Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk |
Old Lives Matter (Too) ! |
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Dutch Josh
Adviser Group Joined: May 01 2013 Location: Arnhem-Netherla Status: Offline Points: 95777 |
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Posted: June 05 2020 at 7:05am |
DJ-It is good there is action against police violence against "black people". Racism is damaging our society. But most old people are not able to defend themselves-especialy during this corona-crisis. Politics expect them "to stay at home" or in carecenters-in endless self-isolation. Not only in NL-but worldwide minorities, including "black people" and old people have to pay a high price for inaction by governments. While travel, restaurants reopen old people are supposed to still self isolate. Also people with chronic health problems are supposed to give up basic freedoms. In an emergency I think it is reasonable-for some time-to ask for some extra caution. But self-isolation for months is asking to much ! People of age, people with chronic health issues see basic right being violated. The balance is missing. How do people on this forum-some not that young-think of this ? Time to start an AFT-global initiative ? |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Technophobe
Assistant Admin Joined: January 16 2014 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 88450 |
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How do I feel? Betrayed! |
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How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving. |
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Dutch Josh
Adviser Group Joined: May 01 2013 Location: Arnhem-Netherla Status: Offline Points: 95777 |
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[url]https://www.zerohedge.com/political/new-york-cops-suspended-after-shoving-75-year-old-man-ground-viral-video[/url] DJ-Not only "black people" are treated as "second class", [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Untermensch[/url] also the old are quite often seen by politics as costly, expendable, "in the way". There is an overlap-and with that a common opponent. [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqfFrCUrEbY[/url] |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein |
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EdwinSm,
Moderator Joined: April 03 2013 Status: Offline Points: 24065 |
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One of the issues for older folk is dementia.... I posted about how many more deaths were recorded in this category, in the UK, in this thread: https://www.avianflutalk.com/dementia-during-time-of-corvid19_topic42892.html This was one group of vulnerable old people that has been hard hit (in terms of excess deaths). The number of deaths due to dementia but without corvid19 doubled in the pandemic weeks compared to average years. It is too early to tell if this was due to them being left in the care homes when a trip to hospital might have saved their lives. |
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Dutch Josh
Adviser Group Joined: May 01 2013 Location: Arnhem-Netherla Status: Offline Points: 95777 |
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The number of peope dying in care centers in the western world are extreme. Often HCW even with symptoms-without testing or PPE were told to "do their job". In a lot of countries deaths from carecenters seem to fall out of the Covid19 statistics-some of the death do not even get tested for Covid19. I (DJ) can not help getting very cynical on "how civilized countries deal with the old and chronically ill". They are put in isolation without the needed protection. Also relative healthy old people are sometimes forced into isolation: |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein |
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KiwiMum
Chief Moderator Joined: May 29 2013 Status: Offline Points: 29680 |
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We've had a total of 22 deaths in NZ and almost all of them have been elderly people and 10 of them were from the same dementia unit in Christchurch. When the first one was diagnosed, they were all moved to Burwood hospital as a precaution, and even with the round the clock care, still 10 of them succumbed. They were in expert hands from the moment they were diagnosed and still they died. It appears that elderly people with dementia are particularly vulnerable. |
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Those who got it wrong, for whatever reason, may feel defensive and retrench into a position that doesn’t accord with the facts.
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EdwinSm,
Moderator Joined: April 03 2013 Status: Offline Points: 24065 |
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Thanks for that reply KiwiMum. It looks as if everything NZ did was right by the people [well done NZ ] but they still died. So that does not seem to be a set of deaths that can be attributed to society bias. Maybe the blame could be down to poor health condition especially if they were near the end of life. I am on a forum that deals with a type of dementia that often leads to behavioural problems, such as uncontrolled eat of sweats, or general apathy that can lead to sleeping 20 or so hours a day, or lack of interest in basic hygiene. I can see how these behaviours could lead to extra problems when Corvid is thrown into the mix. |
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EdwinSm,
Moderator Joined: April 03 2013 Status: Offline Points: 24065 |
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The BBC reported on: Coronavirus: Care home residents face steep hike in fees In some cases fees rising by 15%. |
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EdwinSm,
Moderator Joined: April 03 2013 Status: Offline Points: 24065 |
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This will be interesting to follow, as it involves the pressure put on care homes to take back patients with corvid-19 so hospital beds could be freed.
