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Credit crisis: 'The worst is over' |
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 Topic: Credit crisis: 'The worst is over'Posted: December 14 2008 at 11:02pm |
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...they never policed it...
(he mentions Greenspan..people's emotions...,
I agree...I say stocks are cheap and the rich are lovin it)
VIDEO
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Steve Forbes, the publisher of Forbes magazine, is one of the few people
He talked to Matt Frei about how an economic recovery could be underway. |
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Posted: December 15 2008 at 1:05am |
Flora's Mallewagen, Hendrik G. Pot, oils c. 1630. A very famous cartoon was entitled "Flora's Mallewagen." This engraving, dating from 1637, was jam-packed with the faces of people of the day who had parted with fortunes in exchange for tulip bulbs. A 'Ship' Of Fools- Heading Towards The Sea
............................................................................................................................... One very famous cartoon was entitled "Flora's Mallewagen." This engraving, dating from 1637, was jam-packed with the faces of people of the day who had parted with fortunes in exchange for tulip bulbs.
...At first the tulip was a rarity that only the very wealthy could afford. So rare and so beautiful were they that the rich clamored to have them. Tulips became a status symbol -and wealthy Dutch and European aristocrats and newly-wealthy merchant classes had to have them! A buying mania evolved. Tulipa 'Semper Augustus' By 1624 things had progressed to to such a craze that one tulip, the reknowned white and maroon "Rembrandt-type" tulip 'Semper Augustus', could command a price as high as 3,000 guilders per bulb -with only 12 bulbs available for sale! The equivalent of $1,500 U.S. today. Just a short time later, a similar bulb fetched a whopping 4,500 guilders ($2,250 U.S.), plus a horse and carriage. Today's civic tulips beds with thousands of bulbs planted en masse would have astounded tulip growers back then who planted individual bulbs as specimens in the "renaissance style" gardens of the day, with formal parks surrounded by hedges. The most expensive flowers were the Rembrandt-type or bi-colors with distinctive flames or broken stripes of color, each one unique in its patterns. Solid-colored tulips were not fashionable at all.
FYI: Today we know that the original "broken stripe" tulips were infected with a devastating virus, such bulbs are not allowed in cultivation today. Instead genetically-stable flamed "look-a-likes" (hybrids that duplicate the famous bi-color, broken stripe look) are available and continue to be extremely popular. Favorites include red-and-yellow 'Keizerkroon' (introduced in 1750), red-and-white 'Cordell Hull' (1933) and maroon-and-white 'Vlammenspel' (1941).
The Tulip Crash of 1637
The Puritans were quick to oppose the pernicious collecting mania and the craving for foolish speculation of these "florists" or "blommists", as they were known. Nevertheless, the "tulip disease" continued to spread. This craziness reached its zenith in the years 1634 to 1637, in the period known as "The Foolish Tulip Trade", "The Wild Tulip Speculation", or "Tulipomania".
This period is often compared to the modern day Stock Market Craze worldwide of the 1920s - and it is easy to see why. Buying and selling tulips became not just a hobby for the very rich, but an activity for all kinds of craftsmen as well. By the 1620s tulips were being sold by the bulb, but in 1634, people switched over to selling rare varieties by weight. It's not so surprising that people chose the grain (weighing four point eight centigrams) as the unit of measure. This was the same unit of measure used by goldsmiths.
Although the story is not really clear - there appear to have been tulips that were sold for up to 3,000 guilders per bulb. To give an idea of what this sum could buy at the time: two loads of wheat, , four loads of rye, four fat oxen, five swine, 12 sheep, two hogsheads of wine, four barrels of beer, two barrels of butter, a thousand pounds of cheese, one complete bed, one suit of clothes, one silver tankard and a sizeable wagon to haul it all away!
A notarized bill of sale was issued for many of these transactions. It is also certain that some tulips that were traded never even existed. This could happen because people could only supply actual bulbs during the period from July through November, when they were out of the ground. During the rest of the year, except for the flowering period, the plant was below the soil surface. Therefore the Dutch term "windhandel," meaning "wind trading" was an apt term.
Obviously many cartoonists of this period created funny drawings ridiculing those involved in the Wind Trade, which today seems a folly not unlike that depicted in Hans Christian Anderson's "The Emperor's New Clothes."
One very famous cartoon was entitled "Flora's Mallewagen." This engraving, dating from 1637, was jam-packed with the faces of people of the day who had parted with fortunes in exchange for tulip bulbs. There is also an interesting painting by Jan Breughel, an artist who lived from 1601 to 1678, which depicts monkeys engaged in the day-to-day activity of tulip traders. Here too the feasting and tippling habits of the "florists" was denounced, with monkeys shown acting like, well, asses. Another example was an engraving by Pieter Nolpe who depicted the tulip speculation as a giant fool's cap.
Jan Breughel's Tulipmania monkeys
Pieter Nolpe's Tulipmania Fool's Cap In 1637 the tulip trading crashed. People who thought of themselves as extremely rich were reduced to poverty overnight.
In spite of the uproar and the difficulties that accompanied the wild speculation in tulips, the tulip continued to be the most popular garden flower for a very long time. Tulips had become associated with the Netherlands. The lasting Dutch fascination with tulips -and enduring Dutch flower industry -owes at least part of its development to Tulipomania.
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Posted: December 15 2008 at 8:36pm |
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Source...read here to check out/or leave comments-
In economic circles, there has been a lot of buzz about Quantitative Easing of late. Basically, the U.S. Federal Reserve has lowered interest rates to near zero percent and the fear is that these cuts will not have enough effect on the willingness to lend in order to reflate the U.S. economy. Therefore, the Fed has decided to take more draconian measures, one of which is Quantitative Easing, flooding the economy with money. This experiment is not without risks. There is the potential for very high inflation down the line if the Fed is successful. But, does the Fed have a choice? It seems that it is looking at deflation or depression on the one hand or stagflation on the other. Take your choice. But before you take sides, first let me go back a few years in history to describe exactly just what quantitative easing, a policy first really practiced in earnest in Japan, really is. Wikipedia has an excellent definition. Quantitative easing was a tool of monetary policy that the Bank of Japan used to fight deflation in the early 2000s. The BOJ had been maintaining short-term interest rates at close to their minimum attainable zero values since 1999. More recently, the BOJ has also been flooding commercial banks with excess liquidity to promote private lending, leaving commercial banks with large stocks of excess reserves, and therefore little risk of a liquidity shortage. The BOJ accomplished this by buying much more government bonds than would be required to set the interest rate to zero. It also bought asset-backed securities, equities and extended the terms of its commercial paper purchasing operation. In essence, the Bank of Japan found that despite lowering short-term interest rates to zero it could not get its zombie banking sector to lend. Credit, the life blood of our fractional reserve banking system, was just not increasing. Therefore, the Bank of Japan began buying Japanese government bonds (JGBs) with money that it created out of thin air — that is they bought existing assets with money that did not previously exist. Central Banks can do this because they control the electronic printing presses. Now, the likes of Murray Rothbard, an Austrian School economists calls this counterfeiting. However, regardless of how you see this, this is how our monetary system works. But this is also the definition of inflation. See my post, “What is inflation” for a primer on why inflation is not consumer price inflation, but rather an increase in the supply of money. And while the Japanese economy did not get higher consumer price inflation as a result of the massive quantitative easing, this money did create the carry trade as people borrowed in Yen and invested abroad. The Japanese central bank was then very much a factor in creating the global bubble we just experienced. Printing money is effective because it has the effect of putting more high-powered money into circulation. The aim is to increase bank reserves enough so as to increase lending that results from those reserves. And Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke knows this. He is a student of the Great Depression and deflation, a well-regarded economic historian. Bernanke earned the moniker “Helicopter Ben” a few years back as a result of some comments he made in 2002 at the National Economists Club regarding quantitative easing to avoid deflation before he became the Fed Chairman. Here is what he said as quoted on the Federal Reserve’s website: As I have mentioned, some observers have concluded that when the central bank’s policy rate falls to zero–its practical minimum–monetary policy loses its ability to further stimulate aggregate demand and the economy. At a broad conceptual level, and in my view in practice as well, this conclusion is clearly mistaken. Indeed, under a fiat (that is, paper) money system, a government (in practice, the central bank in cooperation with other agencies) should always be able to generate increased nominal spending and inflation, even when the short-term nominal interest rate is at zero. The conclusion that deflation is always reversible under a fiat money system follows from basic economic reasoning. A little parable may prove useful: Today an ounce of gold sells for $300, more or less. Now suppose that a modern alchemist solves his subject’s oldest problem by finding a way to produce unlimited amounts of new gold at essentially no cost. Moreover, his invention is widely publicized and scientifically verified, and he announces his intention to begin massive production of gold within days. What would happen to the price of gold? Presumably, the potentially unlimited supply of cheap gold would cause the market price of gold to plummet. Indeed, if the market for gold is to any degree efficient, the price of gold would collapse immediately after the announcement of the invention, before the alchemist had produced and marketed a single ounce of yellow metal. What has this got to do with monetary policy? Like gold, U.S. dollars have value only to the extent that they are strictly limited in supply. But the U.S. government has a technology, called a printing press (or, today, its electronic equivalent), that allows it to produce as many U.S. dollars as it wishes at essentially no cost. By increasing the number of U.S. dollars in circulation, or even by credibly threatening to do so, the U.S. government can also reduce the value of a dollar in terms of goods and services, which is equivalent to raising the prices in dollars of those goods and services. We conclude that, under a paper-money system, a determined government can always generate higher spending and hence positive inflation.
Of course, the U.S. government is not going to print money and distribute it willy-nilly (although as we will see later, there are practical policies that approximate this behavior).8 Normally, money is injected into the economy through asset purchases by the Federal Reserve. To stimulate aggregate spending when short-term interest rates have reached zero, the Fed must expand the scale of its asset purchases or, possibly, expand the menu of assets that it buys. Alternatively, the Fed could find other ways of injecting money into the system–for example, by making low-interest-rate loans to banks or cooperating with the fiscal authorities. Each method of adding money to the economy has advantages and drawbacks, both technical and economic. One important concern in practice is that calibrating the economic effects of nonstandard means of injecting money may be difficult, given our relative lack of experience with such policies. Thus, as I have stressed already, prevention of deflation remains preferable to having to cure it. If we do fall into deflation, however, we can take comfort that the logic of the printing press example must assert itself, and sufficient injections of money will ultimately always reverse a deflation. Translation: it is always preferable to a central bank to print money or create some reasonable facsimile of printing to prevent deflation before its onset than to try and deal with deflation once it has set in. I strongly suggest you read Bernanke’s remarks in their entirety. The most important statement he made was about the electronic printing press and its effectiveness in combating deflation. If we are to take him at his word, Bernanke will print money — lots of it — to avoid deflation. The key, of course, is high-powered money. Rebecca Wilder said this quite well on a recent post of hers: What is the difference between money and high powered money? Money is a function of two things The monetary base, which equals bank reserves plus currency in circulation This experiment is not working, though. Before the preset day, conventional wisdom was that in Japan in the 1990s and in the U.S. in the 1930s, policymakers waited too long to begin any quantitative easing. Deflation had already set in and QE was pretty much a bust, as a result. However, we are beginning to see that it was not only the delay in policy, but the natural course of deleveraging which caused credit and the money multiplier to contract. I mentioned this in April in my post “Finding a bottom,” which I quote her in its entirety because it is germane to why credit will contract: As the writedowns at global financial institutions near $300 billion in capital lost as a result of the sub-prime crisis, the question as to when we reach a bottom is ever more urgent. Market history tells us that the severity of the bust after an economic upswing is usually related to the size of the original upswing. This mortgage and credit bubble being the mother of all bubbles requires a sustained and robust de-leveraging to set things right. Therefore, the real economy in which we all live and breath should feel some very significant impacts for some time to come. My hope is this process will find a bottom late next year. De-leveraging De-leveraging begins when the speculatively financed investments go bust and writedowns occur. Normally, banks can handle these writedowns without having to de-leverage because they are well-capitalized. However, when banks writeoff unexpectedly large amounts of capital, this reduces their capital base and makes the bank look more leveraged and risky as a financial institution. $300 billion is a large amount. When the financial sector writes off $300 billion in equity capital in the span of one year, some institutions start to look pretty risky. In a fractional reserve banking system (in which only part of deposits are held in