |
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gypsybeach1
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 9:19pm |
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there are a few ideas i would like to add here.
one-i don't think military will be called in on pandemic unless the situation were truely dire. two-if the situation is so bad that the military had to be called in it is likely that they will have re-activate some former members. with so many forced deployed abroad and facing a 35 percent or higher illness rate with a potentially 50 percent of that dying, it should be considered that the military will be severly understaffed to handle such a crises. three- Although, the vast majority of military men and women are good people, well trained, highly disciplined and compassionate, there are a few bad apples in every barrell. Some of these bad apples may have risen to high ranking positions, some may be bad boys with big guns, some may just be scared and trigger happy. All professions have people that do not make good decisions in a crises. When everyone is wearing the same uniform, how do you distinguish the good soldier from the militant, authoritative murderer. I happen to personally know one guy who spent 8 years as an army ranger that is a racist, sexist, narrow minded bigot who joined so he "could kill people". But my entire family joined and i know none of them would ever hurt anyone unless it was self defense. When they all wear their cammos, who can tell the difference? |
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outsidethecamp
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Posted: March 07 2006 at 9:59pm |
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IMO...
If this thing gets bad...Which I truly believe it is going to get, very soon,.... We're all on our own. EVERYBODY...  You want to pick a political party to support you...go ahead...  I'm not wasting my time or energy on this petty issue!Republican, Democrat, what the H$ll will it really matter in the big picture? This impending pandemic is HUGE, I repeat, HUGE. Political parties will mean nothing.  You want to talk politics, go watch Rush...Hennedy, or whatever...(My personal favorites) But...No mention of the BF there... Why???Too scary for the press Or even the big RUSH??? I challenge him to address this issue. It might be bigger than he is. God help us all... Peggy in MN |
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virusil
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Posted: March 08 2006 at 5:04am |
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canada is my second country,i came from a place(lebanon) that got civil war...........terrible.........terrible,the army was divided,militia.........warlords..............bandits....... .......call it,believe me for a christian like me to live in a muslim sea................i am sharing my history with you towarn you ,the problem is not the miltary,they will help,the problem will be the head,the president,and this guy is deranged.......this is the problem,i am not a democrat or a republican...............get it right ,the only problem is the head,and unfortunatly he got an empty one,so the miltary will became the bushtapo,and this is very,dangerous,not just for you but to every person on the planet. |
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ignorance.
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Posted: March 08 2006 at 5:16am |
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Well if any one goes out in it there IDIOTS!But there well be people that want to do harm to others!Its the Armys place to stop them and thay well.These may be a all new world when these is over!!
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Posted: March 08 2006 at 7:11am |
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"A few years ago, Canada stepped up to the plate and
quarantined against SARS....I wondered then....could we as a Nation have the same guts? I both hope so, and hope to avoid it. --------------------------------- The SARS quarantine was voluntary. In the next few months laws similar to the U.S. will be passed by the Ontario government, the equivalent to martial law." If I were an evildoer and read a headline that suggested that there were not enough law enforcement officers to go around, and the odds of getting away with any kind of a crime were very good, I'd consider it a jackpot. Keep in mind that these evildoers are processing the same apocalyptic information as everyone else, which is unlikely to contribute to their mental stability, and give further incentive to make hay while the sun shines. If it turns out that a lot of people die from this, it's going to take a long time to fill their shoes. In some ways the threats from a significantly altered society, in which many of its most productive citizens have been clear-cut by the Borg, concern me almost as much as getting ill. -------------------- "....it would be good to remind everyone that the cities and towns that coped best in 1918 were the ones whose citizens were prepared by credible sources of information. In those towns neighbors helped neighbors and they got through it with the least pain." http://effectmeasure.blogspot.com/2006/03/three-points-about -bird- flu-to-tell.html |
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AnnE
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Joined: February 06 2006 Status: Offline Points: 84 |
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Posted: March 08 2006 at 7:32am |
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Do all military presonel have enough masks and PPE to keep them from getting H5N1 while they are "Protecting" us? If it gets bad enough to warrent a quarantine, what's to say military personel are immune? If they come to my neighborhood they'll be outside with the geese and the birds and the poo flying around in the wind. They will be doing well just to keep the watter running and the lights on. Prep on, lock and load.
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ExaminedLife
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Joined: March 03 2006 Status: Offline Points: 124 |
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Posted: March 08 2006 at 8:42am |
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I must say that I'm disenchanted with the willingness of some members here to sacrifice civil liberties and constitutionally guaranteed rights (not privileges, but rights) on the theory that government is benevolent and "just wants to keep us safe."
That's a naive, and quite frankly, very dangerous attitude. "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." -- Benjamin Franklin |
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mightymouse
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Joined: January 27 2006 Status: Offline Points: 487 |
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Posted: March 08 2006 at 9:17am |
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Sad to say that at this point - it is the majority attitude - just like the majority attitude in the US is that the BF is not a big deal. It will take time and circumstance for the reality of a situation to hit home. And by then, alas, it will be too late. Most people on this forum are BF conscious but that consciousness does not seem to extend to civil liberties.
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Nothing matters - Therefore everything matters
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Posted: March 08 2006 at 9:25am |
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mightymouse phophetic as usual. Thing is, as I've said all along, the military
might not surface since they will die off when exposed and that would be bad news for national defence. They will be hiring guns as proxy militia. Pay should be good though and a little on the scarry side. |
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daddog36
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Joined: February 23 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 119 |
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Posted: March 08 2006 at 9:36am |
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Mighty mouse freedom is just a pretty little word backed up by force. I heard that in a Video game years ago, allways liked the saying.
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daddog36
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mightymouse
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Posted: March 08 2006 at 9:45am |
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Harp- Remember the Press Gangs of Jolly Old England. Hence glass bottomed tankards. Wake up with a hangover in the Service of Her Majesty. Yee Hah! daddog36 - Right! Freedom is often gained at the end of a barrel and is lost the same way. Full circle. |
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Nothing matters - Therefore everything matters
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Posted: March 08 2006 at 9:55am |
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Mightymouse. So right. So does that mean the pay will not be so good then?
I was thinking of volunteering as long as I can ride the tea wagons!!!! |
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siameselade wrote: