Click to Translate to English Click to Translate to French  Click to Translate to Spanish  Click to Translate to German  Click to Translate to Italian  Click to Translate to Japanese  Click to Translate to Chinese Simplified  Click to Translate to Korean  Click to Translate to Arabic  Click to Translate to Russian  Click to Translate to Portuguese  Click to Translate to Myanmar (Burmese)

PANDEMIC ALERT LEVEL
123456
Forum Home Forum Home > Main Forums > Latest News
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Canada  Bird flu
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk

Canada Bird flu

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
Message
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 3:25pm
Organ Damage Raises H5N1 Concerns in Canada

Recombinomics Commentary

June 20, 2006

Four of 11 geese died Monday. A post-mortem examination of the bird was inconclusive, said Clark, who noted a number of diseases could have caused the organ damage seen.

The above comments do not appear to rule out high pathogenic avian influenza as the cause of the organ damage in one of the geese that died June 5.  Thus, the comments add to the data indicating the Prince Edward Island geese deaths were due to the Qinghai strain of H5N1.

Initial testing
confirmed that H5 infected the four geese that died after displaying symptoms on June 4.  Symptoms, followed by waterfowl death are hallmarks of the Qinghai strain of H5N1.  Low pathogenic H5 isolates do not usually kill waterfowl. Frequently, only a drop in egg production is noted.

The above comments on organ damage are in marked contrast to the
OIE description of an H5 positive duck in British Columbia in 2005.  That infection was from a low path H5N2 and the description of autopsy results indicated there was no evidence of active infectious disease

The suspect bird was a 40-day-old meat duck collected at processing. The bird was in excellent body condition with submitting criteria of dermatitis. No other visible lesions and no indication of any active disease process were observed on post-mortem examination.

Thus, there were four geese that had symptoms of H5N1 infection on Prince Edward Island.  One of the birds was tested and was positive for H5 and the autopsy identified organ damage consistent with an H5N1 infection.

News is expected today or tomorrow from the National Labs in Winnipeg.  Sequence data is expected, which will determine if the H5N1 cleavage site is present and additional sequence data can easily distinguish between North America and Qinghai polymorphisms.

At this time, the released information clearly points toward the H5N1 Qinghai strain of bird flu.

Media Sources

Phylogentic Tree












Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 3:32pm

Federal lab needs 12 more days to confirm if avian flu has hit P.E.I.

Canadian Press

The questions raised by the discovery of an H5 avian flu virus on a Prince Edward Island poultry farm can't yet be put to rest. The Canadian Food Inspection Agency announced Tuesday that its laboratory could not find any avian flu viruses in samples taken from the birds on the farm.

The negative results don't mean the original finding was false. But this development does mean that the agency's lab will now have to try to inoculate eggs with material from the bird samples. If they succeed in growing virus, test results in about 12 days could indicate what the virus was.

“We can't produce the same test result in Winnipeg that the Atlantic Veterinary College produced on testing the samples,” Dr. Jim Clark, national manager of CFIA's avian influenza working group, said in a conference call for journalists.

< =text/ ads="1">aPs="boxR"; < =text/>var boxRAC = fnTdo('a'+'ai',300,250,ai,'j',nc);

“All samples that we have in Winnipeg have been tested, with negative results.”

The testing was done at CFIA's National Centre for Foreign Animal Diseases in Winnipeg.

While signs point to an avian influenza virus of low pathogenicity, this setback means it will be at least another 12 days before the agency can answer the question the original finding posed: Is this the first sign of the Asian H5N1 avian flu virus in North America?

CFIA officials don't think so. Clark said the agency was lifting a quarantine imposed on a second farm because of lack of disease among birds there.

The quarantine was ordered Sunday after CFIA investigators learned there has been human traffic — and perhaps movement of poultry — between the two farms. Samples from the second farm also failed to show evidence of avian influenza viruses, Clark said.

Four geese at the first farm died on June 5. But the remainder of the birds in the mixed, free-range flock — additional geese, ducks and chickens — were healthy. CFIA takes the lack of illness in the chickens as a positive sign; the Asian H5N1 viruses have been lethal to chickens.

The entire flock has since been euthanized as a precautionary measure.

The worrisome Asian H5N1 virus has infected at least 228 people — killing 130 of them — in 10 countries across Asia, eastern Europe and North Africa. More than 50 countries to date have reported finding the virus in either poultry flocks or in wild birds.

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 3:44pm
Press release from CANADIAN FOOD INSPECTION AGENCY

JUNE 20, 2006 - 18:12 ET  
 
CFIA/No Additional Evidence of Avian Influenza Found in P.E.I. Backyard Flock
 
OTTAWA, ONTARIO--(CCNMatthews - June 20, 2006) - Testing by Canada's avian influenza (AI) reference laboratory in Winnipeg has found no additional evidence of AI virus in birds from a small backyard flock in western Prince Edward Island.

Samples from the flock, including an index bird, were sent to the Winnipeg lab for confirmatory testing consistent with Canada's procedures for preliminary findings of H5/H7 AI virus in poultry. All birds tested negative on serological and virological tests.

The fact that the H5 virus was not detected in testing at the Winnipeg lab, along with the absence of clinical signs of disease in the birds depopulated in the flock, indicates that only a very small amount of low pathogenicity virus may have been present in the index bird. A finding of incidental contamination in the index bird would not be unexpected given that it spent time out of doors and other birds on the farm were confirmed to have co-mingled with wild migratory birds which commonly carry AI viruses.

Canada's AI response protocols, agreed to by the federal and provincial governments, require that disease control measures be immediately implemented upon preliminary findings of an H5 or H7 virus since these subtypes have the potential to mutate into highly pathogenic forms.

The Winnipeg lab will attempt to grow virus from samples from the index bird in order to characterize the virus. This process will take up to two weeks. Ultimately, it may not be possible to gain further information about the virus. This situation is not unusual as was evidenced in the 2005 survey of AI in wild birds.

Given the initial finding of H5, a quarantine on the index premises will be maintained until test results are complete consistent with Canada's precautionary approach and guidelines of the World Organization for Animal Health (OIE).

Birds from a second premises, that had frequent contacts with the index premises, were also tested as a precautionary measure and all results were negative. A quarantine that had been placed on this second premises has been released.

The Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) will report new information regarding this situation as it becomes available. The CFIA advises bird owners to routinely practice strict biosecurity to protect their birds from AI and other threats. For additional information on avian influenza, visit the CFIA website at www.inspection.gc.ca

Back to Top
Jhetta View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member
Avatar

Joined: March 28 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1272
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jhetta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 4:06pm
Originally posted by Hope4Us Hope4Us wrote:

 Jhetta, Do you mean with our discussion or the reports?
 
