| PANDEMIC ALERT LEVEL |
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| Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk |
SECONDARY PNEUMONIA FROM SEVERE FLU |
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seesthelight 
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 Posted: April 08 2006 at 11:45am |
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Don't forget its the septicemia that causes the organ failure and that can be caused by the virus.
"Most cases are in apparently healthy adults and children. About half of them die from what appears to be a viral pneumonia, sometimes with secondary bacterial infections.
The incubation period of Avian Flu in birds is usually 3 to 7 days, depending upon the isolate, the dose of inoculum, the species, and age of the bird. The exact incubation period for bird flu in humans is unclear, though illness seems to develop within one to five days of exposure to the virus. People infected with the most virulent type of bird flu virus - (A) H5N1 - may develop life-threatening complications, particularly viral pneumonia and Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome, the most common cause of bird flu-related deaths [as was the case with the 1918 Spanish Flu].The primary viral infection is rarely the direct cause of mortality. Instead, infected persons die of cardiac disease (usually patients with pre-existing co-morbidities) or succumb to secondary bacterial pneumonia. Around 25% of all mortality during a typical influenza season is due secondary bacterial infections. During pandemic influenza, around 70% of influenza cases are complicated by bacterial co-infections.
Can a bacterial infection occur certainly and mortality is 25% and the above article states 70% is from bacterial complications though I am not going along with the reasoning that this is what kills them..I believe that the virus sets the stage.
Just please do not dismiss the VIRAL pneumonia strain for which there is no vaccine although they say its rare. rare or not it still equals death. Edited by seesthelight - April 08 2006 at 11:49am |
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Posted: April 08 2006 at 5:45pm |
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Here is Dr. Harrington’s most recent slide that shows the Complications of Influenza being: • Primary viral pneumonia • Secondary bacterial pneumonia • Bacterial sinusitis • Myositis • Myocarditis / pericarditis • Guillian-Barre syndrome • Reye’s Syndrome In that order.  I'm a gonner...my doctor said no. How can I survive all that anyway? I'm off to Sam's to buy more Ramen noodles...I may stay inside for 2 yrs.
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seesthelight
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Posted: April 09 2006 at 7:19am |
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Have you asked yourself why they want more antiviral agents like Tamiflu to treat bird flu and why they are not relying on antibiotics or steroids to get a person through the illness? The cytokine storm is the problems and how it is best to treat that is the quandary. It is hotly debated as to when and for how long they should use steroids and in what dosage etc..and whether you even have time to use the antibiotics to fight off the secondary infection is another issue especially when the primary viral infection is replicating at a faster rate than can be reversed. Bacterial infection to me is not the bigger picture here. The best minds in the world have trouble treating this one. Pneumococcal vaccine does not appease "my" mind. If it makes you feel better to have it then good. But then I do not believe Tamiflu is the saving grace here either as it has been purported to do. I am waiting for the bird flu vaccine that may turn out to be like the swine flu vaccine, I am hoping that will not be the case though except production won't be timely. So what is one to do about this, except hope that the pandemic never occurs? That is the 64 billion dollar question that I for one have not satisfied myself with the answer as I do not see alternatives or viable options which have sound medical reasoning behind them yet. IMHO
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plainsman
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Posted: April 09 2006 at 10:34am |
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Hey, if it doesn't do any harm, why not? At least, as another poster has pointed out, you won't have to worry about pneumonia for a while. :-)
I'm 61 and never taken the flu shot before. I plan to get it this fall and the pneumo-23 at the same time. Our doc is pretty cool. I'll tell him, though I'm not 65 yet, the DW WANTS me to. He'll understand. :-)
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seesthelight
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Posted: April 09 2006 at 11:53am |
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Better antivirals and a vaccine are what I am looking for in the way of help for bird flu. Unfortuately we don't have what we need yet to be safe, thus this forum thrives.
I think this supports my reasoning here. See below:
Clinical Course . Limited microbiologic data indicate that this process is a primary viral pneumonia, usually without bacterial suprainfection at the time of hospitalization. Progression to respiratory failure has been associated with diffuse, bilateral, ground-glass infiltrates and manifestations of the acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS). I Other complications have included ventilator-associated pneumonia, pulmonary hemorrhage, pneumothorax, pancytopenia, Reye's syndrome, and sepsis syndrome without documented bacteremia. Mortality ...... Death has occurred an average of 9 or 10 days after the onset of illness (range, 6 to 30),15,16 and most patients have died of progressive respiratory failure. .....Almost all patients develop pneumonia. During the Hong Kong outbreak, all severely ill patients had primary viral pneumonia, which did not respond to antibiotics. Limited data on patients in the current outbreak indicate the presence of a primary viral pneumonia in H5N1, usually without microbiological evidence of bacterial supra-infection at presentation.
Turkish clinicians have also reported pneumonia as a consistent feature in severe cases; as elsewhere, these patients did not respond to treatment with antibiotics.
In patients infected with the H5N1 virus, clinical deterioration is rapid. Another common feature is multiorgan dysfunction. coagulation.
Limited evidence suggests that some antiviral drugs, notably oseltamivir (commercially known as Tamiflu), can reduce the duration of viral replication and improve prospects of survival.... Edited by seesthelight - April 10 2006 at 12:26pm |
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Posted: April 10 2006 at 5:15pm |
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Your best bet to minimise complications is to, minimise your contact with the hospital. Unfortunately these institutions host a variety of bugs that you don't want to come near, especially during a pandemic. Google search... 417,000 for "hospital acquired infections". (0.14 seconds) Edited by Rick - April 10 2006 at 5:16pm |
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oknut
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Posted: April 10 2006 at 5:24pm |
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I received a pamphlet from Life Extensions the other day that recommended ribavirin along with tamiflu.
An old friend credits Life Extension for her husband surviving serious cancer a few years ago. The foundation is comprised of doctors and other professionals who think outside the box. What little research I did on ribavirin indicated that it might be useful for treating viral pneumonia. Prior to receiving the literature, I'd only heard of it in relation to hepatitis C treatment. |
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Posted: April 10 2006 at 6:06pm |
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sounds like a plan to me im getting my shot if the docter will give me it
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tonseck
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Posted: April 11 2006 at 4:19pm |
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I got my PPV shot today. What an ordeal. Went in, there was
an ambulance outside the doctor's office, another ambulance pulling
up. Everyone on staff inside was in a tizzy. Checked in,
found out someone in the waiting room had just collapsed.
Probably the best place to do it.
Waited 45 minutes, finally went up to the window and said "If you give me the syringe and an alcohol swab I could probably do this myself." The receptionist asked what I was in for (again), checked the folder, said I was listed as in for a 1-year physical. I corrected her, and got right in. The nurse said put your arm up on the counter and turn so your wrist is facing up. I asked if the shot was intramuscular (I knew it was) and she said "No we do this sub-dermally." She injected me just under the skin on my fore-arm, raised quite a blister of fluid, and said I would have to come back in two days to have it read. Now I was really confused. She just handed me the paperwork and sent me up to the counter to pay. I looked at the paperwork and saw that she had circled "PPB". I asked at the counter what shot I had just received (TOO LATE!) and was told it was a TB test! I said to them "I came in for a PPV vaccination, not a PPB test. PPV stands for Pneumococcal Polysaccharide Vaccine. You just gave me the wrong shot!" A burst of activity behind the counter, they bustled me back in, gave me the correct injection (intramuscular this time) and told me there would be no charge for the TB test. Isn't that big of them? |
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Don't be afraid to be afraid; it keeps you on your toes.
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oknut
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Posted: April 11 2006 at 4:26pm |
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A free TB test! Guess you have to feel grateful that they didn't give you something else free.
Good thing you were on the ball and checked on it. Guess you don't have to go back in two days. |
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seesthelight
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Posted: April 11 2006 at 4:56pm |
I 'm sorry but this made me laugh...its not a PPB it is a PPD.Mantoux / PPD (Purified Protein Derivative) Skin Test.
The subdermal should have been your first clue . LOL So much for all this information and whatever good it does.lol I am glad you got your PPV. And I guess the plus is you will know whether or not you have been exposed to TB if you check your arm within the 48 to 72 hours. ;-)
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jackson
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Posted: April 11 2006 at 5:06pm |
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I hate getting shots so I would have been very upset if I had gotten the wrong one and then had to get another one!!
I think getting the Pneumococcal vaccine is a good idea---it may not prevent the viral pneumonia caused by the bird flu but it WILL help to prevent a secondary bacterial infection. |
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Posted: April 12 2006 at 8:00pm |
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Agree with jackson and most others above, so fiancee and I both got pneumo 23 yesterday at a local clinic. Think about home care of your partner and the much improved chance of survival. Especially if you have all the other flu 'care' products and info to hand. It would probably mean survival. Our vaccinations were done locally, no questions asked, only $29 (Aus). My take is the vaccine stops the secondary infection b4 it gets started, rather than an antibiotic which starts after infection and has to fight the bacterial load whilst your compromised immune system is trying to step up. Don't wait too long folks, you can't prep much if there's a panic on.