reserves), banks risk ruin if depositors lose trust in their stability. Therefore, it is important for institutions to re-capitalize after large writedowns. Re-capitalising can occur in one of three ways: the banks can increase their equity capital through paid-in capital, they can increase their equity base through profits or they can de-leverage. To date, banks have been forced to issue additional equity capital (often from sovereign wealth funds) in order to maintain strong balance sheets. However, the Federal Reserve has done all it can (and more — indeed, too much more) by lowering interest rates to banks in order to increase the spread between money lent and money borrowed, which will increase bank profits. This too will help banks — albeit slowly as the banks can only profit from these spreads over time. Nevertheless, banks will not be able to strengthen their balance sheets quickly enough through those two methods without significant de-leveraging. They will need to sell assets and reduce future credit availability in order to gain the rock solid balance sheets that customers, counter-parties, and consumers will require in a more cautious economic environment. The Feedback Loop At some point, this whole feedback loop will end a we will find a bottom. The hope is that we can do this with a minimum of damage to the real economy, a minimum of personal financial distress and as quickly as possible. When we reach the bottom is anybody’s guess, but expect this de-leveraging process to play out at least for the entirety of 2008 and through well into 2009. Let’s hope that we find a bottom then. When we do find a bottom we should know whether Bernanke has been successful. If he fails, prices fall, the real value of debt rises and depression ensues. If Bernanke succeeds, however, the outcome is less clear. Rebecca Wilder paints a good picture of what is at stake here. Will the Fed’s QE strategy lead to inflation? In the short-term, no. The money multiplier is falling because the economy is in a nasty recession alongside a serious credit crisis. In this environment, the surge of high powered money will not cause prices to rise.Prices normally drop in a recession (deflation) because the demand for money (the ability to purchase goods and services) falls with rising unemployment and declining income (slackening demand for goods and services). But the 2008 recession is accompanied (or partially caused) by a credit crisis that induces banks to hoard the new base as excess reserves; this adds to the deflationary pressures. If deflation were to become embedded into consumer and firm expectations, then the macroeconomy could be facing a severe problem. So for now, and until the economy emerges from its recession, QE will not lead to inflation. But what happens when the economy rebounds? Inflation becomes a serious risk if the Fed does not extract the high powered money. If the Fed gets it wrong, or its timing is off, then the money supply will rise quickly as banks start to lend more freely, and inflation results. In the US’ case, I see the Fed getting it wrong as a serious risk to price stability (rising inflation). American consumers are not savers and love to spend; and although some suggest that the American saving behavior has changed, the evidence is far from concrete. Unless saving rises permanently - the economy transitions to a world where consumption is less than 70% of GDP - consumers will be more than happy to swoop up the new bank lending and spend that new easy money. Quite frankly, I am not sure the Fed can get us out of this one. Money multipliers are plummeting and credit is just not increasing. Meanwhile, the real economy is falling off a cliff, meaning more loans will sour. How does the Fed believe it can increase lending in that environment? I’m sorry — de-leveraging will continue apace. But, what if I am wrong? What if the Fed can reflate the economy? Well, then we have to worry very seriously about the huge amounts of money sloshing around the system. If things get back in gear, inflation is going to be a very big problem. We can only hope this is a problem the Fed can handle. But, for most of us, this is the problem which we would rather have.
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Posted: December 15 2008 at 9:42pm |
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I was xmas shopping in my fav. store on a Tuesday.... it was stuffed. I could not believe the great buys and the merchandise was lovely. Better than last year. It was the first year that I was waited on with such efficiency... I tried on 6 diff pairs of boots and purchased the 6th pair. Things people need were marked down 30% and everything else (minus high end glam) was 50-60% off. It was fun for a change. I was able to find everything I needed in one place. They even had baskets full of stocking stuffers. We bought some books for children at Barnes and Noble...please try that if you can, it means a lot to the children to have books. The grocery stores have areas where you can buy toys for tots and this year our local grocery was giving toys to ill children. They made it so easy for us to buy kids gifts. It was nice to see so many people stepping up.
It is hard for parents to be out of work and have toys for children. All during the year we get points for buying groceries etc on our credit card. It really adds up at the end of the year. All the cousins got gift cards B&N for books. It was easy to save that way.
What kinds of interest rates are people paying on credit cards now?
I am paying 5.75%
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LaRo
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Joined: March 14 2008 Status: Offline Points: 350 |
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Posted: December 16 2008 at 5:50am |
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Well that is a good interest reate on your card, think how lucky your are, now think of the parent who lost his job and missed a couple payments on his card , he' probably having to pay 29% interest to the banksters.
Most likely charging everything he can on the card and will have to take out bankruptcy because of the times. There are trying times ahead and you should be grateful for the good life you're living and take time to think of those not so fortunate. Look around for the tent city in your town, there probably is one, we have one in Vegas, drop off some stuff there this year and give them a hand, not everyone has money to shop at salvation army. |
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r we there yet?
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Penham
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Moderator Joined: February 09 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14913 |
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Posted: December 16 2008 at 8:33am |
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I couldn't watch the video because I have dialup internet. We just got a statement from our credit card company that they were raising our rates to 6% because of the economy, I figured those were pretty good, considering others like WAMU are raising theirs to like 26% and such. I do not think the credit crisis is over, I think it is just beginning! Here in our are it is very hard to tell there is even a recession at all (they say our area has not been hit as badly) the stores are packed, people are buying like crazy, hard to find parking, long lines to checkout, not any difference than any other Christmas here in our area. However, our local county Food Bank is saying they are servicing 3-4 times as many families as normal a day I run our small towns local Christmas food drive/toy drive for my church. This year our church has 4 members needing help, normally in the past no one in our church has needed help at the holidays. We only have about 50 people so it is a small church, so 4 families is quite a few for us, that is not including the rest of the community that we do food baskets and toys for. I don't really notice an increase, but the situations are worse than in the past, since I know most people personally (small town pop 1200) you know alot about what goes an and who needs help. |
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ParanoidMom
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Posted: December 16 2008 at 1:11pm |
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We are definitely having a harder time this year. Because we have livestock, the feed prices are really hurting our budget. We raise the animals for our food so it's not like they're just for pets. The credit cards that we have balances on have had the interest rate jump on them. When the gas prices got really bad we had to cut out excessive trips to town, including taking our large vehicle to town once a week to attend church services as a family. Now the prices are coming down and we are able to add the simple things back in, but no more.
There are times I read on here that members are happy-go-lucky and think the whole economy thing is a bit hyped. They tell us everything is fine and they don't see any problems. Perhaps they aren't looking closely enough. I can't imagine anywhere in this country where a large population of the people aren't hurting. For some families it's the difference between having turkey for the holiday instead of prime rib. For others it's they won't have a holiday dinner unless the community is able to help them out. Most people don't like to talk about their circumstances, especially if the people they talk to tell them things like "Just pay off all your debt" or "You did it to yourself." None of us like a lecture when we're down.
I know of two families who are far worse off than we are. When they get up Christmas Eve they'll find a few bags of groceries and a couple of small goodies waiting for them on their front steps. I wish I could do more, but I'll do what I can. No lectures. No one they'll look at later and feel shame.
Penham- Our church is about the same size as yours, with one less family than you have that will need help. And when Christmas is over they'll still be wondering if they can keep the lights on and the heat going.
Nope, I don't think the credit crisis is anywhere near over. I think we all have a long haul and alot more people are going to feel the effects before we're done.
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But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of the Lord
Wisdom of Solomon 3:1 |
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Posted: December 16 2008 at 10:29pm |
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you should be grateful for the good life you're living and take time to think of those not so fortunate. ...................................................................................................... LaRoe... Please, tell me your point.... I bought a pair of winter boots, I haven't had new boots in 3 years. I also bought some books for needy children and a toy for tots...
(my credit card with low interest is military related)
p.s... (did it sound like I had too much fun? :) One can have fun on a shoe string.
hi Penham... can you get youtube? here is a video on youtube with Forbes taking about Obama's Tax Plan.
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I'm hoping people will try to get their interest rate lowered. I did by saying I didn't want to use the card at all because I thought the rate was too high... and the banks were making people afraid to put anything on their credit cards, because they can change the rates on a whim, people are definately afraid of that.
Or tell them you will have to transfer your balance to a company with a lower rate because they are charging too much interest. Keep a pleasant tone and try it out.
............................................................................................. thanks to-
Ask for a Lower Credit Card Interest Rate
Many people are surprised at how easy and quick it can be to get their credit card interest rates lowered. How easy is it? Just pick up the phone and call the appropriate number that appears on your credit card statement and ask for a lower rate. But before dialing, you need to make sure you are a good candidate for this strategy by doing some research.
Visit the websites of the largest credit card issuers listed below to compare various credit card offers. Keep in mind that the interest rates they advertise prominently on their websites are reserved for those who earn a median income and have excellent credit --
www.bankofamerica.com www.capitalone.com
www.americanexpress.com www.mbna.com www.discovercard.com www.fleet.com www.citibank.com www.chase.com www.wellsfargo.com www.firstunion.com www.bankone.com When you call and ask for a lower rate, your reasoning should be based on an argument such as you deserve it because you're an excellent customer or you're getting better offers from other banks.
Telephone Scripts
Script 1: I've visited the websites of several of your competitors, the ______ Bank and ______ Bank, and found that they are offering a _____ interest rate on purchases which is _____ points lower than what I'm paying on my credit card. Are you willing to give me that rate?
Script 2: I am requesting that you reduce my current interest rate of 16.9% to 8.9% so that it is in line with what is available in the current market. I feel this is a fair rate since at least three major credit card issuers, _________, _________, and _________ are offering it to new customers like me who have an excellent credit rating.
Script 3: [Find out the current rate being offered at a credit card website and then lie and say] I have received a pre-approved offer in the mail from Bank offering me a interest rate card. Can you beat or match that offer or do I have to transfer my balance to their credit card?
Script 4: I visited your website and noticed that you are offering a rate to attract new customers. I have been an excellent customer of yours for years and would like to receive the same rate being offered to new customers.
Script 5: I was about to sign up for a new credit card at the _______ website and thought I would call you and ask for a lower rate before doing so. If you don't give me that rate today I will transfer my balance from your card to theirs as soon as I hang up the phone.
Letters
If a telephone call won't work, odds are that a letter won't work either. We provide letters only because some people prefer sending a letter instead of phoning a credit card company, but note that sending a letter gives them a better opportunity to respond with a canned response refusing to lower your credit card interest rate.
Letter 1: Threaten to Transfer Balance To Another Card
Letter 2: Followup Letter When Phone Request For a Lower Rate is Denied Letter 3: Request They Match or Beat a Competitor's Offer Ask to Speak to a Supervisor
Credit card companies are aware that being are people advised to call and ask for a lower credit card interest rate so they have instructed their phone representatives to give callers a canned response claiming they can't lower the rate any further. If this happens to you, ask to speak to a supervisor. There is no guarantee, but odds are higher you will get better results with a supervisor.
And remember, just because they say no today, doesn't mean they will say no six months from now or a year from now. If they say no, then transfer the balance to another card if you qualify to do so. If you don't qualify for a transfer because your credit score isn't high enough, then spend the next six months paying down as much debt as you can and paying all of your bills on time so that you can raise your credit score and qualify for a better interest rate. Keep calling and asking for a lower rate every six months and work while you work on improving your credit score.
A major consumer group conducted a study to find out how easy it is to get a lower credit card interest rate. Fifty-seven percent (57%) of those who simply telephoned their credit card company and asked for a lower interest rate got one instantly. This rate was anywhere from 7 to 10 points lower than their current rate. Getting your interest rate lowered depends on various factors. They are more willing to say "yes" if you meet most or all of the following conditions:
(1) You have a good credit rating -- meaning no late pay notations on your credit report and a good credit score;
(2) You do not have a high debt-to-income ratio and you do not carry a big balance on your card; (3) You do not send in just the minimum payment required each month; (4) You have an excellent payment record with that particular creditor; (5) The credit card is not one that is categorized as "sub-prime", meaning it is not a secured credit card or one marketed exclusively to those with bad credit. Credit Cards Credit Debt Bankruptcy Loans Credit Cards Credit Cards, Debt problems Debt Management > Reduce Variable Expenses > Ask for a Lower Rate Next >> Debt Kit -- Settle unsecured debts for less than half of amount owed
Credit Kit -- Improve credit score and reduce monthly bills by $200+ |
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Johnray1
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Joined: April 23 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8159 |
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Posted: December 17 2008 at 6:11am |
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Mary08,this is just my opinion and I am not an economist,but I have watched the financial markets for a lot of years and I read a lot about the markets and I watch a lot of finacial analyst on TV. But in my opinion the worst is not over. the actual economy for regular people like us follows the stock market by a lag time of 6 to 12 months. So the worst is not over and the real worst has not even started yet. There will be millions more jobs lost after the first of the year,besides the ones that have already been lost. When these millions of layed people start to run out of savings to buy food,pay rent,make car payments ect. Then it will start to get bad and maybe even dangerous.-----The stock has not even recovered yet,it has just been proped up by printing more money and the government throwing it at everything. Our stock market will not recover for real until it recovers due to increased productivity by Americans haveing jobs. This could be the greatest depression that has ever been recorded. I do not blame the government for doing what they are doing.because they do not know what else to do.---During the last great depression,the government did nothing until FDR was elected,so we know that doing nothing does not work,but even the economest will tell you that they do not know if this approach will work either. This coming depression is not just here,it is world wide. It could last for years. The time to stop this depression was 10 years ago when the government encouraged the banks to loan millions and Billions of dollars to people who they knew could not pay it back.I would almost believe that it was planned. I hope that everything that I have just said is proven wrong,but I am afraid that it is not wrong. The soup kitchens in the large cities are already strecthed to the limit and most of the already announced lay offs have not even happened,so I am expecting worst,much worst. Johnray1
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coyote
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Joined: April 25 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8395 |
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Posted: December 17 2008 at 6:25am |
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Johnray, I couldn't agree with you more. I feel the same way you do.