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Dutch Josh
Adviser Group Joined: May 01 2013 Location: Arnhem-Netherla Status: Offline Points: 95777 |
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EdwinSM-good people are taking legal steps. Old people in nursing homes/care centers are often defenseless-easy prey. Here in NL things are not much better; [url]https://nltimes.nl/2020/06/10/nl-scaled-coronavirus-testing-faster-saved-lives-report[/url] ; In my opinion criminal neglect-hope some legel steps will be taken. at present our government claims to be doing a good job-while they mismanaged the outbreak from the beginning-even exporting PPE to China in february. Despite the government repeatedly saying in debates, briefings, interviews and press conferences that there was insufficient coronavirus testing capacity in the Netherlands due to a lack of materials, laboratories had many more tests than were used in the first two months of the crisis, according to research by Nieuwsuur. If more tests had been done, lives could have been saved, those involved said to the program. Nieuwsuur asked all 55 RIVM approved laboratories about their coronavirus testing capacity in March and April. More than 30 responded. Data provided by the labs showed that only half of the available tests were used in March, and only 30 percent in April. A number of laboratories told Nieuwsuur that they don't understand why they weren't deployed. "I always thought 'use us now'," said Esther Talboom, director of laboratory Saltro in Utrecht. "Because we are there, we are doing tests, we have a logistics network with normally 200 locations and we visit people at home and all vulnerable patients. Give us a role." - Healthcare administrators have been confused for months about why more healthcare personnel couldn't be tested while tests were available at laboratories. "This is not hindsight," Peter Hoppener of Noord-Brabant care organization Vivent said to the program. "The capacity of the laboratories was known." According to him, the surprise was not that there were tests available, but that they couldn't be used. "And the fact that corona actually occurs in nursing homes and in community nursing was already known too. And those two things together plus deliberately not testing nursing home staff, I find that scandalous." The consequences for healthcare organizations are huge, Hoppener said. Due to little testing, it was often not clear whether a ward or nursing home had an infected resident who needed to be isolated. "If you had done enough tests, you could have nursed people individually. Now you actually condemned a department to corona at such a moment," he said. The lack of testing also put stress on healthcare workers, who were unsure about whether there was corona on their ward, he said. "More testing could have prevented infections in our homes. And thus also deaths." Hoppener eventually bought tests directly from a lab for his own employees. |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein |
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EdwinSm,
Moderator Joined: April 03 2013 Status: Offline Points: 24065 |
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For me the legal case in England revolves around how one treats infectious diseases. It may well be true that some of the old people that were sent back to care homes may not need to have nursing care at the hospital level, but they were still carrying an infectious disease. Any infectious disease doctor should have been able to tell you that it was not a good move to send people who were still infected to care homes. So much for the government's claim to have ring fenced the old and vulnerable. What might have been best, to protect both the care homes and to free up hospital beds, would have been to have a designated rehabilitation home, with less nursing staff, to care for people until the virus was cleared from their system. Maybe there will be time to lay plans for this before the virus sweeps around again. |
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Dutch Josh
Adviser Group Joined: May 01 2013 Location: Arnhem-Netherla Status: Offline Points: 95777 |
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[url]https://www.gelderlander.nl/arnhem/92-jarige-arnhemmer-in-hongerstaking-zijn-eis-meer-bezoek-op-vaderdag~ae2d2f60/[/url] In local news a 92 y/o man goes on a one day hungerstrike demanding more visitors on fathersday-tomorrow-sunday in his carecenter. He is only allowed to have one visitor-one hour per week. A nursing home in Amsterdam has agreed to give its residents more freedom after the families threatened a court case for ‘violating’ their fundamental human rights. Human rights lawyer Liesbeth Zegveld told DutchNews.nl that the Amsta care home organisation has agreed to all of the access demands of families whose loved ones are at the Vondelstede home in Amsterdam. Meanwhile Zegveld and fellow lawyer Elles ten Vergert have threatened to take the Dutch government to court if it does not properly respect the freedoms of care home residents in its emergency rules to limit the spread of the coronavirus. ‘We have reduced people to objects in these homes and apparently it is very difficult to go back to a situation where we see them again as human beings with the same rights,’ Zegveld told DutchNews.nl. ‘Other liberties can be aligned with the right to good health: it is very possible.’ Rights She told the Nieuwsuur television programme that it is a question of fundamental human rights: people’s freedom to leave, the right to a family life, privacy, and the right to be fairly and humanely treated. Zegveld represents the client board of the Vondelstede home in Amsterdam, who have relatives living there, but have been concerned about limits to visits and restrictions on residents’ freedom of movement. Since then, relatives from at least three other care homes have asked Zegveld to represent them too. |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein |
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EdwinSm,
Moderator Joined: April 03 2013 Status: Offline Points: 24065 |
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One explanation for action that lead to a lot of deaths in care homes. This virus behaved like no other coronavirus. This news is from the UK.
I suppose the surprise element lead of a lot of the early deaths in care homes. At least we know now, and it should not be repeated |
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