Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk |
Bush trying to establish martial law before H2H2H |
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Scotty
Adviser Group Joined: March 06 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 846 |
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I did not think it was either necessary or pertinent to discuss my enthusiasm, or lack of it, for what I regard as an inevitable event.
If someone would like to discuss the alternative, a hundred million people dispersing into rural areas with no means of feeding themselves then I'm sure it would be very entertaining debate. Where, for instance, would they go? Where would they build their makeshift homes and from what would they build them. From whom would they obtain their food and water. What would they do with fifty million abandoned vehicles? What would be the impact upon farming efficiency and food production? |
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VtDoc
Adviser Group Joined: March 31 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 240 |
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I have repeatedly seen posters make references to Executive Orders that supposedly give all sorts of powers to the executive branch. Yet, when I read the Orders I do not see this at all. The orders are structured very similarly, and what they do is authorize/require the appropriate cabinet department to make plans and recommendations.
As an example, take EO 11000 that supposedly allows "all civilians" to be "used for work under federal supervision." What the order says is that:
"The secretary of labor... shall...develop plans and issue guidance...to utilize to the maximum extent civilian manpower resources..." "Such plans shall include, but not necessarily be limited to...recruitment..."
"Secretary shall be prepared to implement all appropriate plans developed under this order"
Similar language is used in other orders where assets are supposedly "seized" by the government.
So, as far as I can see, the orders are only a requirement for other government agencies to make plans for the future. It's quite possible that the actual plans themselves have provisions for conscription, asset seizure, etc, but the orders themselves absolutely do not say that.
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TrishaA
Adviser Group Joined: May 15 2006 Status: Offline Points: 55 |
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I, like everyone else, saw the hoodlums breaking down doors , throwing fireballs through windows and stealing right out in the open. I live in a city outside of NYC. There are plenty of " hoodlums " around here. It's a little different then being tucked away in rural America. If you're afraid of being invaded, how should I feel. I'd welcome Help from the young men and women who make up our national guard, unless of course you can suggest someone else I might call to help protect my family. There's just so many people I can shoot.
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looking for blue skies in a dust storm
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There is no way I would stay in a city, relying on the the government to take care of my family and myself. If the *hit hits the fan, than good luck to those that will be staying in the cities waiting on the state or federal government to provide, food, water and protection from those elements that would be more than willing to kill you and your family to take what you have.
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Those of you in the rural areas, keep in mind that there is safety in numbers. Gather your friends and create a protective compound if your afraid the city folk will be coming. It would only take a few warning shots to make someone leave and find a neighbor who is less vigilant. Than again it would be an act of kindness to open your door and help those less fortunate but you only have so many supplies.
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MelodyAtHome
Valued Member Joined: May 16 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2018 |
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We are lucky here...we basically live in a compound so to speak. My mother is next door(youngest brother 36 will be there) my brother who is an RN next door with his wife, and my other brother (physical therapist)next to him with wife and baby...my sister and her 9 kids, hubby on another 10 acres...40 acres total...the men are great shots and we women are learning
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Melody
Emergency Preparedness 911 http://emergencypreparedness911.blogspot.com/ |
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Bush is the Pres, not Clinton.
If you wish to change the subject then you should start a new thrread. A new topic or thread will not change the facct tha Bush is a pathetic loser. Got It ????????? |
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Diode - If you look up any of the Executive Orders, you may find an entirely different list of directives from the ones you posted. For example, under Executive Order 11490, you will find that the CONGRESS in addition to the president passed this in 1969, citing that it had been government policy for 20 years prior to 1969. It asks that each branch of government from commerce to agriculture to defense to education (etc, etc) be responsible for creating plans to deal with disruptions caused by a national emergency. I don't know where you are getting your information on Martial Law, but it's obvious that they have an agenda. The beauty of our system is the FACT that NO president can act without the consent of publicly elected respresentatives. To hold ANY president responsible for wars, natural disasters, and particularly IMAGINED FUTURE CRISES is, in my opinion, totally absurd.
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I do not believe that it is the proper TIME to be discussing or making a decision regarding MARTIAL LAW. If there comes a time, and it is necessary and appropriate, then we would have no choice but to accept it. However, at this time, there is no reason to make that decision and ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to give that POWER TO THIS PRESIDENT!!
I could be wrong, but I don't believe that martial law was in effect in New Orleans. I believe that they were National Guardsmen..and if they were military..then they were not there to enforce law..they were there to help with rescue. I didn't see anyone arrested by the guardsmen, or the military during the New Orleans disaster.
I don't believe that it was martial law since it remains illegal at this time and has been for some time. That is WHY President Bush has opened that discussion now, to my understanding. PEOPLE, THERE IS A REASON WHY MARTIAL LAW WAS OUTLAWED!!!
I don't know about you but it scares the heck out of me.. Especially after having read that military recruited and accepted many young men who did not pass the mental evaluation. I certainly do not want one or a few of those military men roaming around in my neighborhood..around my children. Definently a very BAD IDEA.
Just my two cents worth. I hope that congress will do the right thing and not rubber stamp this one. They need to wait until there are no other options. Thanks. Peace.
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Ordog
Valued Member Joined: May 19 2006 Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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Look at history. Just last night on
history Channel there was a show about the Union Prison Camp in
Chicago, IL. The commander “uncovered” a "plot" by
normal people to attack the well armed camp, and he declared martial
law in Chicago. Although it was not legal, he had the guns, eh?
Normal people were arrested and thrown into dungeons (yes they were
dungeons and called such) in a death camp because they did such
things as saying that dungeons weren't a way to keep people locked up
in the USA. I agree that our best qualified troops are overseas and likeley to stay there, and that there are serious standards problems right now in the military. I personally know of the Army keeping a mentally unstable clown despite him going AWOL, committing various (serious) offenses, etc. Back even a few years ago at least they would have sent him home, probably would have made him stay for a bit in a stockade before they did so, too. I'd rather be alone in Iraq than have him "watching my back". That said, I doubt you'll have nationwide martial law, Mt.Weather taking over, and TEOTWAWKI. And in some places, LA for instance, I'd imagine people would beg for martial law if disruptions in law enforcement reach projected levels... decsions decsions.... ill prepared troops, or roving bands of thugs. I also think it is reasonable that a dispruption in law enforcement would embolden any terror cells among us, Arab, homegrown, or otherwise, we have plenty. |
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Oisanatta
V.I.P. Member Joined: May 08 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 308 |
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For what it is worth, and I'll have to write up full my notes from my city's town hall meeting yesterday re BF, but they stated that the city council was working on the re-wording of an existing ordinance that would give the city officials the authority to enforce what they called "social distancing"....it sounded better than "isolation" and/or "quarantine"....but in essence, they said that should BF hit, the city would reserve the right to shut down social events, schools, etc, etc!
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The only thing worse than a brutal lie is the brutal truth. (M Twain) I waited patiently for the LORD; He turned to me and heard my cry. He lifted me out of the pit; He set my feet on a rock. Psalm40
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Mass disaster drill tests STORY AND PHOTO BY SGT. JACOB BOYER Terrorist attacks, hurricanes, pandemic influenza and plague are all threats that could potentially cripple parts of the United States on their own. However, if more than one of these disasters occurs simultaneously, resources could be stretched thin on a national level, and command and control over disaster-relief assets would be key in ensuring Americans receive the help they need. |
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Linda
V.I.P. Member Joined: April 02 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 265 |
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I would very much like for someone to explain the differences between existing law and what this administration is proposing to do. If it had always been policy...and that policy was put to paper in 1969...and we already have things in place to make sure that peace can be kept...then what is it they are wanting to change? Oisanatta....Social distancing...is very diferent than isolation and quarenteen..that is why they are using those words. It woukd be very important to not allow people to congregate during a pandemic...churches, schools, sports events etc...would all have to be closed for this. I think it's great that your community is discussing and planning for these things now. |
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Insanity is making the same mistakes and expecting different results....therefore...Those who don't learn from history are bound to go insane.
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klavawithcin
V.I.P. Member Joined: May 24 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 54 |
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"
Martial law is defined as: military rule or authority imposed on a civilian population when the civil authorities cannot maintain law and order, as in a time of war or during an emergency. " As I understand this a great deal of 'out of control' behaviour must be happening...
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Oisanatta
V.I.P. Member Joined: May 08 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 308 |
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Hi, Linda. Yes, it is good to have seen the mayor and health dept and emergency management folks at a meeting that was designed specifically to visit with the city's population....unfortunately, out of 240,000+ residents, there were only 50+ in attendance...not well announced beforehand...only 1 posting in the newspaper about a week prior to the meeting. But it was better than nothing. And, yes, understandable on the difference between the terms. Thanks for the reply! |
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The only thing worse than a brutal lie is the brutal truth. (M Twain) I waited patiently for the LORD; He turned to me and heard my cry. He lifted me out of the pit; He set my feet on a rock. Psalm40
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Funny ... when I was speaking with our county Pandemic Prep. official he called it 'self imposed curfew'!