Canadian PM Stephen Harper: A Depression Is 'Possible' Prime Minister Stephen Harper delivered a grim forecast for the Canadian economy, saying in an interview with broadcaster CTV a depression is possible. "The truth is, I've never seen such uncertainty in terms of looking forward to the future," Harper told CTV. "I'm very worried about the Canadian economy." Asked whether a depression was possible, he answered: "It could be, but I think we've learned enough about depression; we've learned enough from the 1930s to avoid some of the mistakes that caused a recession in 1929 to become a depression in the 1930s." A depression is often described as a prolonged economic slump in which output drops more than 10 percent. Unemployment in Canada hit 27 percent at the peak of the Great Depression in 1933 and between 1929 and 1933 Canada's gross national product fell 43 percent. In the interview, Harper also said his finance minister's budget on January 27 would include billions of dollars in stimulus spending, ending more than a decade of back-to-back balanced budgets in Canada. "Obviously, we're going to have to run a deficit," Harper said. "We're talking about spending billions of dollars that was not planned." |
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coyote
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Posted: December 17 2008 at 6:33am |
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Gov. David Paterson unveils dire New York State budget that includes new taxes, layoffs and cuts
By KENNETH LOVETT and GLENN BLAIN DAILY NEWS ALBANY BUREAU Updated Wednesday, December 17th 2008, 8:39 AM 18% tax on soda, iPod tax, movie theater tax, sporting event tax, taxi tax, bus tax, limo tax, cable TV tax, radio tax, clothing tax... Dire... TAX HELL... I live in NYS.. 
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ParanoidMom
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Posted: December 17 2008 at 7:15am |
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Mary08- I believe what LaRoe, as well as myself have been trying to gently say is how lucky you are and that perhaps you should be more aware of your surroundings. Please keep in mind you were able to buy that pair of winter boots. What about the parent that has to send their children to school wearing tennis shoes in the snow because it's all they own? You talk about the people being without jobs as being for the greater good. Do you have children? Stop and think right now what it would be like to not have enough food, not be able to warm your house, wondering if you have a job today or tomorrow because there are people out there who think it would be better that YOU go without.
Blogs do not have the ability to truly read a persons intentions. What you have written tells me that you are rather high on a pedestal looking down at those people. You bought books for the needy. That is nice and I can tell you sincerely believe you've done something good. Do you personally know any families who are struggling? It doesn't sound like it. If you do, maybe you can put $20.00 bucks aside and get them some food. Or use that wonderful low interest, military based credit card of yours to buy a warm jacket or at the very least give someone the pair of boots you just replaced because they have nothing.
In our local paper this morning there's an article that talks about all of the county workers having to give up 2 days of work a month. People with enough money and a small buffer zone would call this an inconvenience. However, the people that were barely holding it together (some of my own family members included) are in a panic. Even at $10.00 an hour that's $160.00 a month that is gone from their budgets. How many people do you know that can handle that kind of shortage?
I'm sorry I sound so sharp in this post. I'm really not trying to pick on you. It's just that so many people are saying things just like you as they sit in their homes and judge what should be happening in other people's lives. It is truly a blessing for you to be able to do that. Please, look around you. Read your local paper. See how the food banks are struggling, the businesses that are in trouble, the shelters that have to turn people away. Everyone of those articles has real people behind them.
The media may be trying to feed the sheeple good news and keep everything nice. These are the same people that told us for the past year everything was fine and there was no recession. Then they told us at the beginning of the month we've been in a recession for a full year. Check out the previous post about the taxes in NYS. We all need to see these things. That's how we'll get through the tough times. We have to see the problems before we can do anything about them. The worst is not over. With the HUGE corporations still struggling, MEGA companies folding and the government in an uproar things are going to get much worse before they can get better. It always rolls down hill. We're still looking at the top of the hill and its collapse.
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But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of the Lord
Wisdom of Solomon 3:1 |
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coyote
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Posted: December 17 2008 at 7:51am |
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The dead mall problem...CNN
The recession is leaving more retail casualties in its wake, and rising store bankruptcies and mall closures could have devastating economic consequences, CNNMoney reports. Major cities will be affected, said David Birnbrey, chairman and co-CEO of Atlanta-based the Shopping Center Group, a retail real estate services firm. "One of the biggest consequences is the loss of a sense of community," he said. full story * iReport.com: Skipping the mall this year? |
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Posted: December 17 2008 at 1:54pm |
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18% tax on soda, iPod tax, movie theater tax, sporting event tax, taxi tax, bus tax, limo tax, cable TV tax, radio tax, clothing tax... ........................................................ I live in NYS..
Tax h$ll... can we talk? There is a big push in the state to try to get property taxes lowered. Or to put a cap on them. It seems that people who retire are leaving the state to get away from the taxes. I posted on New York Now. I put my fixed income and my property taxes up there... It was pretty sad...they even contacted me to ask my town and permission to read my plight on air. In a small way I'm trying to get us taxpayers some help..relief...anything. What do you think of Cuomo getting NYS senator? or Ms Kennedy? I like both... but Cuomo is quite the hero (excellent) where he is... will have to read more on Ms Kennedy. ... |
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Posted: December 17 2008 at 4:06pm |
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LOL, Mary08 do really think Cuomo or Kennedy care if you are paying way too much in taxes...do you hear them saying anything to your Gov. about not raising these taxes? NO!
And I can tell you Kennedy has the the seat in the bag...she supported Obama big time and she will be rewarded even though the only experience she has is she supported Obama. Oh I know she has been on boards, worked for the poor but she has never worked a real job a day in her life. That is why Kennedy will not care about the NY new Taxes and fees and she will not help you. Your best bet is to move out of NY and find a less taxing state to live in. Sorry to be so honest but like I have said before I have been very involved with politics...moved in some DC circles and know who these people really are. The people we are electing do not care about us. |
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Posted: December 17 2008 at 6:41pm |
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more on the credit crisis...
December 11, 2008, 3:44 pm
Credit Crisis Skeptics Challenge Conventional WisdomIs there, or is there not, a credit crisis? Article in full
source
Indeed, untangling the implications of borrowing data is a difficult thing to do. The most recent National Federal of Independent Business November survey was pretty bleak in terms of what it found out about economic conditions. But the report found that among small businesses “no “credit crunch” has appeared to date beyond the normal cyclical tightening of credit.” The NFIB found that worries about interest rates and financing were a concern to only 3% of respondents, compared with 37% in 1982. And that’s as commentators are comparing the current recession increasingly to those dark days. By and large, the story of the NFIB report was that if credit is going untapped, it’s largely because company operators are not choosing to pursue the credit. It's not that companies can't get the extra money, it's that they don't want or need it because of the broader slowdown in economic activity. -Michael S. Derby
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Posted: December 17 2008 at 11:19pm |
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AP New credit card rules coming Thursday December 18, 1:52 am ET By Marcy Gordon, AP Business Writer Consumers to be spared from higher rates on existing balances under new rules for credit cards excerpt- WASHINGTON (AP) -- Consumers will be shielded from increases in interest rates on existing account balances on their credit cards under new rules being adopted by federal regulators. The changes will allow credit card companies to raise interest rates only on new credit cards and future purchases or advances, rather than on current balances. The new rules coming Thursday from the Federal Reserve and other banking regulators mark the most sweeping clampdown on the credit card industry in decades, aimed at protecting consumers from arbitrary hikes in interest rates or inadequate time provided to pay the bills. entire article found here- http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081218/credit_card_rules.html?.v=2 |
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Posted: December 17 2008 at 11:52pm |
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Obama looking at $850 billion jolt to the economy By JIM KUHNHENN, Associated Press Writer Jim Kuhnhenn, Associated Press Writer – 54 mins ago Dec. 17, 2008. After … excerpt- WASHINGTON – Anxious to jolt the economy back to life, President-elect Barack Obama appears to be zeroing in on a stimulus package of about $850 billion, dwarfing last spring's tax rebates and rivaling drastic government actions to fight the Great Depression. Obama has not settled on a grand total, but after consulting with outside economists of all political stripes, his advisers have begun telling Congress the stimulus should be bigger than the $600 billion initially envisioned, congressional officials said Wednesday. Obama is promoting a recovery plan that would feature spending on roads and other infrastructure projects, energy-efficient government buildings, new and renovated schools and environmentally friendly technologies. There would also be some form of tax relief, according to the Obama team, which is well aware of the political difficulty of pushing such a large package through Congress, even in a time of recession. Any tax cuts would be aimed at middle- and lower-income taxpayers, and aides have said there would be no tax increases for wealthy Americans. Please see entire article here source http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081218/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama_stimulus |
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Bloomberg
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Posted: December 18 2008 at 4:46am |
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"the worst is over" ????????????
the effects of of financial crisis into the real economy are actually not real clear. as long as everybody fears a great depression and acts like it will happen it will happen because of selffullfilling prophecy. as long as there will be no coordinated action around the world wich will stop thinking anybody pessimistic all companies will prepare for worst case and will provide with exactly this rational habit to the great depression. there are so many good companies who have to refinance their debts and who are vital for the world like Arcelor Mittal (steel company) and others. if they do not got refinanced by the banks or corporate bond sector we will get into real sss?ssssshhhhhhbhhhhhhhhh******************t. it will be nasty! another question is when the share prices will begin to rise. this will be probably the case when the worst is coming. so share prices will rise when the real economy and with it us personally will suffer most. |
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It doesnt mean a thing
if it aint got that swing |
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LaRo
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Posted: December 18 2008 at 7:47am |
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This is not near over. Presently we have lots of government money being thrown at the wall, most doesn't stick. Over 7 Trillion has been spent and we are no better off, no closer to the end. With banks having off balance sheet items such as CDS's, most of them are essentially bankrupt.
The government regulators are not regulating the banksters. The FDIC is probably dragging their feet in closing insolvent banks down because it would start to look like the 30's, so they are still in business running up more and more debt. Until this is all straightened out, we will not be near the end of the slow down or recession or depression, call it whatever you want. One thing we can all do is help out some of the people that are really having it rough. I've done this and it's probably safe for everyone to do it, if you have someone on the street with the little sign saying, "Please Help, need food", invite them to the nearest fast food place and meet them there and buy them a $5 meal. You'll get more out of doing something like this then you would imagine, the feeling that you did something that made a difference for someone else is a real high. |
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r we there yet?
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coyote
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Posted: December 18 2008 at 7:56am |
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Your a good person Laro!
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Long time lurker since day one to Member.
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ParanoidMom
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Posted: December 18 2008 at 9:25am |
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A sidenote to Laro's suggestion: Go buy the meal for the person or persons. Just hand it out the window like you would cash. This is safer for the giver and the receiver doesn't feel as threatened.
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But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of the Lord
Wisdom of Solomon 3:1 |
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coyote
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Posted: December 18 2008 at 9:54am |
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Good advice. The way things are today you can't trust anyone. I am starting to carry my pistol with me now a lot more than i ever did!
Call me paranoid " Coyote". |
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endman
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Posted: December 18 2008 at 12:25pm |
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Not So fast Denmark-based Saxo Bank each year comes out with a list of “outrageous” predictions for the next 12 months. According to the firm they are an “attempt to predict rare but high impact ‘black swan’ events that are beyond the realm of normal market expectations. Compiled as part of the bank’s 2009 Outlook, the thought exercise this year present a dismal view of the global financial landscape.”
Here are a few of Saxo Bank’s “outrageous” predictions for 2009:
There will be severe social unrest in Iran as lower oil prices mean that the government will not be able to uphold the supply of basic necessities.
Crude will trade at $25 as demand slows due to the worst global economic contraction since the great Depression. S&P 500 will hit 500 in 2009 because of falling earnings, vaporizing housing equity and increased cost of funds in the corporate sector. Chinese GDP growth drops to zero. The export driven sectors in the Chinese economy will be hurt significantly by the free-fall economic activity in the Global Trade and especially of the US. Reuters/ Jefferies CRB Index to drop to 30% to 150. The Commodity bubble is bursting, with speculative excesses so large they have skewed the demand and supply statistics. David Karsbol, Chief Economist at Saxo Bank says “it is not even outrageous to call this the worst economic crisis ever. We have, regrettably, been rather precise in almost all predictions from last year. What used to be outrageous now seems to be the norm. What are some of your predictions for next year?
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Posted: December 18 2008 at 12:48pm |
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.
A sidenote to Paranoidmom's suggestion: Posted: December 15 2008 at 9:42pm We bought some books for children at Barnes and Noble...please try that if you can, it means a lot to the children to have books. The grocery stores have areas where you can buy toys for tots and this year our local grocery was giving toys to ill children. They made it so easy for us to buy kids gifts. It was nice to see so many people stepping up.   "Greenspan's Fingerprints All Over Enduring Mess," On October 17, 2008, attorney Timothy D. Naegele wrote an article in the American Banker entitled, "Greenspan's Fingerprints All Over Enduring Mess," which argues that Alan Greenspan's actions and inactions triggered the economic crises of 2008. The article discusses 'the economic tsunami that has been rolling worldwide with devastating effects'; and the author asserts that 'Greenspan is the architect of the enormous economic "bubble" that burst globally'. The author cites Giulio Tremonti, Italy's Minister of Economy and Finance, who said: "Greenspan was considered a master. Now we must ask ourselves whether he is not, after [Osama] bin Laden, the man who hurt America the most."[180] While Greenspan's role as Chairman of the Federal Reserve has been widely discussed (the main point of controversy remains the lowering of Federal funds rate at only 1% for more than a year which, according to the Austrian School of economics, allowed huge amounts of "easy" credit-based money to be injected into the financial system and thus create an unsustainable economic boom[181][182]), there is also the argument that Greenspan actions in the years 2002-2004 were actually motivated by the need to take the U.S. economy out of the early 2000s recession caused by the bursting of dot-com bubble - although by doing so he did not help avert the crisis, but only postpone it.[183][184] Many libertarians, including Congressman and former 2008 Presidential candidate Ron Paul[185] and Peter Schiff in his book Crash Proof, predicted the crisis prior to its occurrence. They are critical of theories that the free market caused the crisis[186] and instead argue that the Federal Reserve's printing of money out of thin air and the Community Reinvestment Act are the primary causes of the crisis.[187] However Alan Greenspan himself has conceded he was partially wrong to oppose regulation of the markets, and expressed "shocked disbelief" at the failure of the self interest of the markets, which according to neo-liberal economic theory should have protected shareholder equity.[188] It has also been argued that the root cause of the crisis is overproduction of goods caused by globalization.[189] Overproduction tends to cause deflation and signs of deflation were evident in October and November, as commodity prices tumbled and the Federal Reserve was lowering its target rate to an all-time-low 0.25%.[190] On the other hand, Professor Herman Daly suggests that it is not actually an economic crisis, but a crisis of overgrowth beyond sustainable ecological limits.[191] [edit] Other countries in economic recession Many countries experienced recession in 2008.[192] The countries currently in a technical recession are Estonia, Latvia, Ireland, New Zealand, Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Italy and Germany. Despite the contention that the United States of America has been in a recession since 2007, GDP growth has remained positive until the second quarter of 2008. Denmark and Iceland went into recession in the first quarter of 2008, but came out again in the second quarter.[193]. The following countries went into recession in the second quarter of 2008: Estonia,[194] Latvia,[195] Ireland[196] and New Zealand.[197] The following countries/territories went into recession in the third quarter of 2008: Japan,[198] Sweden,[199] Hong Kong, [200], Singapore,[201] Italy [202] and Germany. [203] As a whole the fifteen nations in the European Union that use the euro went into recession in the third quarter.[204] The following countries experienced negative growth in the third quarter 2008 and all are expected to go into recession in the fourth: United States and Britain. If all of those countries stay in recession, then of the seven largest economies in the world by GDP, only China and France would avoid a recession in 2008. In the year to the third quarter of 2008 China grew by 9%. This is interesting as China has until recently considered 8% GDP growth to be required simply to create enough jobs for rural people moving to urban centres.[205] This figure may more accurately be considered to be 5-7% now that population growth is declining. Growth of between 5%-8% could well have the type of effect in China that a recession has elsewhere. ............... |
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Kilt2
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Posted: December 18 2008 at 10:47pm |
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the worst is yet to come
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And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.
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endman
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Posted: December 19 2008 at 12:25pm |
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I think the words “Don’t trust anybody over 30” need to be applied here.
We tend to very lazy when it comes to politics or the economy and that why We don’t questions the decisions of our elected leaders we fight over football and baseball more than over taxes. I think we all need to change |
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Posted: December 19 2008 at 11:14pm |
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Capital Being Hoarded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAaUkmAKw4A&NR=1 |
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Posted: December 20 2008 at 4:21pm |
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GM will survive Christmas....
limits on pay and Bonuses...no Jets.....1st paid, taxpayers No 'car czar' in Bush bailout for carmakers -
WASHINGTON, Dec 19 (Reuters) - The White House on Friday opted against appointing a "car czar" to oversee the $17.4 billion bailout of US automakers, ...
Buying..time...Giving Them More $$$ down the Road... next Pres. Problem now... YouTube
.....................
A bridge loan with conditions is expected to help auto makers get through the |
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LaRo
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Posted: December 21 2008 at 9:02am |
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Funny, the auto manufactures can't have jets or bonuses, yet the ones who got the economy in this mess have absolutely no restrictions. Remember how the Insuraqnce executives went on vacation after the money infusion by the treasury. I'm sure they earned a big bonus this year.
I suspect we will soon be seeing the fed either be shut down or the money revamped. The dollar will not survive this crisis. It may be the root cause of it, since it has no backing of any type, except the word of a few who say it's sound. But we've heard their words of wisdom before, when they said we're at the bottom and everything still drops like a rock. |
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r we there yet?
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alpha480v
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Posted: December 21 2008 at 9:43am |
I would not call you paranoid to carry. It is smart. I carry more now to. If you have a ccw permit than use it! Lots of bad guys out there. And things are only going to get worse imho.
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LaRo
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Posted: December 22 2008 at 10:47am |
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Article saying how we got into this mess http://www.kitco.com/ind/schoon/dec222008.htmland how to get out of it.
Back to the constitution. http://www.kitco.com/ind/schoon/dec222008.html |
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r we there yet?
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Posted: December 23 2008 at 12:09am |
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Videos http://www.thestreet.com/video/index.html#5295913001
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LaRo
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Posted: December 23 2008 at 6:29am |
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Shadow government says we're already past the 10% unemployment. As you know most numbers put out by the official government are a little off. Look at cost of living, they don't take into consideration the cost of food. Nonsense.
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r we there yet?
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Posted: December 24 2008 at 3:13pm |
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source-
http://www.smartmoney.com/personal-finance/college-planning/financial-crisis-answer-center/ Financial Crisis Answer Center .............................................. December 24, 2008 QUESTION. I have money invested in six American Funds. They have all lost approximately 40%. Should I take out the remaining monies and put it in a CD, or keep the money in the mutual funds in hopes they recover some day? Obviously it is only a paper loss at this time, but the way things are going I'm afraid I am going to lose it all. --Betty Kerns ANSWER. The answer depends on several factors. Are these funds down much more than other mutual funds in the same category? If not, the problem might not be the funds per se but the lousy market. If that's the case, how many years do you have before you want to tap this money? If you have a long time horizon (five to 10 years), wait for the market to rebound rather than locking in those losses. The most common mistake investors make is to sell low and then buy again when prices are high. |
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Posted: December 24 2008 at 3:39pm |
What Credit Card Changes Will Mean To Yousourcehttp://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/18/earlyshow/living/ConsumerWatch/main4675210.shtmlExpert Explains Ins And Outs Of Rules Approved By Fed For 2010, On The Early ShowNEW YORK, Dec. 18, 2008 (CBS) Sweeping changes approved by the Federal Reserve Board ending controversial credit card practices by banks are a "really good things and a long time coming" according to author and personal finance expert Jordan Goodman. On The Early Show Thursday, Goodman explained the updated rules to co-anchor Maggie Rodriguez. He's also pointing consumers to Web sites that could help them improve their credit card situations now. The changes OK'd by the Fed don't take effect until 2010. New Fed Credit Card Rules "They're not gonna raise the interest rate if you've been less than 30 days late. In the past, if you were three days late (for instance), they would hit you. That's not gonna happen anymore. So that's a really, really good thing." Payments won't show up on credit reports as late anymore until the 30-day mark is hit. "They're not gonna increase interest rates if your payment is missed on another card. ... If you miss on your phone bill or something like that, the credit card companies see it and raise all your interest rates to across the board. That's what's called the 'universal default clause.' That one's gonna be gone, too." "No (more) retroactive interest. This is what's called 'double-cycle billing.' You've paid your bill for the last month, but you're still paying interest, even though you've paid it off in the past. It's outrageous. So, they're gonna stop double-cycle billing. That's a really very, very good thing." "Those things have got all sorts of legalese and (are) very difficult (to read). (Banks are) supposedly gonna make it much easier to read, so you understand the interest rates, you understand the late fees and all that, so that, hopefully, should make things a little bit better." There will be more bold-face print, and still be a bunch of legalese, but more plain language. Companies will have to be more forthcoming on their policies. Banks won't quietly accept the changes though, Goodman warned. "The banks are gonna really battle on this one," he said. "They're going to lose about $12 billion in income from these kind of things. So, they're gonna try to make it up in other ways. "They probably will -- the zero percent offers you see these days, or the balance transfers -- those might be much more limited or not available at all. They'll raise annual fees, they'll do all kinds of other things to squeeze money out of us, one way or the other." Goodman, who's also editor of MoneyAnswers.com, suggested Web sites that could help you with your credit card picture until the just-approved changes go into effect in 2010: |
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Posted: December 25 2008 at 8:50pm |
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Question...
Who made this word so very popular?
........................................................................
On The Early Show Thursday, Goodman explained the updated rules...
"They're not gonna raise the interest rate if you've been less than 30 days late That's not gonna happen anymore.
"They're not gonna increase interest rates if your payment is missed on another card.
So, they're gonna stop double-cycle billing.
"The banks are gonna really battle on this one," he said
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Posted: December 25 2008 at 8:52pm |
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some people may have some money left over... or waited til after?
Where to Find the Absolute Best Post-Christmas Sales
Here's where you can score some impressive post-holiday deals: J.C. Penney announced it will open at 5:30 a.m. the day after Christmas--the earliest opening in the store's history--and offer 100 door-buster specials, including 50 to 60 percent off private-label clothing for men and women, as well as 75 percent off Christmas decorations. The general merchandiser is offering a free wake-up call so that shoppers don't miss the sale. Target is offering clearance products and promotions of up to 75 percent off on select clothing, furniture, electronics, holiday décor, and more. Consumers can also save up to 50 to 70 percent on bath and bedding. The savings and values at Toys "R" Us stores will stretch into the New Year. Some of the items that will be available from Dec. 26, 2008, through Jan. 3, 2009, include 75 percent off a 1.60 Scale X-Trek Pro 15' Race Track Set; 60 percent off certain table games; 50 percent off some Hannah Montana Dolls; and 20 percent off all iPod cases and headphones. You can get a jump on your holiday decorating for next year. Home improvement retailer Home Depot will be offering 50 percent off of all holiday décor beginning December 26. Barnes & Noble, the nation's largest book retailer, is offering thousands of books at 50 to 90 percent off for its "After Holiday Warehouse Clearance Sale." Discounts are also available on music, DVDs, toys, video games, journals, calendars, and albums. Starting this Sunday, Wal-Mart, the largest retailer in the United States, will introduce additional savings, with new values on select electronic games, $60 savings on select HDTVs, and reduced prices on home and office needs. KB Toys announced Monday that it will be closing its doors for good and has launched a liquidation sale at all 461 of its KB Toys, KB Toy Outlet, KB Toys Holiday, and KB Toy Works stores. Sales at KB Toys stores will begin at 40 percent off regular prices. The bath products retailer Bath and Body Works is having an after-holiday sale of up to 50 percent off on products including body lotions, shower gels, hand creams, and fragrances. Circuit City will see the holiday shopping season extend into January. The electronics retailer will be offering big discounts on televisions, digital cameras, home theater systems, computers, computer accessories, GPS, music, movies, and games, according to company spokesperson Jim Babb. Kohl's is having a huge clearance of 60 to 80 percent off on men's, women's, and children's clothing. Even luxury retailer Neiman Marcus will be offering steep discounts with its After Christmas Sale. Shoppers can find sales on women's, men's, and children's designer apparel, as well as designer shoes, handbags, and jewelry. Neiman Marcus will be offering an extra 40 percent off already-reduced prices. One thing to think about if you decide to hit the stores after Christmas: Many shoppers will be returning merchandise or redeeming gift cards the first few days after Christmas. If you wait until the first full week of January, you 'll be able to choose from the merchandise that people have returned. You'll also avoid those punishing return lines. But you might miss out on the deepest discounts.
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coyote wrote: