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PANDEMIC ALERT LEVEL
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Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk

CDC: H2H is a Fact:

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Terri View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Terri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2006 at 8:04am
Originally posted by Thomas Angel Thomas Angel wrote:

http://www.who.int/csr/disease/avian_influenza/updates/en/index.html
The Who is putting up updates(for what they're worth) on a much more frequent basis here recently.  If you hit this link and start comparing the dates you'll see what I mean.  This is an indication that things are getting worse, the situation is deteriorating to a point where if they don't post something every day or two (regardless of the fact that we're three to four days ahead of them on information here in this forum) that they will look incompetent or like they are hiding something.
 
I almost would believe that the WHO is looking here for information.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Terri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2006 at 8:14am
Oops- I goofed! In reference to the WHO site I quoted above, beginning on page 58 of this report they provide tables with headings of 0.1,  0.2, 0.3,  1.0  each with footnotes. The footnotes describe  0.1 with the same terminology as their  Threat Level 1, 0.2 as their Level 2 and 0.3 as their Level 3.  The 1.0 seems to me to correspond to Level 4. I interpret this to imply that at this point there is not anything else to say. It is out of control. I encourage all to read this report. i was shocked at the candid presentation and analysis WHO has provided. Seems to be NO sugar coating!!!!!!!  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NEJM Info for MD's Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2006 at 8:40am
Excellent reference for MD's who minimize / deny Avian Pandemic Flu concerns, from the New England Journal of Medicine

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/353/131/1374 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Correction nejm arti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2006 at 8:44am
search nejm site for

Avian Influenza A (h5n1) Infection in Humans

It is a free article.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Falcon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2006 at 4:49pm
well theres goes the neighbor hood
I look at the stars and wonder what it would be like to touch them.
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NEJM Info for MD's
Hi and thanks for the post. I cant make the link connect will you please re post it? thank you - kevin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote s Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2006 at 4:55pm
saw the correction in  the post...thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stormriderfla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2006 at 5:06pm

 THank you for posting this!!

WHAT AN OUTSTANDING ARTICLE!!!! Sorry for screaming..... good research which supports what I think to be true evokes an  uncharacteristic reaction. -Kevin

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AnnE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2006 at 7:04am

Possible Human to Human

 

Cambodia's latest bird flu outbreak a 'serious' problem - WHO

        PHNOM PENH (AFX) - The World Health Organization expressed "great concern"
over Cambodia's latest bird flu outbreak after three more suspected cases were
hospitalised following last week's death of a child from H5N1.
    "It's a great concern, it's a serious problem ... we have to take this as
seriously as possible," WHO representative Michael O'Leary told Agence
France-Presse.
    Three people -- one adult and two children --  are being treated for fever
and respiratory problems at a hospital in the capital Phnom Penh, health
officials said.
    The suspected cases come from a village neighboring that of three-year-old
Mon Vuthy, who died Tuesday after falling ill with the H5N1 strain of the virus.
    She was the first bird flu death in Cambodia this year and the fifth since
2003.
    Five other people who had contact with the suspected cases are also being
tested, said Ly Sovann, head of the health ministry's department of infectious
diseases.
    It is unknown how the three might have become infected with the deadly
virus, he said.
    Agriculture ministry officials said tests are being done on poultry in the
area, but no traces of H5N1 have been found so far in any birds, despite the
deaths of hundreds in the area earlier this month.
    This is particularly troubling, O'Leary said, because if the three people
are found to have bird flu it would mean they had some exposure to birds that
"we are not aware of".
    Seven other villagers thought to have caught bird flu after the girl died
tested negative for the virus, Ly Sovann said Saturday.
    "All the seven suspected patients are negative ... all of them are better,"
he said.
    The seven, all from the girl's village, fell ill with fevers around the same
time that the girl died.
    Officials think the toddler became infected after playing with sick chickens
in Phum Prich village in Kompong Speu province, 45 kilometers west of the
capital.
    Cambodia's last outbreak of bird flu in humans occurred in early 2005, while
the virus has been found in ducks in eastern Kompong Cham province twice since
February, triggering the slaughter of hundreds of birds.
    rit/sdm/tha/tr



Whom is behind the world ahead. There are many paths to tread. Through shadow, to the edge of night. Until the stars are all alight. Mist and shadow, cloud and shade. All shall fade, all shall fade.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ella Fitzgerald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2006 at 7:20am
This is disturbing news......
Pandemics Happen!
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It is unknown how the three might have become infected with the deadly
virus, he said.(quote)
 
 
hmmmmmmmmmmmm.....Lamp could be....Ermm..ummmmmm H2H
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Falcon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2006 at 8:21am

I think they're afraid to admit that situation is slowly becoming out of controll