The reports of course
Back to Top
PreppyMom View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member


Joined: June 16 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 7
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PreppyMom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 4:16pm
I am so embarrassed for my country Confused I can't believe this. If there's any tests that shouldn't be messed up, it's these tests! Kind of important there folks. Unbelievable...I can grow a Chia Pet in less than 12 days for the love of God!

Back to Top
Carroll View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member
Avatar

Joined: June 17 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 36
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carroll Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 5:18pm
I tend to think that the "problem" with testing the samples for the neuraminadase (sp??), might be the same "problem" that New Jersey had with their sample not too long ago.  Correct me if I'm wrong; I think the problem was that they "lost" their sample, or did someone ruin it before it could be tested? Anyway, there never was a report on the neuraminidase of the NJ virus.
 
This scenario on PEI sounds like the same run around - ! )yes, it is positive for H1  2) all tests were negative for avian influenza virus - why? well maybe something happened to the samples on the way to the second lab  3) Gee, the sample we do have has to be tested by inoculating it into chicken eggs - no results for 12 days.  4)  after two weeks or so, when the "public" with their short memories have forgotten all about the suspect case on PEI, the statement will be:  we are so sorry but something happened to the specimen and we will not be able to determine the neuraminadase.
 
Sound familiar?  or am I getting too cynical?  Personally, I think this is a very possible scenario.  I'd love to know what all of you think.
The truth will out.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 5:33pm
Carroll, This is exactly what I've been thinking. 

Twelve days from now is July 2nd or 3rd depending on when the clock starts.  It will be July 4th weekend in the U.S.  I don't think too many people here will notice.
Back to Top
lukeaah View Drop Down
advanced Member
advanced Member
Avatar

Joined: June 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 22
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lukeaah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 5:40pm
Carroll... I dont think you are being too cynical and your sideways glance at the procedure in question may be warranted. Maybe another scenario could be that they bit of more than they could chew, and, well...it just takes them 12 days to chew it.   
    
Also Carroll, something, as remote as it is, is the fact that.....Lying is done with words and also with silence.

Lukeaah
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 5:45pm

I don't understand...why 12 days?  Has the other tests in other countries taken this long also?  Confused

 4th of July weekend?  Well at least you can add picnic stuff to your preps(i.e. plates/cups/plastic wear),everything will be on sale!Smile
Back to Top
Albert View Drop Down
Admin
Admin


Joined: April 24 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 47746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 5:55pm
Lying is done with words and also with silence.
 
Lukeaah, no offense, but that makes absolutely no sense.   
Back to Top
ispeculate View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member


Joined: May 21 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ispeculate Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 5:58pm
my take on the news out of Canada is that they dont want to sound the alarm bells if its not necessary.  In 12 days they will be able to see if theres any other cases that spring up.  So they just bought some time.   If there are more cases in between now and 12 days from now they can always say oh yeah and by the way....the initial one was H5N1 too...
thebirdfluiscoming.com wherever it goes, you can track it here.
Back to Top
Albert View Drop Down
Admin
Admin


Joined: April 24 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 47746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 6:09pm

Confirmation of H5N1 in Canada could get ugly for the Canadian poultry market.  The U.S. would have to immediately cut off all imports from Canada upon the news, which wouldn't be pleasant.  Since H5N1 would then be confirmed in North America, I'm sure that various sectors of the U.S. markets would see huge sell offs as well.  People need to stay clear of  ANY part of the stock market.  The iceberg is teetering on the edge once again, as they say...

 
 
Back to Top
lukeaah View Drop Down
advanced Member
advanced Member
Avatar

Joined: June 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 22
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lukeaah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 6:32pm
Originally posted by Albert Albert wrote:

Lying is done with words and also with silence.


 

Lukeaah, no offense, but that makes absolutely no sense.    


Albert...I regret that there is not uniformity between us in understanding what I was saying, but as addressing the lying with silence, which is that which I am sure you are referencing too...I believe one of the fundamental reasons that forums like these exist is to ensure and protect against such happening as it so often does when polictial and ecomomic forces combine to spread their blanket of darkness upon the masses..remember vietnam or any most other events that have the potential to impact adversely...non disclosure is a valuable assets for those that need to control and is used very promiscously to suppress for their own self directed motives...a great majority of comments in these forms are underlined with the frustration of trying to get information, accurrate and timely...is China fully forthcoming as an example, or the WHO?...to say their silence is not elavated to that of of lie of words would be an incorrect assessment of truth.
    
Lukeaah
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 6:33pm
The above comments increase the likelihood that the geese died of H5N1 bird flu.  Geese usually are resistant to low pathogenic avian influenza (LPAI).  H5N1 can attack the brain, especially the Qinghai strain since in has PB2 E627K, which is linked to neurotropism. Therefore, geese walking oddly is an indication of H5N1 bird flu infection.  Since one of the geese was positive for H5, it is likely that the H5 is H5N1 and all of the dead birds were infected.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 6:42pm
I'm not surprised that the ducks didn't have symptoms, but I can't figure out why the chickens weren't sick.  Were they still in the incubation period? Were they really sick and we're not getting the whole story?
Back to Top
Jhetta View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member
Avatar

Joined: March 28 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1272
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jhetta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 7:03pm
I am sure Canada has the same technology we do... the fact that there is organ damage is highly suspect in my opinion!  If the report of organ damage in the duckling is correct it could indicate the PB2 627K change; the lysine substitution at position 627 of PB2allows the H5N1 virus to replicate in a variety of organs, producing systemic infection. This makes it a much more serious infection; resulting in high mortality rates .
 
Testing Protocol
 
Early Detection System for Highly Pathogenic H5N1... U.S Interagency Strategic Plan http://www.doi.gov/issues/birdflu_strategicplan.pdf
 
Laboratory Diagnostics
 
The matrix gene RT-PCR assay is capable of detecting all 16 hemagglutinin and nine neuraminidase subtypes. 
 
RRT-PCR can detect inactivated virus and the H5 RT-PCR is known to detect the current Highly pathogenic H5N1 avian influenza viruses. 
 
Positive H5 and H7 RT-PCR tests would indicate the presence of AI viruses with the potential of causing pathology in domestic poultry. 
 
Therefore, all samples positive for H5 and H7 by RT-PCR will be submitted for virus isolation for verification.
 