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Posted: April 22 2006 at 4:19pm |
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I am all for getting the pnumonia shot if available, but from everything I have read about this (and 1918 strain) says that it isn't a real pnumonia, it is called ards, stands for acute respiratory distress syndrome. The walls of the blood vessels in the lungs begin to leak and cause a"pnumonia" like state. I haven't read that antibiotics will help. If anyone has heard differently, please let me know. I like to have accurate info.
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Posted: April 22 2006 at 4:49pm |
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QUOTE=jo007athome]I am all for getting the pnumonia shot if available, but from everything I have read about this (and 1918 strain) says that it isn't a real pnumonia, it is called ards, stands for acute respiratory distress syndrome. The walls of the blood vessels in the lungs begin to leak and cause a"pnumonia" like state. I haven't read that antibiotics will help. If anyone has heard differently, please let me know. I like to have accurate info. [/QUOTE]
I have been reading John Barry's book. At first I was sceptical about secondary bacterial pneumonia. I knew the viral pneumonia caused a cytokine storm and "ards". And that "pneumonia" is a general term that just means infection/inflammation of the lung. As does ARDS,approximately. I assumed that back then (1918) they didn't know the difference between bacterial and viral pneumonia.
But Barry's book convinced me that they did, and that they could tell which sort the victims had died of. They didn't know about the BF virus but they WERE able to tell at autopsy which was the new sort of pneumonia and which was the traditional sort. Lots died of the traditional sort. Especially apparently the ones who died later in their illness instead of soon after the onset of symptoms. Beth
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Posted: April 23 2006 at 10:43am |
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I could kick myseld that I didn't get mine last time we were at the VA. Hubby meets several of the criteria, so they demanded that he get his. Will definitely have to work on this!
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Jefiner
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Posted: April 23 2006 at 1:55pm |
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Regarding pneumonia both viral and bacterial and ARDS--There is a great picture in Barry's book of how the flu virus decimates the epithelial cells of the lung, pretty much ending the ability of the alveoli to conduct oxygen exchange. Viral pneumonia is what you get the shot for. Bacterial pneumonia can be community acquired (someone coughs in your face) or it can be the result of apiration or obstruction in the lung, allowing secretions to basically ferment in there (dark, moist and warm). ARDS seems to occur as a function of the cytokine storm--it can be associated with pneumonias and bronchitis, but the last patient I had with ARDS got it as a result of inhaling paint vapors at our local aircraft refurbishing facility.
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Jefiner
Either you had no purpose Or the purpose is beyond the end you figured And is altered in fulfilment. T. S. Eliot |
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Gwyphn
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Posted: April 23 2006 at 3:56pm |
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I got my PPV and was exposed to something that led to pneumonia at the same time. I'm now just getting over pneumonia. Geesh, I hate going to the doctor's and the hospital. I always seem to leave sicker than when I arrived.
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For generations we have lived not wisely but too well. Now we must pay.
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P_S_N
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Posted: April 23 2006 at 10:46pm |
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The information on this thread has been so helpful. I told my husband the next time he goes to the doctor he needs to get a pneumonia shot. He has congestive heart failure and nearly died from the flu when he was 27. I do genealogy and just got a document today via email on his grandmother who died December 5, 1918 during the flu pandemic. Her cause of death is listed as pneumonia. Her age 29 years, 10 months, 28 days. She left behind two daughters age 2 and under and her husband. For those of you who are younger and want to get the pneumonia vaccine but your doctors are putting you off feel free to share those kinds of facts with them. I would post a picture of the document (a composite of two of the four images sent to me (it was a long document), but I don't know how to post it here.
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"When the last individual of a race of living things breathes no more, another heaven and another earth must pass before such a one can be again."