social distancing \_____
isolation _____ = Quarantine
self imposed curfew /
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Oisanatta
V.I.P. Member Joined: May 08 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 308 |
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Hahh! |
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The only thing worse than a brutal lie is the brutal truth. (M Twain) I waited patiently for the LORD; He turned to me and heard my cry. He lifted me out of the pit; He set my feet on a rock. Psalm40
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[QUOTE=Linda]
I would very much like for someone to explain the differences between existing law and what this administration is proposing to do. If it had always been policy...and that policy was put to paper in 1969...and we already have things in place to make sure that peace can be kept...then what is it they are wanting to change? The National Pandemic Plan doesn't change any laws - it's a plan that lays out the responsibilities of the state, local, and federal government, business, health care, and individual citizens in preparing for a pandemic. It talks about vaccines, testing, wildlife and livestock surveillance, disruptions in business/supplies, surges in health care, essentially everything we talk about on this forum. The military is available to be called upon for support when there are breakdowns in delivery, health care, and presumably law and order that can't be handled on a state or community level.
The whole martial law/police state scenario has been touted by lots of individuals for YEARS, not just in Bush's administration, and usually goes hand in hand with other conspiracy theories (such as 9/11 being an inside job). Just google "martial law" and you'll be surprised by how much of this is floating around. One site claimed that the "elite establishment" has "underpinnings with the occult and satanism". Apparently, there's a website for any brand of propaganda you can think of.
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i don't see how we can have any semblance of a society without stricter controls on panicked people.
Those controls, borders, fences, military personnel, etc may some day be used against us but, for this particular crisis, they may be necessary to control those who cannot keep the best interests of our society in mind. |
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ShaRenKa
Valued Member Joined: May 17 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 301 |
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Bleva...Very Well said!
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Sha Ren Ka
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ShaRenKa
Valued Member Joined: May 17 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 301 |
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FluPrepper, wow...great article. I find it odd though, My son is a SGT in the Marines in NC..he has heard absolutely nothing on the BF ever!
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Sha Ren Ka
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ShaRenKa
Valued Member Joined: May 17 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 301 |
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Thats not the problem Standingfirm;( Yes, we will definately need military support if this hits the US as badly as some forsee it. BUT! The trouble lies After its all said and done. I fear those rights may be forever lost. Easy to put into place, but the gov't has not been so on the up and up when it comes to their word.
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Sha Ren Ka
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ROSEBGOOD
Experienced Member Joined: May 17 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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This news is dated October 2005. Do you know if it was approved?
Rose
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Rose
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Think Katrina and what happened there - BIG MISTAKES MADE. The reason the President has a plan is to avoid NOT having a plan...I don't believe there is any big agenda here. To avoid looting and people's businesses being distroyed or robbed blind, Marshal Law will have to be invoked. If you are a law abiding citizen this should not bother you too much - it's temporary and will be neccessary because of those who ARE NOT law abiding citizens.
Remember, workers repairing the levies being shot at. Women being raped. People's businesses destroyed and robbed (not food and water or other survival needs; electronics, TV's, stores burned to the ground for no reason at all) Some people helped during the disaster, others made it worse. The same will happen during a pandemic when things are not 'norm'. Just obey the law, our government, the military and work together vs. being offended and you and your families will be OK.
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Scotty
Adviser Group Joined: March 06 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 846 |
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The primary duty of any government is the defence of the nation. This does not necessarily mean defence of the people who are currently living in that nation. It means defence of everything, now, and for future generations to come.
Cities will be sealed off as part of a strategy to defend the nation. If there is any SPARE manpower then it might be used to help those city dwellers trapped within the cordon but this is a secondary issue. Enforcing Martial Law may require more troops than are available. If this is the case then troops will simply patrol the city perimeters. Any debate about terminology or legality is interesting but will not influence events on the ground. It is neither fair nor valid to blame a particular government or worse, any one individual, for enacting a strategy that has no viable alternative. If this strategy proves to be necessary then the very last thing any of us want is for much needed manpower to be tied up dealing with a few crazy individuals who are "defending their rights" when it could be better employed helping those in dire need of food and medical assistance. |
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klavawithcin
V.I.P. Member Joined: May 24 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 54 |
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What you said, Nikita. What ever your feeling about the current adm. if a reasonable sense of right and wrong guides you, you should be okay. I for one don't appreciate the diversionary tactics by those that will cause delay, problems and cost lives by making themselves a problem to be dealt with before the help chain can reach to them and their neighbors.
JMO
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Kona
Valued Member Joined: May 20 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1 |
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Most states have defense forces. They would have to be used IF martial law was imposed. At least with the level of deployment abroad.
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Kona
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