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PANDEMIC ALERT LEVEL
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Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk

Canada Bird flu

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Oisanatta View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oisanatta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2006 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by medclinician medclinician wrote:

Originally posted by ops144 ops144 wrote:

but why is everything "cause for concern"
 
ive not read one bit of good info from this good doctor?


I would comment that we need in all incidents to consider a broad spectrum of sources before we make any preliminary conclusions. There is an interesting term I have heard Ops, which I think is fairly significant in posts as wells as sites - that is spin.  I assume spin meaning how information fits into a particular person's over all viewpoint.

It is wise to consider both ends of the spectrum. Example being a famous archeologist who had a particular formula on the pyramids in Egypt. It seemed to fit perfectly except for this one corner of several stone blocks on one face of the pyramid. They found him at midnight, by kerosene lamp, chipping away at the stone blocks with a pick axe, to make the blocks the right size to make his formula correct.

There are numerous physicians here, and some of the most qualified are the most conservative. If there are not clear negative results on Avian tests, then you begin to get nebulous explanations, and at the same time, this must be given a little credibility. Things are not always as bad as they look and often there are non-sensationalist explanations which may account for some "outbreaks."

There are numerous reports and data on Candian birds with less virulent Avian. As yet, (and time may prove otherwise) we do not have a confirmed instance of virulent Avian here in Canada.

Low path Avian can take out birds and people. Low path Avian is endogenous in some populations. Low path Avian could mutate to a more virulent form and cause a worldwide Pandemic. Could. Hasn't yet. But could.

I appreciate the "skeptics" here who do not fuel the fire and are not afraid to speak up and state what is obvious; insufficient data.

However, in closing, I will repeat, America's top agency doctors and disease control organizations are not alarmists. In fact, they are quite the opposite. You can rely on the fact, that if they are going to say "not if but when" this is  saying - we are due for an Avian epidemic. You should consider, however conservative, the huge amount of real data and sometimes sensitive information behind this statement and it is serious.

Dozens of times I have had to step back from some of these reports and say - okay - there is not enough data here to confirm this and it would be pure speculation to go out on the limb and assume there is some sort of coverup. We need to wait for more information.

Let's keep on eye on the test results. Let's really keep on eye for human H5N1 cases in Canada. And beyond that, when we have human transmisssion in those cases, it's time to put a human flag in Canada.



Thank you, medclinician.  There is a fine line (sometimes) between questioning the facts and being an alarmist.  I like that latter term, but all too often there are alarmist posts.  So at times I do the same as with a tv or radio station, and turn away from the posts for a mental health break.

Fortunately we have freedom of speech, but sometimes it gets a bit hairy with the alarmist stuff.

Great commentary, medclinician.

The only thing worse than a brutal lie is the brutal truth. (M Twain) I waited patiently for the LORD; He turned to me and heard my cry. He lifted me out of the pit; He set my feet on a rock. Psalm40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oisanatta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2006 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by Cygnet Cygnet wrote:

I think folks are seeing a conspiracy in Canada when there probably isn't one. From the standpoint of a poultry breeder, I can tell you everything they've said makes sense, is plausible, and is MORE possible than H5N1. There's nothing here that raises any alarm bells with me.

I'm cynical about how long it will be until H5N1 gets here. However, I don't think, based on the information they've presented, that this is anything other than a goose that had a low-level infection with a low path avian flu (probably very common in free range birds) and which died of something else. Very plausible. I'd love to see someone do a survey of backyard poultry to determine the percentage that have been exposed to low path AI; it's probably a significant percentage.

If the bird had died of high path AI, they would have been able to detect virus and the clinical signs would have been obvious on necropsy. However, infection with low path AI often results in a bird which is a "carrier" even after it recovers and which will always shed a few virii. It's entirely possible and probable the bird died of something else.

Birds DIE. What folks who don't raise them don't realize is that it's NOT uncommon to have a bird or two (or four) suddenly drop dead. You may never know exactly why (even if you submit the birds for necropsy) and there's lots of things that will kill free range fowl including a fairly large number of diseases that are NOT zoonotic. As I've mentioned before, it's the time of year for fowl cholera -- which WOULD kill numbers of the geese and leave the chickens unaffected!

Leva

Cygnet, thank you for your calm level-headedness.  The comments I posted for medclinician are appropriate for what you are saying also.

Thank you again!

The only thing worse than a brutal lie is the brutal truth. (M Twain) I waited patiently for the LORD; He turned to me and heard my cry. He lifted me out of the pit; He set my feet on a rock. Psalm40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2006 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by Jhetta Jhetta wrote:


  1. Should U.S. tests ever discover H5N1, the Iowa laboratory would notify USDA in Washington and USDA would then inform the World Organization for Animal Health in Paris.



Should Avian test positive in the secondary labs where the Alaskan samples have been sent, there is already in place a protocol for action to be taken, including forwarding of information to Homeland Security, movement of key personnel to specific locations, and a rather extensive set of preparations, movement of Tamiflu stocks, assignment of key innoculation locations, transfer (security sensitive) of materials to sites before disclosing location of sites, and an effort to implement a coordinated release of information to the American people, set up massive net sources of information as well as media releases.

Some preparations for biopreparedness have been in place for more than three years and special protocols and action plans have existed. Beginning in the early part of 2006, heads of state (governors) have drawn many specific action plans for Avian.

One is in place for West Virginia.

http://www.wvflu.org/summit_summary.asp

To the best of our ability, West Virginia, is prepared and ready for an Avian Infuenza Pandemic.  For more information search for local health departments in Charleston, main counties in WV. There is a special group of health professionals now available and on call for community and state response.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2006 at 12:26am
medclinician - ditto for me on saying thanks for the level-headed post.  There's a difference between asking hard questions and already deciding what the answer is.  Nonetheless, I'm suspicious in this case and others where there hasn't been full disclosure.  I don't necessarily suspect that they are hiding a case of high-path H5N1 - but I do suspect that they are putting out alot of spin instead of giving us the only thing we'd really like: the facts.  I can understand the confusion on cases coming out of Indonesia.  I didn't expect it from Canada.  Likewise, if I see comments like this from US experts, it would disturb me.  If they blew the test, fine.  If they don't have a good enough sample, no problem.  But they didn't stop there - first they said the samples may have degraded and then later added that if it were H5N1, it wouldn't have degraded because it has "a relatively long life span."  They also say that it was "probably a low-path" virus (which kills overnight with organ damage?) and there was probably just a LITTLE of the virus (hence a slight H5 reading).  And they tell us that it couldn't be H5N1 because the chickens weren't dead.  I just can't imagine any intelligent person thinking "Oh, OK, that's good enough for me." These are our scientific experts - so where's the science?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2006 at 12:38am
it will get to the americas eventually but the people in Nth america dont live in close proximity to fowl like the asians and africans etc so dont sweat it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bellabecky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2006 at 12:50am
A person I know works for a "Health Care Giant", hospitals, clinics, pharmacies, transplant facilities, etc. And is an important part of their operations. This persons sister is a Health Care Provider with the same Organization. So far there is not a plan. Supposedly this Org. is working closely with the CDC for the detection of H2H transmission. I don't know...either it should be comforting or even more scary?? Personally I think one of them would be being told to start gearing up if it was close or imminent. But it seems to be business as usual. Who knows?
    
    
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2006 at 3:38am
Originally posted by bellabecky bellabecky wrote:

A person I know works for a "Health Care Giant", hospitals, clinics, pharmacies, transplant facilities, etc. And is an important part of their operations. This persons sister is a Health Care Provider with the same Organization. So far there is not a plan. Supposedly this Org. is working closely with the CDC for the detection of H2H transmission. I don't know...either it should be comforting or even more scary?? Personally I think one of them would be being told to start gearing up if it was close or imminent. But it seems to be business as usual. Who knows?
     
    


Best idea here Becky is to start a new thread with some links and information which I wll do this morning. Thank you for your comments though and I understand and follow your line of thinking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2006 at 5:21pm
Originally posted by Albert Albert wrote:

Lying is done with words and also with silence.
 
Lukeaah, no offense, but that makes absolutely no sense.   
 
Albert, she is refering to a lie by omission. Jo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2006 at 5:40pm
Originally posted by Albert Albert wrote:

Confirmation of H5N1 in Canada could get ugly for the Canadian poultry market.  The U.S. would have to immediately cut off all imports from Canada upon the news, which wouldn't be pleasant.  Since H5N1 would then be confirmed in North America, I'm sure that various sectors of the U.S. markets would see huge sell offs as well.  People need to stay clear of  ANY part of the stock market.  The iceberg is teetering on the edge once again, as they say...

 
 


I have been told by a friend who lives in the U.S., his home is less than 100 miles from the island, such an announcement would be catastrophic. No doubt an H5N1 infection confirmation  here, would place it in North America, and near enough to the border, to assume it likely to be in the U.S. as well. It is quite clear how badly this would  effect  the stock market. Even an announcement of a Level 4 - anywhere - would have severe effects on the poultry market and stocks.

When the stakes are this high, and data becomes delayed and nebulous, then it is difficult to ascertain how accurate the data being released is or how much is suppressed. What is the most disturbing is how specimens sent for final confirmation so often test completely opposite of those at the primary infection site.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oisanatta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2006 at 8:47pm
....grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference...

....prep, stay cool, prep some more, do a dry run (wear a mask, try some prep food, etc), prep some more, keep tuned to the news, do not become an alarmist but find that middle ground to educate with facts without overwhelming the listener, and just sit back and wait it out.... 
The only thing worse than a brutal lie is the brutal truth. (M Twain) I waited patiently for the LORD; He turned to me and heard my cry. He lifted me out of the pit; He set my feet on a rock. Psalm40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gimme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2006 at 9:04pm
Originally posted by aurora aurora wrote:

Years ago I was on the boardwalk in Atlantic City and a gull pooped on my head. Everyone else was horrified, but I thought it was hilarious.
If it happened today, I'd have to run down the boardwalk shrieking "BioHazard! BioHazard!"
My three teenagers also have the family's warped sense of humor - we'd probably all be asked to leave. LOL
 
Hahahahahah.. that's so funny.. the visual in my mind. 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jhetta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2006 at 9:12pm
 
 
Speaking from experience... never laugh at the beach while looking up!  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oisanatta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2006 at 9:33pm
And never take your eyes off of your french fries while walking the boardwalk.
The only thing worse than a brutal lie is the brutal truth. (M Twain) I waited patiently for the LORD; He turned to me and heard my cry. He lifted me out of the pit; He set my feet on a rock. Psalm40
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