I look at the stars and wonder what it would be like to touch them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maryk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2006 at 9:42am
more than 70 per cent of this year's H5N1 cases (30 out of 42) have died.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2006 at 10:22am
I'm concerned. Too many coincidences.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2006 at 10:37am
Originally posted by SophiaZoe SophiaZoe wrote:

Avianeye... you're sooo lucky!  I have begged and begged for a milk goat and hubby just keeps saying NO.  He almost never says no to me on anything
After Y2K, Hubby takes a back-seat on the possiblities of a flu pandemic. Hmmmm, Milk goat! My hubby declares Brownie-the-Llama as his llama-in-law. Brownie HATES men, he's better than any guard dog. Hubby might give in if I trade the llama for a few goats, good idea. Hmmmm, I was counting on Brownie as a guard if SHTF. I'll keep planning. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 5:57am
    No evidence that bird flu death woman in Shanghai had contact with poultry -- officials

SHANGHAI, China -- No evidence has been found suggesting that a migrant worker who died in Shanghai from bird flu on March 21 had any direct contact with poultry, city authorities told Interfax today.

The Ministry of Health confirmed on March 24 that bird flu caused the death of the 29-year-old woman. Shanghai municipal Department of Health had initially said she developed symptoms of ?gcoughing and fever" and died of unexplained pneumonia.

Director of the information office at Shanghai municipal Department of Health said there was insufficient evidence to prove the woman had direct contact with poultry, and that the cause of her infection remains under investigation.

"No abnormal condition has been found among the people who had close contact with the woman," he added.

The health administration in Shanghai says it has taken appropriate measures according to the city's bird flu response plan and people who have had close contact with the woman have been put under clinical observation in isolation.

The death toll of bird flu human infections in China now stands at 11, and the number to have contracted the infection 15.Dai Ping from the Shanghai Agricultural Commission said there was no bird flu epidemic among poultry in the municipality. (Interfax-China)

http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/business/int/news/20060327p2g00m0bu026000c.html


    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Falcon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 8:43am
ohhhhhh thats no good at all
I look at the stars and wonder what it would be like to touch them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 9:50am
What concerned me.... THEY ADMITTED IT.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 10:44am

This is the reason i have bought four birdflu stocks praying that at least one wil come up with a solution that will cure people,fowls and animals.This is a very serious problem and we need a cure for it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 10:47am
John I am not a savy tech on stocks can you explain a bit about 4 birdflu stocks...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 10:59am
These are the ticker symbols i have bought and all are working on a bird flu cure.NVAX,HEB,SVA a china biotech co. and GNBT.Nvax is the best i think.You need to go to yahoo finance and scroll down to where it gives stock reports on every stock that trades,Click it and it will carry you to a place where you can put the stock symbols in.You have to put a comma after each symbol and then click go and it will pull up all the symbols with the price of stocks and all the info on what they are doing to come up with a cure or a vacanation or spray that will cure after a person has got the bird flu.i bought these four because i belive they have the most potential.Hope this helps!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 11:10am
Muskrat the US Goverment has approved 3.8 billion dollars to fight the bird flu and will soon grant this money to biotech companys who they think have the best chance of a cure.Im not only in these stocks for the money but most of all a cure for mandkind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thomas Angel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by John John wrote:

Muskrat the US Goverment has approved 3.8 billion dollars to fight the bird flu and will soon grant this money to biotech companys who they think have the best chance of a cure.Im not only in these stocks for the money but most of all a cure for mandkind.
They spend more than that every two weeks on the war in Iraq....
I LIKE SCARY RIDES
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2006 at 3:07pm
So i guess the Iraq,s are more important then the citizens of the USA..hummm.would I invest in the stock...and if I am wrong please pm me John I don,t understand....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 6:11pm
i agree with you that it is happening now.   another interesting point is that  i tryed to log onto another site similar to this one.  And it is either down or you figure it out...................but i find it odd that it is not available...is anyone aware of what has happen to that site...it is very informative to the public....i wonder if they think its to informative and have taken the site down??????   replies please
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote araywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 6:22pm
 I think they are upgrading there server/Forum.
NO NEWS IS WHO NEWS
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cisne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 6:29pm

The Wiki may have taken too many simultaneous hits and crashed the server, or they may have picked up a bug that crashed it.  If it doesn't come back up tonight, check Effect Measure, the Reveres' blog tomorrow to see if they say something about it there.

In a hundred years, we will all be bald.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 7:32pm
thanks for the info
phew  i thought something funny was going on
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lauramiii@hotmail.co Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 9:36pm
can anyone tell me about a site that gives a clear hand washing technique
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 9:47pm
A clear hand washing technique.....????  I have seen such, but don't remember where!!
 
I have seen suggestions for children to teach them to make a "glove" with the soap bubbles and sing a child's song ( don't remember that one either) while sudsing up.
 
May I ask if you have a target audience???
 
The main thing is, Palms, fingers, and the tops of the hands as well.  Many who wash, only wash the palms.
 
SZ
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Siameselade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 9:59pm
Up the forearms as well, remove rings, watches,
Siam
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lauramiii@hotmail.co Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 11:36pm
my name is laura and i started writing a script and storyboarding a short video infoproduct to sell at the 7-11 about personal and familial pre-paredness.  I challenge you  all to do the same because we the people are the frontline defence.  when the hospital turns you away because it is closed.Who will you  turn to to ensure the survival of you and  yours?  civil defence will be busy with martial law and instituting enforced curfews , quarantine and burials.  I intend to be sure and i believe there isnt nearly enough of that sort of info out there meant for joe blow from windy city, do any of you?  please lets organize this well and be proud of it later ok
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote laura curtiss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 11:44pm

Actually, there have already been a couple of H2H2H examples, and one involved 1-2 HCWs. One case was about a year ago in Thai Bihn. The index case was a 21 year old who ended up recovering, but holds the record for days in the hospital (something like 85 days). His 14 year old sister subsequently was infected after caring for him. She was the first documented case of Tamiflu resistance. Next the nurse who treated the index case was infected, followed by another nurse with symptoms.
The H2H2H all were all H5N1 confirmed, The second nurse was not. The grandfather also had H5N1 antibodies. This was when the 1000 serum samples were collected. WHO has never released the results, which were reported to have had many positives. There were not enough dead bodies, so the data was simply buried by repeated testing until a lab stepped forward to say they couldn't repeat the positives generated previously. Although WHO said more tests would be run, there never was a report on which cases were positiev multiple times before turning negative.Another H2H2H example was in Turkey. The disease onset dates and relationships between family members were again buried by WHO, but media reports indicated the index case had symtoms initially, saw a doctor who precirbed cough syrup and said the index case was faking his symptoms to get out of school. Subsequently three siblings developed symptoms as did 10 cousins. Two of the cousins were confirmed (as were two siblings of the index case). This was followed by H5N1 in another set of cousins. Both tested positive for H5N1 and one died. In total among the three sets of cousins were all 4 fatalities in Turkey as well as three more confirmed positives. WHO claims the three sets of infections were just an unfortunate coincidence involving three sets of relatives who all had the misfortune of independent infections by chickens.
Henry Niman | Dead

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote laura curtiss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 11:46pm

Actually, there have already been a couple of H2H2H examples, and one involved 1-2 HCWs. One case was about a year ago in Thai Bihn. The index case was a 21 year old who ended up recovering, but holds the record for days in the hospital (something like 85 days). His 14 year old sister subsequently was infected after caring for him. She was the first documented case of Tamiflu resistance. Next the nurse who treated the index case was infected, followed by another nurse with symptoms.
The H2H2H all were all H5N1 confirmed, The second nurse was not. The grandfather also had H5N1 antibodies. This was when the 1000 serum samples were collected. WHO has never released the results, which were reported to have had many positives. There were not enough dead bodies, so the data was simply buried by repeated testing until a lab stepped forward to say they couldn't repeat the positives generated previously. Although WHO said more tests would be run, there never was a report on which cases were positiev multiple times before turning negative.Another H2H2H example was in Turkey. The disease onset dates and relationships between family members were again buried by WHO, but media reports indicated the index case had symtoms initially, saw a doctor who precirbed cough syrup and said the index case was faking his symptoms to get out of school. Subsequently three siblings developed symptoms as did 10 cousins. Two of the cousins were confirmed (as were two siblings of the index case). This was followed by H5N1 in another set of cousins. Both tested positive for H5N1 and one died. In total among the three sets of cousins were all 4 fatalities in Turkey as well as three more confirmed positives. WHO claims the three sets of infections were just an unfortunate coincidence involving three sets of relatives who all had the misfortune of independent infections by chickens.
Henry Niman | Dead

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote laura curtiss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 12:10am
 
public heath officials and polititions **** too
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Bird flu virus survives for days in droppings -WHO 20 Jan 2006 23:55:16 GMT By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent WASHINGTON, Jan 20 (Reuters) - The H5N1 avian influenza virus can survive for more than a month in bird droppings in cold weather and for nearly a week even in hot summer temperatures, the World Health Organization said on Friday. When people become infected with bird flu, they get a high fever and pneumonia very quickly, according to an updated factsheet from the WHO, posted on the Internet at http://www.who.int/csr/disease/avian_influenza/avianinfluenza_factsheetJan2006/en/index.html. The new factsheet incorporates the most recent findings on the avian flu virus, which WHO says is causing by far the worst outbreak among both birds and people ever recorded... ..."For example, the highly pathogenic H5N1 virus can survive in bird feces for at least 35 days at low temperature (4 degrees C or 39 degrees F)," the WHO site reads. "At a much higher temperature (37 degrees C or 98.6 degrees F), H5N1 viruses have been shown to survive, in fecal samples, for six days..." ...H5N1 has different qualities from seasonal flu, the WHO said. LONG INCUBATION PERIOD "The incubation period for H5N1 avian influenza may be longer than that for normal seasonal influenza, which is around 2 to 3 days. Current data for H5N1 infection indicate an incubation period ranging from 2 to 8 days and possibly as long as 17 days," it said... "Initial symptoms include a high fever, usually with a temperature higher than 38 degrees C (100.4 degrees F), and influenza-like symptoms. Diarrhea, vomiting, abdominal pain, chest pain, and bleeding from the nose and gums have also been reported as early symptoms in some patients." And with H5N1 infection, all patients have developed pneumonia, and usually very early on the the illness, the WHO said. "On present evidence, difficulty in breathing develops around five days following the first symptoms. Respiratory distress, a hoarse voice, and a crackling sound when inhaling are commonly seen." There is bloody sputum, it said. "Another common feature is multiorgan dysfunction, notably involving the kidney and heart," WHO said. The WHO recommends using Tamiflu, Roche AG's flu drug known generically as oseltamivir, as soon as possible to treat bird flu. WHO stresses that H5N1 remains mostly a disease of birds, with tens of millions infected in two years. "Also lacking is an explanation for the puzzling concentration of cases in previously healthy children and young adults." (excerpts) http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N20130277.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SusanT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 10:31am
    
I took this excerpt from CIDRAP update dated March 22nd:

Human cases of H5N1 influenza have been reported in Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, Indonesia, China, Turkey, Iraq, Azerbaijan, and Egypt. WHO has officially recognized more than 180 cases (see References: WHO: Cumulative number of confirmed human cases of avian influenza), with a case-fatality rate of approximately 50%. To date, sustained person-to-person transmission has not been recognized, although probable person-to-person spread was identified in Thailand involving transmission from an ill child to her mother and aunt (see References: Ungchusak 2005) and several other familial clusters have been recognized (see References: Olsen 2005).

To read full article: http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/cidrap/content/influenza/panflu/biofacts/panflu.html#_Lessons_from_Past_Pandemics

Also note, the references in these cases are dated 2005!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 11:08am
some how my post was sent to the wrong place.......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 11:15am

Originally posted by laura curtiss laura curtiss wrote:

Actually, there have already been a couple of H2H2H examples, and one involved 1-2 HCWs. One case was about a year ago in Thai Bihn. The index case was a 21 year old who ended up recovering, but holds the record for days in the hospital (something like 85 days). His 14 year old sister subsequently was infected after caring for him. She was the first documented case of Tamiflu resistance.




If I recall correctly, Tai Bihn was still very weak a year after being discharged, but his sister recovered quickly with no ill effects.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 5:06pm
by the way seems to me that preppers are now starting to flood the stores.  Clap  Costco , bjs, and small stores are cleaning their shelfs off of things like water, paper goods, can food. bleach etc......but its really funny Big smile everyone shopping just looks at everyone else funny...like ummm are they prepping too.   or do they look at me thinking they must think im nuts...anyway im happy America has woken up to the fact that the BIG GIANT IS OUT THERE WAITING TO STOMP ON US... and being prepared is the best thing to do.........ClapClapClapGOOD JOB TO ALL THE PEPS IN THIS ROOM ...LOOKS like the word is out....I found a nice wind up flash light that never needs batteries,,,and also I notice that they are coming out with little backpack resioviors that holds water....Odd stuff to be on the shelfs...but I guess the stores are up on the needs of the preppers...good luck everyone stay safe.........................................................Prepping for the big one!!!!!Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote araywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 6:26pm
I started prepping acouple of weeks ago.(I am a sterotypical surfer) When I was in line this guy said preparing for a hurricaine?(wise a$s) I said no H5N1. He said whats that. I said BF. I swear anyone that was within ear shot turned pale. Confused
NO NEWS IS WHO NEWS
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paranoid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 6:40pm
The ******.com site is still unavailable. Did it crash? get censored? Does anyone know?
thanks...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LSU2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 7:58pm
They are moving to a new server.
Tim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote May Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 8:04pm
has this been posted?  Excuse if it has...
 
 
 
This is the first really big spread I have seen from the media in print.
Now the other agency's will follow I imagine.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2006 at 12:52am
There may have been H2H transmission cases, but it does not necessarily mean a pandemic has started.  As in the case of the 1918 flu, it had to go through several transmissions between humans before it mutated into the killer flu.  If a case gets transmitted from one human to another, and that second human dies, that strain dies with them.  They would need to pass it on to another, then another, then another, and so forth, before it could become a pandemic virus.

Also, as in the 1918 flu again, it can mutate into a rather benign form first and sweep the world.  This may already be happening, and no one may know it.

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