William Beebe, 1906 |
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Johnray1
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Posted: April 24 2006 at 8:48pm |
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I have posted this onec before but I think that I need to again. The Pneumonia Vaccine that you get protects you from the most common and deadly 23 types of pneumonia. There are well over 300 bugs that can cause pneumonia. The Pneumonia Vaccine is called Pneumo Vac 23 for this reason. You can still get pneumonia but it should not kill you. Johnray1
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Posted: April 27 2006 at 6:25am |
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Thanks Beth, I appriciate the update on information. I haven't read Barrys book, but that is now on my list of things to do (in between prepping, LOL) I am so glad to have found this forum, everyone is knowledgeable and helpful (with only an occasional exception) and no one is made to feel stupid for not knowing something.Thanks again. Jo
Ok this was on the thread, I apparently missed it, so what is correct? Edited by jo007athome - April 27 2006 at 9:23am |
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Bird Free
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Posted: April 27 2006 at 6:30am |
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Anon54, what kind of essential oils are you using?
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outsidethecamp
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Posted: May 17 2006 at 8:24pm |
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Oh, Crap...
My 19 yr.. old daughter refuses to have this vaccination as she thinks that it will interfere with her "PRACS" research studies.  Hubbie & I got our shots 2 months ago. God Help Us All... Peggy |
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Posted: May 18 2006 at 9:44am |
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i am new to this site and am very impressed with the information and support everyone seems to give here. question about the pneumonia vaccine. how long is it effective? if my family and i got one last year, am i protected? thanks so much |
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nettie4263
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Posted: May 19 2006 at 10:16am |
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Is this the shot we want??
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Mrs. T
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Posted: May 19 2006 at 1:23pm |
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Yes
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Albert
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 9:07pm |
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Lot of talk about getting the pneumonia vax this year. I thought that we would move one of our old favorite threads over here for a while lol. A lot of people have gotten the vax. It would be nice to start adding to the old list once again.
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Albert
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 9:08pm |
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"Among the few successful medicines doctors used during the Spanish flu were privately made vaccines for bacterial pneumonia. Today we have something called the pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccine. One injection protects against 23 types of pneumococcal bacteria for a lifetime, so you don't have to wait until you're ill or even until there's a pandemic to be inoculated. Bacteria never develop resistance against it, as they do with antibiotics, and it will provide protection against any strain of flu, be it human or avian. A computer model in the Netherlands found that giving this vaccine to just 17 percent of the population prevented 3.5 percent of expected deaths directly and fully a fourth of all hospitalizations. Beds would be scarce during any pandemic and freeing them up would translate into better care for the sick and even more lives saved. " |
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Penham
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Posted: July 11 2006 at 9:34pm |
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All 3 of us got our vaccines several months ago. DH just told his doctor he wanted one because he works with people who have compromised immune systems and they didn't have a problem with it. My doctor didn't even ask me why I wanted it, he just wrote the order and sent me to the nurse. When I too my 10 year old, the pediatrician didn't really want to give it to her, I tried every way about it without saying H5N1, but he wasn't going to give in. Finally I just went with it, went into H5N1, how it was in # of countries (at that time) and several other facts and he then said ok. He didn't give me a hard time or ask anymore questions, just sent up to the nurse. The thing is both DD and I have had pneumonia before and she was even hospitalized for it and they were resisting, until I told him the real reason. Then went with oldest daughter and grandaughter and grandson (same ped) and he did the same thing, until I started talking H5N1 and he remembered me (he was new and this was only the second time seeing him, first time being when I took 10 year old). He then said ok, so they were able to get theirs too. Oldest DD was also able to get one. 20 year old DD was not able to get one, either here or in CA where she lives.
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pheasant
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 4:15am |
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it was mentiond earlyer to "get some antibiotics now as there wont be any later" where can i get some now(legaly) without being sick,i asked my doctor once and he said he wont prescribe them unless i need them.
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The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself......FDR
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P'ColaPrepper
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 7:22am |
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I got my pneumo vaccination a couple of weeks ago at my local county health dept. Just called them up and asked if they had it available, asked if I could get one,and how much it cost. They only asked me how old I was and said it would be $35 and to just come on down. They never asked me why I wanted it or anything else for that matter (am only 39). Felt really great that day for having that out of the way. My arm hurt quite a bit the next day however. Now I just have to get hubby to get down there for his. Think I'll end up having to drive him down there myself though as he's not nearly as pro-active about AI as I am at this time. Oh yeah, what kind of anti-biotic is recommended to have around the house in case of emergency? I'd also be interested in ordering some of that.
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 9:01am |
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how long is it good for?
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Albert
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 9:07am |
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ops, 5 years. Worst case, you probably won't get pneumonia for a long time.
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kittles
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 9:49am |
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Had my pneumo23 vaccination several months back. Had no problems getting one, just called the dr. office and asked receptionist.I'm 49 but have had pneumonia several times. Thinking it was $25. Well, been getting sick last several days, went to doctors office yesterday, ended up having sinusitis and atypical pneumonia (walking pneumonia) I was so out of it I didn't ask if
it was viral or bacterial. Whatever it is, its kicking my butt. I do think the decadron shot and prednisone is helping a bit. Was just thrilled they didn't hospitalize me this time! She gave me Zithromax for antibiotic, hope it helps, seems like another time it didn't help much. They gave me Leviquin before, but I had alot of side effects with it. I've got to get better real fast. Daughter and I closed our business for 10 days for some vacation time, we are supposed to open back up tomorrow! I have been detoxing for several weeks, was starting to feel like there might be hope for me yet. My immune system stinks.......LOL......I am really concerned about the bird flu, I seem to pick up everything, never get a simple cold, etc. Just had a horrible bout a few weeks ago with some gastro flu? or bad mexican food. It was horrendous......I literally thought I was dying....bad stuff going around.
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 10:32am |
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Thanks, Albert.
It's interesting that the Big Horn Sheep are dying of secondary bacterial pneumonia by the thousands and it is believed that a mystery virus is the cause. For more information on that story look under the Mysterious Animal Deaths thread by Joe Neubarth.
After reading that article, it put a new sense of urgency on getting the pneumonia vaccine.
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 10:56am |
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thanks ,
i have two kids with compramised imune systems
they will be getting it also
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Albert
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 11:37am |
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ops, when you get it done, come back to this thread and post a message confirming it, if you would.
This thread is an old favorite of mine. Lets get the list going again.. Every time you get the vax, let's post it on this thread.
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Albert
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 11:38am |
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Thanks Wendy. I will take a look.
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Hotair
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 2:58pm |
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I got mine a couple of months ago. I haven't approached Kaiser about my kids, though. I think that they will give me a hard time. I will just have to go to a clinic and go out of pocket.
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 4:46pm |
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We got the shot for Great Grandmother who is 91 and lives with us. I'm planning to use her as the reason to get the shots for the children ... so they won't bring home the germs to GG. Hopefully at 47 I won't have a problem getting it.
Thanks for this thread.
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Wulfgang
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 7:36pm |
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Everyone;
I think it is wonderful that you all are getting motivated to get the pneumococcal vaccine shot. I got mine approximately 6 months ago, from a walk-in type clinic.
It took me a while to read all 200+ posts, but I believe KillerFlu.net is 100% right on the money with his/her comments and supporting rationale. This is consistent with the opinions of the scientists and doctors whom I associate with while working on a federal agency emergency pandemic planning committee. It should tell you something when I say that the majority of these experts got the pneumococcal shot themselves.
I believe I read a while ago that the state of Alaska is even making preparations to vaccinate all of its residents with the pneumococcal shot - this is part of their emergency preparedness plan. To my knowledge, I think they are the only state thusfar planning to offer these vaccinations to their entire population.
Good going everybody.
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Wulfgang
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 8:25pm |
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(no chicken hearted Anharra has not been brave enough to get the shot, yet)
this is a good point corn...
"another reason pneumonia is allowed to develope in a sick person is because they imobilize (lay flat alot)"
My baby doc told me..showed me how to make sure my kids didn't get
lung infect. cup the hand and firmly but gently pat the front and back on both sides. Never one infection.
My Mom uses a swedish massage vib. that you put your hand through and
run it around the back and chest, it really breaks up the mucus.
It's a small thing, basic, but it works, so remember it.
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TrishaA
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Joined: May 15 2006 Status: Offline Points: 55 |
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Posted: July 12 2006 at 8:49pm |
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My husband and I both got a pneumonia vaccine last week. Now I'm worried though because I didn't know to ask for a particular one. I hope that we received the right one.
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looking for blue skies in a dust storm
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Concerned Dad
Experienced Member
Joined: July 11 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 17 |
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Posted: July 13 2006 at 6:56am |
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I called my children's pediatrician today and he does not give this shot to children over 2 years of age. He recommended I go to our local health clinic if I insist on getting it for my kids.
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tripster
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Joined: June 19 2006 Status: Offline Points: 2 |
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Posted: July 13 2006 at 7:24am |
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Just got mine at the walk-in clinic in Ontario Canada. Took all of 3 minutes. It's free. Covered by OHIP. Called PNEUMO 23. I have the manufactures insert slip if any one wants a scan.
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carpenter wrote: