Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk |
Obama wants Names of Anti-Healtcare Bill Reported - Event Date: August 05 2009 - August 05 2010 |
Post Reply |
Author | ||
Johnray1
Valued Member Joined: April 23 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8159 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: August 05 2009 at 10:45am |
|
To,All, The news media just announced that the Obama white house wants the names of all of the of anti-Healthcare Bill activists reported to the White house. He also wants these names reported to the white house by own/your neighbers. Any Guesses?Johnray1
|
||
Mary008
V.I.P. Member Joined: June 22 2009 Status: Offline Points: 5769 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
hi Johnray.. we really do want a health care bill.... but we want a decent fair Bill.
it will take work....and crafting. Did the Pres check the usual places? AMA ... Insurance Co's? Medicare...people are afraid the Gov. will cherry pick it silly... right now elderly can get a triple bi-pass... will that continue? They don't want to give up anything... We all want a good quality of life in our older years. I see that the operations they make people wait for are better done at 60 rather than 70... why wait till the last carpal is hung?
Some elders wait years until it's bad enough for the Doctor to give an almighty :) Referral
.....................
I thought it was pretty hard to hide one's opposition in DC... Invite the opposition to a party. works every time.
and....
All Government Employees... we are talking Congress and Pres. etc... must be required to carry this new Govt. Health Ins. Plan or pay a very heavy tax/fine.
.................
at that point Pres. Obama will not find so much opposition... right....
.........
|
||
Guests
Guest Group |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
You are so correct Mary. Are we going to let a 70 year old die even if a triple bypass will let him live 5 more years and enjoy is life.
Obama wants peoples names reported to him...are we now living in the USSR. Report your neighbor and we will put him/her in Siberia. Obama needs to go folks. He is worse than Bush!! |
||
Turboguy
Admin Group Joined: October 27 2007 Status: Offline Points: 6079 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Johnray, they want names so the Brownshirts... Civilian Defense Force can Alpha and Omega their way to their home and take them to the Re-education camp... er... enlighten them with pleasant suggestion.
|
||
Wolfmanjack
Valued Member Joined: April 25 2009 Status: Offline Points: 211 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Mehh... I am suposidly unelagiable for surgery on my arm.. The reason i was told was "You are not in enough pain yet" I have nerve damage and the longer it isn't fixed the worse the nerve damage will get. .... And more then likely even after the surgery it will not get any better.. The only reason to have the surgery is to prevent more nerve damage from happening.
Mehh.... Unless i am willing to pay money i do not have for the surgery i will not get it until after major damage to my nerve in my arm has been done.. Total BS... |
||
"The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion."
— Arthur C. Clarke |
||
Turboguy
Admin Group Joined: October 27 2007 Status: Offline Points: 6079 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
That's horrible Wolfman!
But I have a sneaking suspicion that your situation would be exactly the same, if not far worse than you have right now if the Government takes control.
|
||
Mahshadin
Admin Group Joined: January 26 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3882 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
More Fear
Mongering From the Right
Boy this is contructive
WAKE UP
|
||
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
|
||
Mary008
V.I.P. Member Joined: June 22 2009 Status: Offline Points: 5769 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
as requested? ...more on wanting names... (it is from the right :) Poor Pres Obama... people keep telling him to shut up. When we reach high positions... humility and measured speech are golden.
GOP Senator: White House Encroaching on First Amendment August 05, 2009 1:33 PM ABC News Rick Klein reports: ..................................................... A Republican senator is calling for the White House to suspend a new project that asks members of the public to flag "fishy" claims about President Obama's health care plans, arguing that it raises privacy concerns and will serve to chill free speech.
Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, is sending a letter to the White House today asking the president to "cease this program immediately" -- or to explain how Americans' privacy will be protected if e-mails are forwarded to the White House as requested.
story and comments here-
|
||
Mary008
V.I.P. Member Joined: June 22 2009 Status: Offline Points: 5769 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
"You are not in enough pain yet"
.
You have to let the Doc know that use of your arm is impeded.. use those words...and tell him you want the arm tested for nerve damage. Yes... they can test it... the Doc usually needs this test to refer you for an operation. They have to do it in steps.
please go to the link...scroll down and read about the test.
.
htm&usg=__3-3zT5kLrBN5PUhDOogxzo6wQqc=&h=212&w=268&sz=12&hl=en&start=12&um=1&tbnid=c
VuDqUPg2yJrMM:&tbnh=89&tbnw=113&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dneurologist%2Bwill%2Bdo%2Bwhat%2Bthey%2Bcall%2Ba%2BEMG%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1
................................
|
||
Medclinician
V.I.P. Member Valued Member Since 2006 Joined: July 08 2009 Status: Offline Points: 23322 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Mary, it should be known that they are going to exclude many treatments for those over 60 in the Senate version of the bill. Also, whatever we may want, we can't afford it, and basically as in times past, we will likely add up with less for more in the end. Noted about 6 months in an article and post- Health Care Reform is a high price item we cannot afford during a serious recession. The recession itself should be addressed in order to provide the funds before rushing to design cost efficient programs which offer less care to the aging and drastically reduced authorized test needed to diagnose disease. The medically literate going through the substance of the bills, as per the hype and generalization given to the public, can spot a lot of no can dos. It is not being negative. It is like saying, well yes.. we pass this massive health care plan, and then we break our promise and tax the middle class to pay for it. In the end, it will be the people and not industry that will pay for it. And there will be triaging so that people will be denied care if they are in a group which has chronic illness. Basically it is geared to a catastrophic type care while edging out long term ill patients who are aging and need health care dollars the most. These people may be left without any safety net at all. If you want to create a socialist government, of course you can have things like health care for all and tons of benefits. Yet, we are lacking on the big money people and wage earners to suport the incredible drain of a system which will support younger immigrants while cutting out aging citizens. Sometimes it is not a good thing to get something through congress and passed just to say we did it, and then it doesn't help. The economic plan to help us, wound up in the pockets of the bankers in bonuses while little went out to the citizens. We continue to see these brilliant programs which as yet, are not working. Just some contrapoint. If wishes we horses, beggars would ride. A year ago at the polls we all wanted a lot of things and believed they would happen. We wanted out of Afghanistan as brigades of our fighters are pouring in now. We wanted a better economy as the jobless rate is still dismal. And now we want a massive health care bill as we approach the second wave of a Pandemic. This is a lot more politics than medicine. Med |
||
Johnray1
Valued Member Joined: April 23 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8159 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Turboguy,these were my exact thoughts.Johnray1
|
||
Medclinician
V.I.P. Member Valued Member Since 2006 Joined: July 08 2009 Status: Offline Points: 23322 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
There seems to a considerable lack of knowledge and treatment when we start getting in these neurological type issues. One thing is for certain, and I lucky with a 1/2 inch kidney stone that pain is not borderline-kind of a clear cut issue in terms of agony. I know others locally though wake up everyday (including relatives) hurting. 100,000,000 Americans are in chronic pain. Somewhere on here is a link for that. And in the hospital hangs this impressive goal of the medical treatment thing and one of the items is to relieve people who are in pain. Well, its not happening. When we used to work post-op out came the patient and after anesthesia wore off in went demerol and frequently. At 3 hours after last shot- patients were squeezing my arm and saying how long has it been.. I am hurting. Well, yes, slice a person open, take out an organ, and they will be as if they had been knifed in a gang fight. Same effect only, messier. Pain. Now the medical industry with the drugs to stop the pain or getting skittish. It used to be to force you into the hospitals for a costly operation and then in the hospital you could get the good stuff or stronger stuff for $50 a pill. Now its the same operation, the same slice and dice, and your are approached with a shot of "well this used to be used for arthritis and it really isn't a pain shot" it more like tylenol on no steroids.. but you must at least try it. Nope those visits used to be you waited forever and then wondered, why did I come. Go home and take an over the counter med and drink gatorade or 7-up? They took my temp- its up- and then said.. well its a virus? Then you take someone with serious nerve disease. We haven't reached the days of Soylent Green yet. You don't get a symphony, the final pain shot, and get to see videos of the beautiful nature as it used to be before the big sleep. Nope, you get to try a new medicine poked in the pocket of your doctor at a conference, which does essential nothing, but does have over 50 side effects, of which you get at least 3 to 4 and feel worse than when you took the medicine and wait for it to wear off so at least the side effects will stop. You see it was the medical stories of doing organ transplants on totally poor people which cost hundreds of thousands of dollars or taking care of the sick children of the planet that could somehow get into the U.S. that wiped us out. We cannot do back to 1956 when my dad drove a truck and had served in the Navy for 20 years.. and when I went into Oakland military to get treatment- my dad had earned it. So.. back to France when misquoted Marie said let them eat cake- Lets try telling the old people in agony- let them suffer...we can't afford to treat them. Not a good idea. Medclinician |
||
dr d
Valued Member Joined: November 30 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 360 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
but with the czars and TWP will there be any options??
page 30 sec 123 of the HC bill " a government committee will decide what if any treatments/benefits a person may receive.
pg58 government will have real time access to Indivuals finaces and a national ID healthcard will be issued...( kind of like the NPI that ALL DOCTORS WERE FORCED TO HAVE)
pg 59 lines 21-24 government will have direct access to your bank account for election funds
pg 42 the health choices commissioner will choose YOUR benefits for you
|
||
Dr d
|
||
Turboguy
Admin Group Joined: October 27 2007 Status: Offline Points: 6079 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I can has Kool aid?
The Messiah's popularity is dropping faster than a lead balloon, pretty much everything he's done thus far has been an unmitigated disaster, and you think this is fear mongering?
Either you're naive or voluntarily blissfully ignorant. Either way it is you that needs to wake up.
|
||
Wolfmanjack
Valued Member Joined: April 25 2009 Status: Offline Points: 211 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I did go and see a neurologist.. Stuck me with a bunch of needles etc He set up a appointment with a surgeon and the surgeon is the one that said i wasn't a candidate for surgery.. The two main reasons i was giving was (Your a smoker) And (Your not in enough pain).. I walked away from that meeting a bit befuddled..
Mehh... |
||
"The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion."
— Arthur C. Clarke |
||
DISPENSER4HIRE
Valued Member Joined: October 27 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 16 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I for one, cannot think of anything the Government has ever done, that is both efficient, and effective. Running the military, and collecting taxes are the two things they are best at. The military has some of the finest people serving in it, but also has $600 toilet seats for airplanes, friendly fire cassualties, and politicians not warriors at the highest levels. The IRS misses millions in taxes every year, (just look at the politicians that don't pay) cannot give advice on the tax code, that you can hold them to etc.
Why anyone thinks turning over a large chunk of the economy, and trusting those incompetent, officious, morons with your health care is a good idea is something I do not understand. Yes we need improvements in out current system, but I would rather leave it as is than have a Government run system.
You think it is a nightmare dealing with insurance companies, just wait until you have to deal with government bereaucrats. (I work for the government, and I can do anything I want!) |
||
Mahshadin
Admin Group Joined: January 26 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3882 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Heck of an attitude
If you Truley belive failure is imminent
If you vote people into office with the same view
Gues what you will get
Imminent Failure
____________________________________________________
Oh and by the way
Insurance companies make profit by not giving healthcare
A government Financed system would not have a profit Motive
___________________________________________________
But never mind you only bellieve and expect failure so you have already written the ending to the book before the introduction has been completed
|
||
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
|
||
Turboguy
Admin Group Joined: October 27 2007 Status: Offline Points: 6079 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I completely agree in the self fufilling prophesy. The difference this time is that we were saddled with a presidency based on "Hope" and "Change." Problem is that the "Change" people were hoping for isn't the change that's being offered. I still await the President to fill my Gas tank and pay off my mortgage. Nevermind, I already do both on my own without any government interference aside from exorbitant taxes.
This "Change" they're trying involves pushing as many bills through the various commitees and halls of congress without reading them, attempting to levy the single largest tax burden in the history of the United States, and then they try to push a healthcare bill that THEY THEMSELVES will not be subject to. That's not the change the vast, vast majority of Americans wanted! That's corruption and a convoluted vision. The Majority of Americans didn't vote for this numbnuts, approximately 20% did. I "Hope" that'll "Change" in 2012.
Now you have the audacity to accuse the "Right" of trumping up a load of BS when in actuality it's a plurality that is not even remotely happy with what's going on, regardless of what the "Right" says. If the "Right" has that amount of power to influence the debate even considering that the Media is hedgemonically controlled by the Left, The Left is doing something horribly wrong.
If it's the "Right" doing this, exactly why is the Left being pounded soundly in each and every Town Hall meeting? Exactly why is the Left recruiting Union bosses and enforcers to intimidate those that speak out at these Town Hall meetings? If the Left is correct about the issues, THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE TO FEAR PEOPLE EXPOSING WHAT'S GOING ON!!! This government is literally six steps from a revolt. All there needs to be is the match of these Enforcers beating some questioner's head in to kick it off.
The Insurance argument is exactly right. They bet that more often than not the people that get insurance from them will remain healthy. Thus they get profit. That is not a bad thing. It becomes a bad thing when an insurance company dictates what procedures will be done at the patient level. You're too smart to actually believe that actions like that will magically disappear when a politician or "Czar" is at the helm rather than a greedy businessman.
Did you ever stop to think that it might not be the insurance companies at fault, but the healthcare providers overcharging for their service? If the Government gets in control, what makes you think that's gonna change? If anything it'll get far more expensive! There's many more ways to hide skimming off the top when government bureaucracy gets involved.
A government financed system like Medicare? Like Social Security? Like Cash for Clunkers? These stellar examples of governmental success should be shouted from the rooftops man.
And don't you dare accuse me of being either Right or Left. I ride the middle and take from both sides. I simply hate hypocrisy.
Oh and lastly: The deal with the president wanting names and addresses of detractors is an attempt to quash 1st amendment rights, plain and simple. Intimidating people from speaking out by making them fear their name winding up on a Public Enemies list. If George W. did this exact same deal, your outrage would be so immense it could scarcely be bottled.
Remember that everything sent to the White House is recorded. Every call, email, and letter. Know also that what teh President did with this is specifically illegal! Haven't heard a word about that one though, did ya? |
||
Mary008
V.I.P. Member Joined: June 22 2009 Status: Offline Points: 5769 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Last year, the Government Accountability Office, or the GAO, looked into 95 major defense projects and found cost overruns that totaled $295 billion.
Wasteful spending comes from exotic requirements, lack of oversight, and indefensible no-bid contracts that don't make our troops or our country any safer.
To put this in perspective, these cost overruns would have paid our troops' salaries and provided benefits for their families for more than a year.
............................
and who pays that $295 billion ? middle America. and if the Gov takes over health
care what will it cost middle America? as in cost overruns ?
like I said... I want it and I don't want it...
Thanks for posting the link Mahs....... wow really am still quite ill....
|
||
Mahshadin
Admin Group Joined: January 26 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3882 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Mary008
________________________________________________________
FRIDAY, MAY 22ND, 2009 AT 10:25 AM
Reform for Our TroopsPosted by Jesse Lee
This morning the President signed legislation that seems an obvious step, and yet it is one that has not been taken despite all of the incidents that have cried out for it: reform of the defense procurement and contracting system. This accomplishment for American taxpayers ,and for our military who can now stretch every dollar that much further for those who serve our country, was made all the more gratifying by the bipartisan consensus that it finally found.
The President recognized Senator McCain in particular in his remarks:
Last year, the Government Accountability Office, or the GAO, looked into 95 major defense projects and found cost overruns that totaled $295 billion. Wasteful spending comes from exotic requirements, lack of oversight, and indefensible no-bid contracts that don't make our troops or our country any safer. To put this in perspective, these cost overruns would have paid our troops' salaries and provided benefits for their families for more than a year.
At a time when we're fighting two wars and facing a serious deficit, this is unexcusable and unconscionable. As Secretary Gates has said, one dollar of waste in our defense budget is a dollar we can't spend to support our troops, or prepare for future threats, or protect the American people. Well, it's finally time to end this waste and inefficiency.
Already, I've announced reform that will greatly reduce no-bid defense contracts and save the government billions of dollars. And Secretary Gates, working with our military leadership, has also proposed a courageous set of reforms in our defense budget that will target waste and strengthen our military for the future. In taking on this enormously difficult task, he's done a tremendous job, and I want to publicly commend Secretary Gates for that.
The bill I'm signing today, known as the Weapons System Acquisition Reforms Act, represents an important next step in this procurement reform process. It reforms a system where taxpayers are charged too much for weapons systems that too often arrive late -- a system that suffers from spending on unproven technologies, outdated weapons, and a general lack of oversight.
The purpose of this law will be to limit cost overruns before they spiral out of control. It will strengthen oversight and accountability by appointing officials who will be charged with closely monitoring the weapons systems we're purchasing to ensure that costs are controlled. If the cost of certain defense projects continue to grow year after year, those projects will be closely reviewed, and if they don't provide the value we need, they will be terminated. This law will also enhance competition and end conflicts of interest in the weapons acquisitions process so that American taxpayers and the American military can get the best weapons at the lowest cost.
And this legislation is long overdue, and it's been a long time coming. But we're finally signing it into law because of the dedication and commitment of a few key members of Congress who've been fighting for years for this reform: Senators Carl Levin and John McCain; Representatives Ike Skelton, John McHugh, Rob Andrews, and Mike Conaway. I'm very proud of the extraordinary work that all these gentlemen have done who are standing behind me today. Senator McCain couldn't be here today because he's making sure he has a good seat to watch his son graduate from the Naval Academy in a few hours, and that's where I'm headed as soon as I catch my ride over here.
But I will tell you that defense procurement reform was one of the issues that John McCain and I discussed in our first meeting after the election. We pledged to work together to get it done, and today I'm extraordinarily proud to stand here and sign a bill that passed with unanimous support from both parties at every step of the way.
_________________________________________________________________
I know its not perfect but things are being done even though you dont hear much about them.
|
||
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
|
||
Elver
Valued Member Joined: June 14 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7778 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
This is starting to sound like Nazi Germany all over again.
|
||
abcdefg
Valued Member Joined: September 19 2008 Status: Offline Points: 578 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Fear mongering, whose the fool who asked people to rat other people out. In all of the history of the United States that has not been done, it is only done in dictatorships. It seems to me the fear mongerer is the one who is so set on getting his way, that he is telling people to rat out their neighbors, friends whomever. He wants to shut them up.
Imagine in a year or so if this thing gets past, he will be telling people hey you bad mouth the government and we find out, we may loose your health card and you get none.
Did he not say also to hit back harder to people about health care, then the fights at the town hall meetings started. This is all insane. Obama has no one to thank but himself.
Had this been any other president left or right who said these things they would be crusififed by the press. WAke up and smell the brown shirts coming.
|
||
Turboguy
Admin Group Joined: October 27 2007 Status: Offline Points: 6079 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Here's an idea: How about instead of FORCING people onto the government's dime, the government create it's own system and those that want it can pay into it. If the government sets itself up as competition and only takes from those that want government healthcare, fine.
But that's not the way you really want this to work now is it?
|
||
Mary008
V.I.P. Member Joined: June 22 2009 Status: Offline Points: 5769 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I sent a similar idea over to
in the vein that they needen't totally take it over. send your thoughts.
(they want names)
|
||
Medclinician
V.I.P. Member Valued Member Since 2006 Joined: July 08 2009 Status: Offline Points: 23322 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I think the wake up is appropriate. When you start using emotional catch phrases like fear mongering- this is classic. No one gets paid for trying to see through the veil of spin. People do get paid for creating and pushing it. If you had read what I found concerning the absolute no effective testing of the vaccine being before this stuff is given to children and they have no idea how effective or dangerous it is, this not fear mongering. This is common sense and basic scientific foundational research science. If you cannot acurrately predict what is going to happen, how can you accurately predict what is not going to happen? Nothing medical or rational has been put out at all on why this stuff will work. Also, a pure fib is that it is based on old technology. It is based on cell not egg technology. That is new. It is not decades old and they could not possibly manufacture this by the tank using former methods. Even quality control on this massive number of dosages pushed out this fast is in question. When we were making modems and cranked up the gold line 3 times faster at 3Com in Silicon Valley- I was working quality control, and we got this massive run of 25,000 boards that were defective covered with solder drips. One guy lost his job over this one run. No it wasn't me. I was one of the ones that spotted it. The basic flaw in logic- is if its not that dangerous why is it so important to vaccinate everyone before it is properly tested? Somehow, maybe we can get some real CFR values instead of thousands of cases and no deaths. We used to have 100 patients in a convalescent hospital who got cold and somebody died. No doubt people will buy this. It is what they want to hear. Medclinician |
||
Turboguy
Admin Group Joined: October 27 2007 Status: Offline Points: 6079 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Med, what the hell are you talking about? You've got quite the one track mind man.
|
||
reality check
Valued Member Joined: May 15 2007 Location: CANADA Status: Offline Points: 683 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Nothing medical or rational has been put out at all on why this stuff will work. Also, a pure fib is that it is based on old technology. It is based on cell not egg technology. That is new. medlinician [/QUOTE] Please explain the human diploid Cell vaccine which has been the norm for at least two (2) decades for the post and pre -teatment for the rabies VIRUS vaccines is not OLD technology.Duck embroy vaccines is even older tehnology than the twenty year old cell technology for the rabies virus. BTW MED...a mini mansion is an oxymorron. like true lies RC
|
||
"tell med the grasshoppers won"
|
||
Medclinician
V.I.P. Member Valued Member Since 2006 Joined: July 08 2009 Status: Offline Points: 23322 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Please explain the human diploid Cell vaccine which has been the norm for at least two (2) decades for the post and pre -teatment for the rabies VIRUS vaccines is not OLD technology.Duck embroy vaccines is even older tehnology than the twenty year old cell technology for the rabies virus. BTW MED...a mini mansion is an oxymorron. like true lies RC [/QUOTE]It is far more complex to manufacture biological medications (for example, vaccines, antibodies) than it is to produce chemical medications (for example, penicillin or aspirin). In addition, certain vaccines are more complex to make than others. The bacteria that go into bacterial vaccines can be grown in simple laboratory cultures. In contrast, the growth of viruses requires living cells. Viruses cannot reproduce on their own. They require a living host in which to grow, such as chicken embryos, and cells from animals that are grown in culture. Vaccine manufacturers currently have few options for viral culture, because of valid pharmaceutical reasons and because of human safety concerns. For example, varicella (chickenpox) virus does not grow well in most cells derived from species other than humans. Also, human cells are preferred because cells derived from animal organs sometimes may carry animal viruses that could harm people. In the future it may be possible to prepare virus vaccines using molecular tools that do not require growing the virus in living cells. For example, today's hepatitis B vaccines are made using molecular tools that do not require animal cells at all. It is not possible to prepare most virus vaccines using these methods now, however. Human Fetal Diploid CellsHuman diploid cells are batches of human cells that are grown in a laboratory. Unlike cancer cells, they have the same number of chromosomes as normal human cells. Certain diploid cell strains are valuable in vaccine manufacture because these cells can be used for a very long period of time in the laboratory and are a reliable means by which many viruses that infect humans can be successfully and easily grown. Vaccines prepared in human diploid cells have proven to be very safe over the past several decades. Two different strains of human diploid cell cultures made from fetuses have been used extensively for vaccine production for decades. One was developed in the United States in 1961 (called WI-38) and the other in the United Kingdom in 1966 (called MRC-5). WI-38 came from lung cells from a female fetus of 3-months gestation and MRC-5 was developed from lung cells from a 14-week-old male fetus. Both fetuses were intentionally aborted, but neither was aborted for the purpose of obtaining diploid cells. (6-8). The fetal tissues that eventually became WI-38 and the MRC-5 cell cultures were removed from fetuses that were dead. The cellular biologists who made the cell cultures did not induce the abortions. These two cell strains have been growing under laboratory conditions for more than 35 years. The cells are merely the biological system in which the viruses are grown. These cell strains do not and cannot form a complete organism and do not constitute a potential human being. The cells reproduce themselves, so there is no need to abort additional fetuses to sustain the culture supply. Viruses are collected from the diploid cell cultures and then processed further to produce the vaccine itself. The WI-38 and MRC-5 cell cultures have been used to prepare hundreds of millions of doses of vaccines, preventing millions of cases of rubella, hepatitis A, varicella and rabies. . In the United States, only one of these diseases can be prevented with an FDA-licensed vaccine not grown in human diploid cells. This is the RabAvert brand of rabies vaccine manufactured by Chiron Corporation. (9) Some of the vaccines that are produced in human diploid cells might now be able to be prepared in alternative types of cell cultures. Some of these cell cultures were not available or were not considered suitable for use in vaccines when the original vaccines were developed. However, there is no guarantee that vaccines grown in these alternative cell lines would be as safe and effective as currently licensed vaccines and development is likely to be extremely costly. Thus, there is little incentive for vaccine manufacturers to develop and test new vaccines when an existing licensed vaccine is known to be both safe and effective. Rubella Vaccine VirusRubella virus causes a mild illness in most children, but may severely damage the developing fetus when a pregnant woman becomes infected. The virus that led to the only rubella vaccine available in the United States and that is widely used overseas (Meruvax II, Merck) came from tissues obtained at the time of an abortion performed on a rubella virus-infected mother. (1) The abortion was not conducted in order to isolate the virus, but rather because the mother and the fetus were infected with wild rubella virus that posed a risk of major birth defects. (2, 3) Since that wild strain of rubella virus (known as RA27/3) was isolated, it has been grown in human fetal diploid cells. There is no need to obtain additional cells from aborted fetuses to sustain the supply of attenuated rubella viruses used to manufacture additional batches of rubella vaccine for the future. During the development of the present rubella vaccine, cells from animals other than humans were also studied for vaccine manufacture but these proved to be less safe and/or less effective than the RA27/3 vaccine grown in WI-38 cells. Before widespread use of the rubella vaccine, there were hundreds of thousands of cases of rubella in the United States and more than 800 cases of congenital rubella per year. (4). As a consequence of the rubella epidemic of 1963-1964 it is estimated that there were 20,000 infants born with congenital defects, 6,250 spontaneous abortions and 5,000 induced abortions. (10) In 2001, CDC reported just 3 babies born with congenital rubella syndrome. (5) Thus, the RA27/3 rubella vaccine has prevented many thousands of spontaneous and induced abortions by protecting pregnant women from infection. (9). See this article (PDF 479 k) SummarySome vaccine components have been derived from human fetuses. The abortions were not conducted for the purpose of vaccine discovery or vaccine production. Additional abortions are not needed for the production of these vaccines. In the case of rubella vaccine, abortions are prevented by the use of the vaccine. A recent report from the Pontifical Academy for Life at the Vatican encourages pharmaceutical companies to seek alternatives to the development of vaccines linked with human fetuses, given the Catholic Church’s objections to cooperating with abortion. (11) The report also points out that in the absence of an alternative, these vaccines may be utilized “to avoid a serious risk not only for one’s own children but also, and more specifically, for the health conditions of the population as a whole – especially for pregnant women.†The Vatican Academy also noted that "the parents who did not accept the vaccination of their own children become responsible for the malformations [due to rubella infection] in question." References1. Perkins FT (1985). Licensed vaccines. Review of Infectious Diseases 7(Supplement 1):S73-6. 2. Plotkin SA, Farquhar JD, Katz M, Buser F (1968). Attenuation of RA27/3 rubella virus in WI 38 human diploid cells. American Journal of Diseases of Children 118:178-85. 3. Hayflick L, Plotkin S, Stevenson RE (1987). History of the acceptance of human diploid cell strains as substrates for human virus vaccine manufacture. Developmental Biology Standards 68:9-17. 4. CDC. Achievements in Public Health, 1900-1999: Impact of vaccines universally recommended for children – United States, 1900-1998. MMWR 1999; 48:243-248. 5. CDC. Summary of notifiable diseases – United States, 2001. MMWR 2003; 50(53): 3. 6. Hayflick L, Moorhead PS (1961). The serial cultivation of human diploid cell strains. Experimental Cell Research 25:585-621. 7. Hayflick L (1965). The limited in vitro lifetime of human diploid cell strains. Experimental Cell Research 37:614-36. 8. Jacobs JP, Jones CM, Baille JP (1970). Characteristics of a human diploid cell designated MRC-5. Nature 227:168-70. 9. Grabenstein JD. Moral Considerations with Certain Viral Vaccines. Christianity & Pharmacy 1999; 2(2):3-6 10. Plotkin SA, Reef S. Rubella Vaccine [Chapter 26]. In: Plotkin SA, Orenstein WA (Eds). Vaccines (4th Edition). Philadelphia, PA: W.B. Saunders Company, 2004. 11. Pontificial Academy of Life. Moral Reflections On Vaccines Prepared From Cells Derived From Aborted Human Foetuses. Vatican City: 2005 (English translation from the Italian). See also the response from the National Catholic Bioethics Center. comment: the company we have spoken has developed a more advance form of vaccine development. Originally, the target had been a location on the RNA which could not mutate, also a location which could produce a wide spectrum vaccine or even anti-viral.The company which I earlier posted and spoke to is using another approach. They have developed synthetic viruses which then can stimulate the titers we need of antibodies to provide human immunity against the virus. The advantage of this would be that you never could actually catch the disease. It would be impossible. However in our human trials we would need to test for allergic reactions to the particles used to stimulate the immune system. Since this company is not part of the big vaccine empire, it has been largely ignored in the development of an extremely safe vaccine. We had received and to be a sub manufacturer of the vaccine and there was a new process using a method for producing extremely large quantities of the vaccine. Since RC, being a certified head of a research company with Era commons and NIH, you are probably a principle investigator and have a great deal of experience in in the medical field you would like to start a dialogue. You don't know anything about me RC. Don't assume your continued repetitions of insults and obvious attacks are remotely related to my qualifications as a health professional researcher. When we say the new vaccine is probably dangerous and it has not been tested and it is irresponsible and dangerous to use it, we know what we are talking about. Do you? Med PI Medical Researcher - if you want to go tech on me R.C. give it your best shot. You can start by citing your qualifications and background in the medical field other than posting a blog in Canada adn a talk site. We have been working on securing a better lab site in New York for two years. We will be continuing research when everyone is holed up and the results from the untested vaccines start coming back. We would prefer to see the use of an artificial virus particle than a human baby fetus sometimes fairly far along in term. Perhaps if more people were familiar with the process, they would be less enthused about the vaccine. Feel free to engage me in a pure science exchange. I am much better at that than writing free association 3 a.m. musings. There is more to Med than you know..perhaps you should bring Albert in on this- he is fully informed of my credentials and experience- which you apparently are not. Medclinician |
||
reality check
Valued Member Joined: May 15 2007 Location: CANADA Status: Offline Points: 683 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Med....going off on a lecture about viruses does no cut it. First of all the rabies virus is a VIRUS not a bacteria so your first paragraph xplaining virus vs bacteria,,,production is well...secondly...you were talking about cell vaccines befor being "new" technology and unprovin....then you talk about cell vaccines for 30 plus years in your quotes above. ) RC
|
||
"tell med the grasshoppers won"
|
||
reality check
Valued Member Joined: May 15 2007 Location: CANADA Status: Offline Points: 683 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Well Med...this is the thing.......you do;t even know that rabies is a virus...not a bacteria.... and another thing ...when did I mention I was a CEO of some reserch company....get a grip.RC
Med PI Medical Researcher - if you want to go tech on me R.C. give it your best shot. You can start by citing your qualifications and background in the medical field other than posting a blog in Canada adn a talk site. We have been working on securing a better lab site in New York for two years. We will be continuing research when everyone is holed up and the results from the untested vaccines start coming back. We would prefer to see the use of an artificial virus particle than a human baby fetus sometimes fairly far along in term. Perhaps if more people were familiar with the process, they would be less enthused about the vaccine. Feel free to engage me in a pure science exchange. I am much better at that than writing free association 3 a.m. musings. There is more to Med than you know..perhaps you should bring Albert in on this- he is fully informed of my credentials and experience- which you apparently are not. Medclinician [/QUOTE] |
||
"tell med the grasshoppers won"
|
||
Medclinician
V.I.P. Member Valued Member Since 2006 Joined: July 08 2009 Status: Offline Points: 23322 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
You are not addressing either the synthetically produced particle vaccine, the use of embryonic tissue, or the serious lack of human testing. Since you are obviously privy to more than 30 companies now actively developing these vaccines and their new variations using the cell technology as well completely avoiding the fetus connect origin you continue to comment and have still not answered my question. What are your credentials, experience, and are you a health professional of any kind other than working ruin credibility as possibly an employee of a government agency assigned to do so. Pretty simple. What are your qualifications. Have you turned them into Albert? If you are to speak with an authoritive voice to a researcher, are you one? This has been a consistent theme. Personal, attacks, name calling, and now we are in serious territory lives are stake here. Millions. I answered you concerning some facets of the technology and its origin. It you want specific application technology which is proprietary to drug companies, that would be a little difficult. Now I am asking you about an alternate method which is much safer and has been ignored. Why not use it? Why not funnel the earmarked legislation funds to private interest companies in a truly innovative technology? Noticing the title of this thread- it is basically that those of us who are scientists or develop technology may be a serious bump in the road when opposing PR pseudo-science with serious and logical concern with the use of an untested vaccine. This extends to the rewording of health care methods and realities which many of us have dealt with for decades and despite clever wording bring battle field triaging into or health system. This is basically dismantling humanitarin considerations and converting those to dollar efficiency. Yes, people want a comprehensive good health care plan. In light of our presence financial situation, we cannot provide that without finding other sources of funding or by taxing the middle class, Early on it was determined and commented on that health care is one of the highest price items in our budget. It is the eternal struggle between the scientists and the politicians, and hiring scientists and creating studies to support unrealistic approaches. It might be noted several in the legislature are trying, and with great effort, to fix the mess they were handed into a realistic doable piece of legislation. No easy feat. Med |
||
reality check
Valued Member Joined: May 15 2007 Location: CANADA Status: Offline Points: 683 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Listen Med....I don't need to quote DR's for the stars in a feeble attempt of appeal to authority.I also don/t need A to show me where the bear ....in the buckwheat. Lets start with the basics....baterium,viruses and parasites of my.....RC Spare me your scoolyard chalenges ...I Know What I know which is none of your business...you missed the clue several days ago.
|
||
"tell med the grasshoppers won"
|
||
Medclinician
V.I.P. Member Valued Member Since 2006 Joined: July 08 2009 Status: Offline Points: 23322 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I think the clue you have missed is that in certain areas of this no one is certain. For the third time you totally evaded providing any credentials or support for your knowledge in this field. Even Michael's group in Minnesota have the good sense to admit what they do not know. Personally we have been at this since Watson and Crick- and one their team members were telling us the what for you have evaded the use an alternate vaccine, the use of alternate technology, the issue of the the use of an embryonic culture, and will not address anything directly. This site has a lot of members who it makes no sense why they are here. They are observers. They cannot be deleted. Why can't you address the thread topic at all? Are you on the list or are you one of the ones who made it? Med |
||
newgirl
Valued Member Joined: July 15 2009 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 111 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
You guys are supposed to be playing nice... just a friendly reminder.
Anyway, on topic: so I was skimming the last page or so about vaccines and them not being tested, etc. etc. and the following thought popped into my mind (yes, even I have "conspiracy" "what if" type moments): What if the reason they aren't worried about testing the vaccines before sticking people is because they (whoever "they" are) have already tested them? .... like, as in, it was part of the planning before the virus was introduced. It would be logical to have a safety net in place, wouldn't it? |
||
Medclinician
V.I.P. Member Valued Member Since 2006 Joined: July 08 2009 Status: Offline Points: 23322 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I know newgirl- we are nipping back and forth. But for the most part it is typical peer group review med techie nipping- and is part of the world of research. Whenever you publish- you prepare to get eaten alive. To really test - human test takes time. Not only time- but numbers. Not only numbers but a true double blind placebo and also wide spectrum sample group of people. This is not being done. I don't think they could have already tested it, because some groups have barely sequenced it and not knowing what to sequence for - i.e. you can't really use the two in California now because it has changed. You would maybe get some success- but better to use something fresh as in after Australia and South America. We were trying to work with one doctor who had to go through the hoops for human trials in some ultrasound work, and it took him years to get it through. In .gov we can fastrack- and then they shift the trials down to India-since they could never - (well except for the 3 yesterday in Seattle- trying to figure how they pulled that one off) get anyone sane to inject this into children without more testing. Being brief, as a courtesy, to save you all eye mileage- my points are pretty darn solid. In a debate they would be irrefutable. There has not been due dilgence done here to protect the public from what could bad side effects with justifying the haste with large scary death tolls. It smells of money. Med |
||
mrmouse
V.I.P. Member Joined: April 24 2009 Status: Offline Points: 2225 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
What do you guys think of Gerald Celente? I've been listening to him for about nine months now, and I have to say his claims seem to be on the mark!
Part One: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MMX3SKzrfU&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abovetopsecret.com%2Fforum%2Fthread490011%2Fpg1&feature=player_embedded Part Two: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy9bfw1ebgw&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abovetopsecret.com%2Fforum%2Fthread490011%2Fpg1&feature=player_embedded |
||
Johnray1
Valued Member Joined: April 23 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8159 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Medcinian,I do not know RC is and I do not want to know,I never thought that I would say this on a board that is suppose to free expression of ideas.But,in my opinion,RC NEEDS TO GO.We need the free exchange of ideas and knowlegde,even we are wrong about something,we need to learn that also.But someone who is just here to be a smartass,NEEDS TO GO.Johnray1
|
||
reality check
Valued Member Joined: May 15 2007 Location: CANADA Status: Offline Points: 683 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Pretty harsh johnray...why don't you read what I said and then have one of your famous toddys....RC
|
||
"tell med the grasshoppers won"
|
||
Mary008
V.I.P. Member Joined: June 22 2009 Status: Offline Points: 5769 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Why not funnel the earmarked legislation funds to private interest companies in a truly innovative technology?
.........................................................
This is my biggest beef.... I know Influenza Vacs make millions for Big Pharma (little Pharma) ... I want to see the Govt. toss more money at the new Tech for the Vac that is a one time deal against Influenza... they say it will take 5 yrs. I used to find info on it.
I may be in one of my threads? i am too ill to look hope someone can get info on the new Vac. Thanks...
went to Doc today... I have a virus... no sustained headache or temp... I'm back to the sofa and the comedys.
Had to whisper today... cat thinks I am nuts and follows me everywhere.
Real... what I don't understand is... why don't you want positive attention?
and if y'all have so much time... please find that info on the one time flu vac for me...
I see RC is in Canada... what I wouldn't give for a cold Spruce beer :)
|
||
Turboguy
Admin Group Joined: October 27 2007 Status: Offline Points: 6079 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
HIJACKED!
I never thought a good ol' political thread would be hijacked the other way, but damn! Here we are!
|
||
Post Reply | |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You can vote in polls in this forum |