Samples positive for live virus in virus isolation and positive for H5 or H7 by RT-PCR will be submitted to the USDA APHIS National Veterinary Services Laboratory NVSL of confirmation. 
 
The NVSL is capable of performing the intracranial chicken pathogenicity index index ICPI text of the resultant virus to determine directly the pathogenicity of the virus in chickens.  Identification of the highly pathogenic H5 or H7 virus is a reportable disease and immediate notification to the agency submitting the sample, the state veterinarian, the area veterinarian in charge AVIC, the state public health official and the CDC? USDA Select Agent program. Samples will be immediately secured as required by the Select Agent Programs.
 
All positive H5 and H7 samples will also be sent the the USDA Agriculture Research Service Southeaster Poultry Research Laboratory in Athens GA, for complete molecular sequencing. This will provide for complete typing of the virus and allow for phylogenetic analysis.
 
Real-time reporting and the infrastructure to support such reporting is a serious constraint on any surveillance system. The ability to integrate, analyze, and responsibly disseminate these data is critical.
 
Back to Top
Carroll View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member
Avatar

Joined: June 17 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 36
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carroll Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by lukeaah lukeaah wrote:

  
    
Also Carroll, something, as remote as it is, is the fact that.....Lying is done with words and also with silence.

   Lukeaah, I understand exactly what you are saying.  When everyone wants to know if that little gosling was infected with H5N1, and the agency responsible does not reveal that information, when they obviously know the truth, their silence is lying.  (If they knew that the virus was not N1, it would be all over the news right now.)  I do  not believe for a  minute that either NJ, nor PEI officials, messed up on such an amazingly vital test.  NO WAY! So they are definitely lying to everyone for economic reasons, and keeping us from preparing when and as we should.  IMHO
The truth will out.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 7:27pm
"I am so embarrassed for my country Confused I can't believe this. If there's any tests that shouldn't be messed up, it's these tests! Kind of important there folks. Unbelievable...I can grow a Chia Pet in less than 12 days for the love of God! "

Don't be. This (if what we are all thinking is true) is a worldwide problem of officials making the truth seem to blur between the lines.
 
Originally posted by Albert

Lying is done with words
and also with silence.
 

Lukeaah, no offense, but that makes absolutely no sense.   
 
LOL! Ok. It's like a man asking me if his hairpiece looks natural, and, stumbling on what to say, I reply "Ahem! Excuse me. Oh, boy. Look at the time! Sorry gotta pick up the kids. Talk to ya later!" Smile
 
 
Back to Top
Albert View Drop Down
Admin
Admin


Joined: April 24 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 47746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 7:50pm

Good carroll,  then you can translate Lukeaah for me.  I noticed that both of you joined the forum within 15 minutes of each other on the 17th, and you guys are already going to town, with contributing ... 

Welcome to the board. 
 
 
Back to Top
lukeaah View Drop Down
advanced Member
advanced Member
Avatar

Joined: June 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 22
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lukeaah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 8:16pm
Albert, thank you for the welcome. It is with a sense of gratification that I accept those words. I again regret that my speech and or thought process seems contrary to you, or anyone else. That is not my purpose. As was stated somewhere by someone at sometime.... We don't accomplish anything in this world alone ... and whatever happens is the result of the whole tapestry of one's life and all the weavings of individual threads from one to another that creates something. Let us endeavor together to accomplish such as this.

Lukeaah
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 8:20pm
This whole thing is waaaay beyond me.......I'm still trying to figure out the chia hairpiece............
 
This is getting like MASH humor......you have to laugh to keep from really thinking about the possibilities.
 
 
Back to Top
lukeaah View Drop Down
advanced Member
advanced Member
Avatar

Joined: June 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 22
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lukeaah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 8:26pm
[QUOTE=The Penguin] This whole thing is waaaay beyond me.......I'm still trying to figure out the chia hairpiece............

lol..lol....lol....Now that was funny...lol

There is nothing like adding value with an addition of perspective...

way to go Penquin...its like when two people argue principles...both are right....HUH?
Lukeaah
Back to Top
gypsybeach1 View Drop Down
V.I.P. Member
V.I.P. Member
Avatar

Joined: February 03 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 57
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gypsybeach1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 8:35pm
I fully expected that we would get 2 or 3 "false alarms" before confirming bf in North America. Whether this is due to incompetence, cosmic planning, or some insideous conspiracy, i don't know. And i really don't think that is the point. I think the point is actually that this brings another step closer to finding bf on the continent. I speculate, and it really is only a guess, that after another 1 or 2 more "false alarms" bird flu will be confirmed in North America. I figure in 1 or 2 months. And for the record, I do believe that the canadian birds died of H5N1. Simply because it was H5 confirmed and announced (they wouldn't do that unless they were absolutely sure) and low path rarely kills birds and they exhibited the common h5n1 trait of "walking funny". The additional testng, i feel, is meerly a way to delay the inevitable.

tammy
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2006 at 8:37pm
Glad you got a chuckle..........hope I haven't set a standard to maintain.
 
'Tis true........few things in life are     black     or      white      it's the grey scale that makes it all interesting.
 
 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2006 at 4:37am
Commentary
 

H5 Test Failure in Winnipeg Raises Pandemic Concerns

Recombinomics Commentary

June 21, 2006

The fact that the H5 virus was not detected in testing at the Winnipeg lab, along with the absence of clinical signs of disease in the birds depopulated in the flock, indicates that only a very small amount of low pathogenicity virus may have been present in the index bird. A finding of incidental contamination in the index bird would not be unexpected given that it spent time out of doors and other birds on the farm were confirmed to have co-mingled with wild migratory birds which commonly carry AI viruses.


The above
comments from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency provide additional evidence that the dead geese on Prince Edward Island (PEI) were killed by the Qinghai strain of H5N1.  Since H5 was detected in the only dead bird tested, the chance that the infection was incidental is low. 

The four dead birds had classical H5N1 symptoms.  The H5 was detected in a free range
backyard goose, which is more likely to interact with wild migratory birds, as indicated above.  The four geese were said to be "walking oddly" on Sunday, June 4, another classical symptom of H5N1 infection.  All four birds were found dead the next morning.  Rapid death is another classical sign of H5N1 infection.  The autopsied dead goose also had organ damage, which was also consistent with H5N1 infection.

The only aspect of the goose that was not consistent with the Qingahi strain of H5N1 was the delay in sending the sample to Winnipeg for sequencing and sero-typing.  Since the announcement on Friday, June 16 indicated that H5 had been confirmed, the sample must have been positive at least twice prior to shipment.  The long delay between death on June 5 and announcement of the H5 result on June 16 raises concerns over the handling of the sample, including sample degradation.

Since the four dead birds had a number of symptoms consistent with Qinghai H5N1 infection, it is unclear why only one of the dead birds was tested.  Determining the sequence of the HA cleavage site is routine, so it is unclear why that test was not be done locally on PEI.  The Qinghai strain of H5N1 is quite distinctive, so a small amount of sequence data across any of the eight gene segments would have provided conclusive data on the relationship between the H5 in the dead goose, and the Qinghai stain of H5N1.

The failure to find spread of the H5 provided little data on the relationship to the Qinghai strain.  Since symptoms were observed Sunday and the geese were dead Monday morning, the interactions with other birds whie the infected geese were contagious may have been limited.  Since all four birds developed symptoms and died at the same time, a common source was likely.  However, if the common source was wild birds, they may have flown away and limited exposure of the other birds on the farm.

The failure of Winnipeg to detect the H5, which had been confirmed on PEI, is cause for concern.  The testing of only one goose and delay in testing and/or shipping of samples on PEI indicates pandemic H5N1 bird flu testing in Canada is inadequate.


Media Sources

Phylogentic Tree
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2006 at 5:42am
Canada finds no high-risk bird flu in suspect flock
Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:24am ET
 
By David Ljunggren and Marcy Nicholson

OTTAWA/WINNIPEG (Reuters) - A backyard flock of geese, ducks and chickens in Eastern Canada was not infected with the highly pathogenic H5N1 bird flu strain, officials said on Tuesday, dismissing fears that the strain might have arrived in North America for the first time.

The fears had been aroused after a gosling in the small flock in Prince Edward Island died, and a lab in Eastern Canada examined it and found evidence of H5 avian flu.

But the officials said on Tuesday that Canada's national laboratory in Winnipeg, Manitoba, had not been able to reproduce the virus found by the Eastern lab.

The officials told a conference call announcing their test results that there was no risk to people, to other animals, or to the environment.

"It may have been H5N1 but it wouldn't have been the H5N1 that we have concerns about, in other words the Asian strain," said Dr. Jim Clark, veterinarian for the Canadian Food Inspection Agency.

The highly pathogenic H5N1 avian flu virus only occasionally infects people, but when it does, the fatality rate is high. It has killed 130 people in nine countries, and is also marked by a high mortality rate in birds.

Clark said the highly pathogenic virus has a relatively long life span, and would have survived the journey to the Winnipeg lab.

He said the bird probably had a low pathogen virus, but its cause of death remains a "matter of conjecture".

The bird flu scare started last Friday after officials said the gosling had tested positive for H5 avian flu, and they were carrying out further tests to determine what strain of the disease it had.

The bird was part of a noncommercial flock of 35 to 40 chickens, geese and ducks in Prince Edward Island, a province with only seven commercial chicken farms, none of them within a 10 km (6 mile) radius of the affected farm.

Not all H5 viruses are highly pathogenic and Canada has had low pathogenic bird flu outbreaks in the past.

The low pathogenic H5N2 strain was discovered in British Columbia in November 2005. The birds did not show signs of illness, but 60,000 ducks and geese were culled.

There was a highly pathogenic case of H5N9 bird flu in 1966 and a case of high pathogenic H7N3 in 2004.

The flock where the dead Prince Edward Island gosling was found was culled and a neighboring backyard flock was quarantined briefly. Clark said results from tests on the birds on this farm were also negative, and the CFIA will lift the quarantine.

"We can reasonably say, based on the information we have available, it's unlikely that there was an avian influenza virus that killed these goslings," Clark said.

The original backyard farm will remain under quarantine until testing is finished.

Back to Top
KOMET163 View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: January 15 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 278
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KOMET163 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2006 at 5:53am
May I suggest  a change has taken place in the way bird flu spreads.  Could it be that low level  H5N1 has mutated to another form. In my studies of this disease hisxtory, each region has developed a specialized mutation to allow for survival.  This virus is simply trying to find a way to survive and mutate. THere may be hundreds of mutations going on here. Lets see if I can use an example,  Lets say that a safecracker is trying to figure out a safe combination. this safe cracker has only one chance at getting the right combination or he must die. now imagine billions of safecrakers working on this one safe, each safecracker has one chance to break the  safe or die after failure.  So the individual viruses have only one chance each, but by sheer numbers they eventually will win   So what will we do ? We will get sick and some will die. In that death, however lies the hope for a vaccine.  
 
Komet 163
Back to Top
farfoodle View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member
Avatar

Joined: May 28 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farfoodle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2006 at 7:50am
I like your example.  One of the problems I am seeing worldwide is that the testers are either incompetent, untrained, or under an economic and political hand. Once we clean these three problems up then we can have transparency and those who research can have the virus and make the vaccines.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2006 at 8:28am

Commentary
 

H5 Test Failure in Winnipeg Raises Surveillance Concerns

Recombinomics Commentary

June 21, 2006

The Winnipeg lab will attempt to grow virus from samples from the index bird in order to characterize the virus. This process will take up to two weeks. Ultimately, it may not be possible to gain further information about the virus. This situation is not unusual as was evidenced in the 2005 survey of AI in wild birds.

The above
comments from the Canada Food Service Program compare the testing of samples collected in August 1005 from healthy young wild birds to the testing of samples from a dead free range goose collected on Prince Edward Island on June 5, 2006.

The
results from the August collections are at the Canadian Wildlife Health Center.  The data indicated bird flu was frequently detected in the wild birds and almost 20% of the samples were positive for H5.  Thus, the testing showed that samples properly collected and stored for several months could still yield positive PCR data as well as isolated virus.

The detection frequency was among the highest in countries that have increase surveillance of wild birds and screening for H5N1.  Only one country, Russia, has been able to detect H5N1 in live birds.  Collections of healthy birds shot by hunters have tested positive for the Qinghai strain of H5N1.  In Europe many countries have detected H5N1 in wild birds, but the positive samples are from birds that have died.  Initial positives were in mute swans near the Volga Delta or Danube Delta.  The swans are easily noticed and deaths of swans were observed by local residents prior to testing.  Hundreds of dead swans have tested positive fro H5N1 and virus has been frequently isolated.  Several European countries have also found H5N1 in dead or dying birds on farms, but these tests were in countries that had already found H5N1 in wild birds.

Other countries, however, initially found H5N1 in birds on farms.  Most of these countries had poor surveillance programs.  Many found no bird flu in wild birds, indicating the collection testing process was flawed because low pathogenic avian influenza is common in wild birds and the low path virus should have been detected if samples were properly collected and tested.

In some countries, like
India and Indonesia, a small number of samples are collected, which decreases the likelihood of positives.  When the first human cases in Indonesia were identifies in July of 2005, animal samples were collected in neighboring communities.  However, the number of samples collected was small, indicating the effort was not serious.  The number of human cases has steadily increased and surveillance issues in Indonesia are still of concern.

In India, the failure to find H5N1 in wild birds is also suspect.  Many instances of unexplained wild bird deaths have been investigated, but the number of samples tested are minimal.  Until this year, India denied H5n1 in poultry or people, yet serum samples collected in 2002 from poultry workers were positive fro H5N1.  Moreover, the Qinghai strain of H5N1 was identified in bar headed geese at Qinghai Lake in 2005.  These birds winter I Indian so H5n1 in bar-headed geese in India is likely.  This year H5N1 infections in bar headed geese in Qinghai province was found again, yet India still maintains that H5N1 is not in wild birds.  H5N1 has now been acknowledged in domestic poultry, but media reports indicate the sequences in the domestic poultry match wild bird isolates in Qinghai and Xinjiang provinces in China.

Countries in Africa had also had difficulties in detecting H5N1 in wild birds.  Initial detection has almost exclusively been on farms.  This limitation is almost certainly linked to a poor surveillance system.  Detection on farms is easier because the dead or dying birds are rich sources of H5N1and the deaths usually involve multiple birds.

Thus, the failure of Winnipeg to characterize H5 from a dead goose on a farm on Prince Edward Island is cause for concern.  The failure reflects a poor decision to collect samples from a single dead bird followed by delays in shipment to Winnipeg.  These delays almost certainly contributed to sample degradation and failure to detect the confirmed H5 in the index goose. The detection failure suggests that culturing will also be unsuccessful.  In may instances PCR positive samples fail to generate isolated virus and the frequency of viral isolation from negative samples is low.

The Winnipeg failure raises surveillance issues.  The proper collection, packaging, and/or shipment procedures appear to be lacking, generating false negatives which are cause for concern.


Media Sources

Phylogentic Tree
 
Back to Top
Jhetta View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member
Avatar

Joined: March 28 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1272
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jhetta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2006 at 9:34am
RE: Dr Nimans report ~ One of the early news reports state that the farmer buried 3 ducklings and then took one duckling in for testing!
 
Re: "The officials told a conference call announcing their test results that there was no risk to people, to other animals, or to the environment.

"It may have been H5N1 but it wouldn't have been the H5N1 that we have concerns about, in other words the Asian strain," said Dr. Jim Clark, veterinarian for the Canadian Food Inspection Agency....

Clark said the highly pathogenic virus has a relatively long life span, and would have survived the journey to the Winnipeg lab.

He said the bird probably had a low pathogen virus, but its cause of death remains a "matter of conjecture". "
 
 
I am growing tired the of conjecture made by the Vets and authorities in  Prince Edward Island; regarding their guesstimates that it is "not dangerous, low path, etc. etc. etc.
 
Basically because of their own faulty testing protocol they have no basis to make any comments regarding the virus.  Everything they spew is an attempt to negate and control damage to the poultry industries.
 
They destroyed any scientific evidence that they could have used to prove the theories they are presenting as facts to the public who depend on these labs and agencies to protect them from health threats.
 
At the very least they are not doing their jobs.  I am angry and sick of the media shoveling this drivel at us.
 
If there is no possibility of High Path Virus... how do they explain that 4 ducks died.... how do they explain the damage to organs.  If they do not have a diagnosis that can be backed up by scientific facts... they can not mislead the public by stating things that are simply not true.
 
I think we should investigate legal recourse should this happen "again" in the US.
 
 
 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2006 at 9:49am

Further tests show no avian flu in Canadian flock

Jun 21, 2006 (CIDRAP News) – Further tests have revealed no sign of H5N1 or any other avian influenza virus in samples from a Prince Edward Island poultry flock where an H5 virus was detected last week, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) announced late yesterday.

Samples from the flock tested negative at Canada's avian flu reference laboratory in Winnipeg, Man. "All birds tested negative on serological and virological tests," the CFIA said.

The CFIA announced Jun 16 that a gosling, one of four dead birds in a backyard flock of about 40, had tested positive for an H5 virus at a laboratory in Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island. The finding prompted authorities to destroy the rest of the flock and raised concern about the threat of the deadly H5N1 virus that has killed poultry in much of Asia.

"The fact that the H5 virus was not detected in testing at the Winnipeg lab, along with the absence of clinical signs of disease in the birds depopulated in the flock, indicates that only a very small amount of low pathogenicity virus may have been present in the index bird," the CFIA said yesterday.

The agency added that "incidental contamination" in the index bird would not be surprising because the bird spent time outdoors and other birds on the farm were known to have mingled with migratory birds, which often carry avian flu viruses.

However, the CFIA didn't suggest what might have caused the bird's death, if it was something other than avian flu.

The Winnipeg lab will try to grow virus from samples from the index bird, a process that will take up to 2 weeks, the CFIA said. "Ultimately it may not be possible to gain further information about the virus. This situation is not unusual as was evidenced in the 2005 survey of AI in wild birds."

In a Canadian Broadcasting Corp. (CBC) News report today, Dr. Jim Clark, manager of the CFIA's avian influenza working group, offered a possible explanation for the failure to find any avian flu virus in the index bird.

He said the initial positive test was a PCR (polymerase chain reaction) test, which detects viral nucleic acid. He suggested that the virus or the nucleic acid in the sample might have deteriorated during shipment to the Winnipeg lab to the point where it was no longer detectable, according to the story.

The CFIA said a quarantine on the affected farm would be maintained until tests are completed.

Birds from an adjoining farm were tested as a precaution, and all the results were negative, the CFIA said. That farm had been quarantined but has now been released, officials said.

Clark said any virus at the affected farm is unlikely to be a threat, according to the CBC story. "Whatever virus is there, we're reasonably certain it is so low in pathogenicity there's difficulty maintaining it and reproducing it," he said.

H5 and H7 viruses in poultry can be either mild or deadly. Because mild strains can evolve into lethal ones, outbreaks of low-pathogenic strains often lead to culling of poultry. In November 2005, about 58,000 poultry were destroyed near Chilliwack, British Columbia, to stop an outbreak of a low-pathogenic H5 virus.

See also:

Jun 20 CFIA news release
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/corpaffr/newcom/2006/20060620e.shtml

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2006 at 1:09pm
http://hisz.rsoe.hu/alertmap/woalert.php?lang=eng   removed the blinkin chickenConfused  Is this a good thing??
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2006 at 1:23pm
How stupid do they think we are?Censored
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2006 at 1:33pm
This is more maddening than Indonesia.  They have no excuse for this.  As if the botched sampling weren't enough, they're trying to get us to believe that maybe only a LITTLE virus was present (does just a LITTLE virus kill birds if it's low path?), or maybe the sample degraded (too late to get other samples), but there WAS enough information to say that it's definitely NOT H5N1, but the other samples (the ones from healthy birds somehow made it to the lab) tested negative for ANY virus (a lie since they already came out with the H5 information), and most likely we'll never know what it was (but we know there's no virus, and if there was it wasn't H5N1),   Absolute double-speak aimed at a bunch of supposedly fearful idiots (us).  It's truly insulting.
Back to Top
Heidi View Drop Down
V.I.P. Member
V.I.P. Member
Avatar

Joined: June 20 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 23
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heidi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2006 at 2:07pm
Hi Everyone, 
 
I've been reading for a couple of months and finally signed on.  I must say I am blowed away by the cover-ups in Indonesia in Canada but I am not surprised. There are very few of us that are paying attention to what is going on. As a result,  the "powers-that-be" are very able to get away with this. You know, pass the popcorn and the budwieser and turn on the football (on your four-foot plasma flatscreen). Bread and Circuses. 
I know only one other person in my life that wants to hear anything about this. And I hang with a lot of educated people. So, I feel you are kindred spirts.
Life is Good!
Back to Top
Fastcard View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member


Joined: February 27 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 216
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fastcard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2006 at 2:12pm
opps 144,

 The reason that you are always reading "cause for concern" is that it is a pleasant way of saying that everything is going to hell in a handbasket ! think about what you are really hearing. Quarantines, culling, multiple hot spots, contained outbreaks that last less than a month before flaring up again.

China is lying about  human cases. In fact  they may have really screwed up with their poultry vaccinations and now we have chickens and ducks with no symptoms carrying H5N1 with out symptoms but more deadly to humans.

India is lying about human cases
Turkey is lying about human cases
Indoniasia  could not even tell if it had and outbreak......

but you can just listen for a warning from WHO which is telling you it will give you a reminder when we are in stage 6 !

A Bible verse that is just perfect...... for the situation.
Back to Top
Cygnet View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member


Joined: May 20 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 114
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cygnet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2006 at 2:34pm
I think folks are seeing a conspiracy in Canada when there probably isn't one. From the standpoint of a poultry breeder, I can tell you everything they've said makes sense, is plausible, and is MORE possible than H5N1. There's nothing here that raises any alarm bells with me.

I'm cynical about how long it will be until H5N1 gets here. However, I don't think, based on the information they've presented, that this is anything other than a goose that had a low-level infection with a low path avian flu (probably very common in free range birds) and which died of something else. Very plausible. I'd love to see someone do a survey of backyard poultry to determine the percentage that have been exposed to low path AI; it's probably a significant percentage.

If the bird had died of high path AI, they would have been able to detect virus and the clinical signs would have been obvious on necropsy. However, infection with low path AI often results in a bird which is a "carrier" even after it recovers and which will always shed a few virii. It's entirely possible and probable the bird died of something else.

Birds DIE. What folks who don't raise them don't realize is that it's NOT uncommon to have a bird or two (or four) suddenly drop dead. You may never know exactly why (even if you submit the birds for necropsy) and there's lots of things that will kill free range fowl including a fairly large number of diseases that are NOT zoonotic. As I've mentioned before, it's the time of year for fowl cholera -- which WOULD kill numbers of the geese and leave the chickens unaffected!

Leva
Back to Top
Heidi View Drop Down
V.I.P. Member
V.I.P. Member
Avatar

Joined: June 20 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 23
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heidi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2006 at 2:53pm
Hi Leva,
 
Actually, Leva, I do know that birds die. I was raised on a 13,000 bird poultry farm. We would have a handful die each week.  But really, it is very suspect that FOUR would drop dead on the same day (in a small flock) after exhibiting behavior indicative of H5N1. 
 
Also, I am a government employee in an environmental agency and I familiar with how "THEY" handle things. "They" being government "higher-ups." 
 
You say if the birds were "high-path" they would have been able to detect it. What makes you think they didn't????  But if they  can contain it, with-out making an official proclamation of H5N1 then they have protected the finacial markets and the poultry markets. And then they go home and sleep at night because they have done something to protect us (in their minds).
 
deb  Smile
Life is Good!
Back to Top
Jhetta View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member
Avatar

Joined: March 28 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1272
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jhetta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2006 at 3:02pm
Leva,
 
I grew up on a farm and we raised free range chickens... we just did not have that many that died.  I also raised parrots... very few died and when they did it was relatively easy to find out why.
 
As a scientist I performed PCR assays to detect various info... if the tests are performed properly they are usually quite accurate.
 
Low Path should be as easy to find as high path if you follow protocol!
 
So based on my experience the scenarios they are presenting just do not add up!
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2006 at 3:10pm

Commentary
 

PCR Insert Contains Key H5 Sequence from Dead PEI Goose

Recombinomics Commentary

June 21, 2006

Using polymerase chain reaction or PCR testing, the scientists searched for tiny bits of genetic material from flu viruses. They spotted enough to declare that they had found an influenza A virus of the H5 subtype.

`They found a little piece that matched the H5, enough of a little piece to say it's H5. However, they can't tell if the virus is alive or not,'' Bosse says.

But there wasn't sufficient material to tell if it was highly pathogenic or a virus of low pathogenicity, or what the neuraminidase _ the N in a flu virus's name _ subtype was.

The above description of testing on Prince Edward Island raises questions about the insert generated in the PCR test as well as the sequence of the insert.  The tiny bits of genetic information described above are primers.  The primers bind to the genetic information of the virus, and then the polymerase reaction fills in the gap between the primers using the virus RNA as a template.  Thus, the insert contains the sequence of the virus and it can be used to identify the viral sequence between the primers.

This insert was specific for H5, so it almost certainly included the HA cleavage site.   The sequence of the HA cleavage site is diagnostic for high pathogenic avian influence (HPAI) or low pathogenic avian influenza (LPAI).  Moreover, the GERRRKKR sequence at the cleavage site would indicate that the H5 was from the H5N1 Qinghai strain.

The Canadian Food Inspection Agency has
maintained that the H5 in the dead goose was an incidental finding and the goose died of unknown causes.  The key test of this hypothesis is the sequence of the HA cleavage site.  If it has multiple basic amino acids, it is HPAI like the Qinghai strain of H5N1.  If the multi-basic amino acids are missing, then it is LPAI bird flu, as suggested.

The isolation of H5 virus is unlikely because the samples at Winnipeg have
degraded and are now PCR negative.  In view of the state of the material in Winnipeg, the sequence of the insert created on Prince Edward Island should be released.  This sequences would answer to key questions, is the H5 from HPAI and is it from the Qinghai strain of H5N1.

Media Sources

Phylogentic Tree
Back to Top
kparcell View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member

Location: Florida

Joined: June 03 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 541
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kparcell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2006 at 6:37am
This Recombinomics Commentary asserts that "almost certainly" the info exists that can tell us whether the H5 was high or low pathogenic: whether it was deadly or of little concern. It points out that the Canadian Food Inspection Agency maintains that the virus was low pathogenic and that the goose died of "unknown causes". So, it's up to Canadian members to pressure the Agency to release the evidence (virus sequence) that will support their diagnosis and so perhaps solve the mystery: Is Canada hiding info to protect commerce? Imvho, the failure to release the evidence is very suspicious behavior and the loss of trust is a greater threat than a little financial pain in a wealthy nation.

Chinada?
Back to Top
Bobcat View Drop Down
V.I.P. Member
V.I.P. Member


Joined: March 01 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 42
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bobcat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2006 at 7:35am
 It's more like "Amerida" than "Chinada"! Ever since we have had a "right wing conservative" government in place,  the standards for reporting news have dropped significantly. This is evidenced by Harper taking the Bush stand on how we now don't fly our flags at half-mast for our fallen soldiers, or how now the Priminister won't accept questions from certain press members because he doesn't have a "heads up" on their questions, etc.
  If censoring news or protecting commerce makes us more like anyone, then it makes us more like our friends down south.
Ready or not, here it comes!
Back to Top
Jhetta View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member
Avatar

Joined: March 28 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 1272
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jhetta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2006 at 1:09pm
The exact same senerio was recently played out in New Jersey. 
 
I do not agree that it is the Bush admin... I think both parties have sold out to big business!  Tyson Chickens is a good place to start looking... they have close ties with both parties.
 
"Back in 1997 Tyson Foods paid out $6 million to settle charges of bribery involving Clinton's Agriculture Secretary, Mike Espy.
 
The two Tyson executives jailed in the case were later conveniently pardoned by Pres. Clinton
 
Betting on each side of the coin, Tyson remains an influential corporate bankroller of political aspirations by both the Clinton and Bush families."
 
"Since October, IBP has entertained several suitors, but yesterday the company settled on Tyson, the Arkansas-based chicken giant run by Don Tyson, a political patron of Bill Clinton's.

Tyson admitted several years ago to paying illegal "gratuities" to the former agriculture secretary Mike Espy. But that scandal didn't deep-fry Tyson's ambitions and in 2001, as the company aims to become the biggest meat producer in the country. Chris Hurt, an agricultural economist at Purdue University, says grocery stores are hoping Tyson will do for red meat what it's already done for chicken..."
 
THINGS WORTH KNOWING ABOUT HILLARY CLINTON BEFORE 2008
http://prorev.com/hillary.htm
 
"WHY TOM DELAY AND HILLARY CLINTON MAY REMAIN AT LARGE

THE FACT THAT JACK ABRAMOFF is a crook only takes you so far, thanks to the way federal law reads. To understand why, it is useful to go back to the case of Clinton's agriculture secretary Michael Espy.

In his investigation of the Ag Department scandal, independent prosecutor Dan Smaltz brought 15 criminal or civil prosecutions against 14 persons, seven companies and one law firm. He obtained 15 convictions and collected over $11 million in fines and civil penalties. The largest corporate offender, Tyson Foods, paid the government $6 million in settlement of its case.

Because of the acquittal of former Ag Secretary Michael Espy, however, one would never guess that Smaltz had done anything right. In fact, the Washington elite, led by the major media, leaped on the acquittal as evidence of the gross failure of the independent prosecutor statute.

But the primary reason Espy was let off was not because he hadn't received illegal gratuities -- others were convicted of giving them to him -- but because a US Court of Appeals ruled that the applicable law required that Espy "knowingly and willfully" acted to break the law. As the Washington Times put it, "Intent by the companies who gave him the gifts did not matter in the decision." Further Espy claimed that he fell under another exception -- that all the gratuities had come from friends. Thus it was okay for federal officials to accept bribes as long as no one could prove they did anything specific in return and further that if the bribers and bribee were buddies, the latter was off the hook.

Such protection, however, did not extend to the briber. For example, an official of Tyson Foods was convicted of "giving in excess of $8,500 of illegal gifts" Espy under the Meat Inspection Act of 1906, back when they still knew what a bribe was. Smaltz described the law this way: "The Meat Inspection Act forbids individuals dealing with USDA employees involved in meat inspection from giving any thing of value to them with the intent to influence official actions." Nothing about having to provide a quid pro quo.

Now the laws that made the Democrats so happy in the Espy case may come back to haunt them. Carl Hulse of the NY Times explained it last November:

||| The prosecutors say that among the criminal activities of Michael Scanlon, a former House leadership aide who pleaded guilty on Monday to bribery conspiracy, were efforts to influence a lawmaker identified in court papers only as Representative No. 1 with gifts that included $4,000 to his campaign account and $10,000 to a Republican Party fund on his behalf.

Lawyers and others who follow such issues say the case against Mr. Scanlon amounted to a shift by the Justice Department, which, they say, has generally steered clear of trying to build corruption cases around political donations because the charges can be hard to prove. . .

Court documents filed by prosecutors lay out an extensive conspiracy in which Mr. Scanlon and Mr. Abramoff, identified in the documents only as Lobbyist A, sought to defraud clients -- mainly Indian tribes with gambling interests -- and win legislative help from lawmakers in exchange for campaign donations, trips, dinners, greens fees and jobs. . . .

Federal law requires that to prove bribery, the government must establish that a ''thing of value'' was provided in a direct effort to obtain a specific official act -- the essential quid pro quo. A more vague expectation that something like a contribution might influence a public official has been deemed insufficient. . . |||

Thus, one of the big obstacle to a full and fair denouement of the Abramoff matter lies not in current politics but in old, bad law that virtually requires a copy of the receipt before a bribe is worth prosecuting.

This is just one of the extraordinary anomalies of our election laws. Take for example Hillary Clinton's 2000 Hollywood fundraising scandal, as badly underreported in the press as its proceeds were in her FEC reports. Here is the latest development:

||| AP - A campaign fundraising group for Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton has agreed to a $35,000 fine for underreporting hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on a Hollywood fundraiser in 2000. The organization, New York Senate 2000, agreed to a federal finding that it failed to report $721,895 spent on the fundraiser to boost the former first lady's campaign for the Senate, according to paperwork provided by Peter F. Paul, who helped finance the star-studded gala that drew Cher, Diana Ross, Brad Pitt and Jennifer Aniston. |||

Abramoff is accused, among other things, of is using campaign contributions in various ways as a form of bribery. What Clinton's campaign did was not report contributions at all, a lesser, but still pretty dramatic offense.

For example, in the late 1990s, a federal judge fined Miami businessman, Democratic fundraiser, and Clinton buddy Howard Glicken $80,000 for illegally soliciting $20,000 in foreign contributions. The judge also gave Glicken 18 months probation and 500 hours of community service. In other words, Glicken had to pay not only in community service but four times the amount illegally raised. In Hillary Clinton's case, the settlement amounted to less than 5% of the funny money.

And so the game goes on. . .

And, as in Las Vegas, don't expect to beat the house."


"HOW TO MAKIE MONEY IN CATTLE FUTURES

TWO MONTHS after commencing the Whitewater scam, Hillary Clinton invests $1,000 in cattle futures. Within a few days she has a $5,000 profit. Before bailing out she earns nearly $100,000 on her investment. Many years later, several economists will calculate that the chances of earning such returns legally were one in 250 million.

PROGRESSIVE REVIEW, 2000 - An example of Washington's culture of impunity can be found in a column by the Washington Post's Richard Cohen in which he justifies Hillary Clinton's cattle futures scam by equating it to some of the sweetheart deals into which George the Lesser has so easily fallen. Cohen suggests that the futures deal was nothing more than a businessman doing HRC a favor and writes, "I have to wonder why Hilary Clinton's preferential treatment is such a scandal and George W's is not." He then proceeds to ask a series of questions suggesting that Mrs. Clinton is a victim because of extraneous factors ending, naturally, with imputations of class and gender bias. Let us ignore the Harold Ickesian spin to the piece so suggestive of its provenance and assume more kindly that Cohen once again just doesn't know what he's talking about. That still leaves a lot of Washington Post readers terribly ill-served.

-- Hillary Clinton's cattle deal was not just a political favor from Tyson Food, the same firm that would later pay a $6 million penalty for bribing an official of the Department of Agriculture..... Meanwhile, the eight largest packers, who at the time were slaughtering 44% of the nation's beef, held over one-half of the futures contracts and made twice as much money in the futures market as they did in trading cattle . . . In all, between February, 1978 and December, 1980, some 29 "secret signals" were given although Smith's Committee staff made no estimates on the profits earned after April, 1979 . . . There are estimates that 75% to 95% of individual investors lose money in commodity futures markets."

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2006 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by ops144 ops144 wrote:

but why is everything "cause for concern"
 
ive not read one bit of good info from this good doctor?


I would comment that we need in all incidents to consider a broad spectrum of sources before we make any preliminary conclusions. There is an interesting term I have heard Ops, which I think is fairly significant in posts as wells as sites - that is spin.  I assume spin meaning how information fits into a particular person's over all viewpoint.

It is wise to consider both ends of the spectrum. Example being a famous archeologist who had a particular formula on the pyramids in Egypt. It seemed to fit perfectly except for this one corner of several stone blocks on one face of the pyramid. They found him at midnight, by kerosene lamp, chipping away at the stone blocks with a pick axe, to make the blocks the right size to make his formula correct.

There are numerous physicians here, and some of the most qualified are the most conservative. If there are not clear negative results on Avian tests, then you begin to get nebulous explanations, and at the same time, this must be given a little credibility. Things are not always as bad as they look and often there are non-sensationalist explanations which may account for some "outbreaks."

There are numerous reports and data on Candian birds with less virulent Avian. As yet, (and time may prove otherwise) we do not have a confirmed instance of virulent Avian here in Canada.

Low path Avian can take out birds and people. Low path Avian is endogenous in some populations. Low path Avian could mutate to a more virulent form and cause a worldwide Pandemic. Could. Hasn't yet. But could.

I appreciate the "skeptics" here who do not fuel the fire and are not afraid to speak up and state what is obvious; insufficient data.

However, in closing, I will repeat, America's top agency doctors and disease control organizations are not alarmists. In fact, they are quite the opposite. You can rely on the fact, that if they are going to say "not if but when" this is  saying - we are due for an Avian epidemic. You should consider, however conservative, the huge amount of real data and sometimes sensitive information behind this statement and it is serious.

Dozens of times I have had to step back from some of these reports and say - okay - there is not enough data here to confirm this and it would be pure speculation to go out on the limb and assume there is some sort of coverup. We need to wait for more information.

Let's keep on eye on the test results. Let's really keep on eye for human H5N1 cases in Canada. And beyond that, when we have human transmisssion in those cases, it's time to put a human flag in Canada.


Back to Top
kparcell View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member

Location: Florida

Joined: June 03 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 541
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kparcell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2006 at 4:07pm
Whether or not people are just using this thread for the lowest kind of political hate speech or are deliberately changing the subject, well, it's hard to tell, but I will continue to bring this issue back on topic and to the top of the list.

This Recombinomics Commentary asserts that "almost certainly" the info exists that can tell us whether the H5 was high or low pathogenic: whether it was deadly or of little concern. After all, how else can the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) say that the H5 is not N1? Or did they lose the info and are now covering up their incompetance with a simple fib? These are questions and not accusations.

So, it's up to Canadian members of this forum to pressure the CFIA (by writing to newspapers, calling politicians, etc) to release the evidence (virus sequence) and solve the mystery: Is CFIA hiding info, yes or no?

Imvho, the failure to release the evidence should properly be viewed as very suspicious, and the loss of trust from failure to provide the evidence is a greater threat than a little financial pain in a wealthy nation. Moreover, the failure of journalists to follow up on this multiplies cause for concern.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down