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PANDEMIC ALERT LEVEL
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Now tracking the new emerging South Africa Omicron Variant

ImmunoSuppression

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Poll Question: Would immunosuppressors be effective treatment for H5N1?
Vote Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
2 [11.76%]
7 [41.18%]
4 [23.53%]
4 [23.53%]

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PJParent001@aol.com View Drop Down
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    Posted: January 24 2006 at 5:41pm
Bird Flu: The Untold Story
 
 
On today's Oprah Winfrey Show, Dr. Michael Osterholm, an infectious disease expert from the University of Minnesota pointed out: the 1918 Spanish flu killed healthy 20 to 40 year olds.; people with healthy immune systems. Pregnant women were especially affected.
 
So now I;m wondering if immuno suppressors might at all be helpful in combatting the onslaught of the H5N1 virus?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote woffman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2006 at 5:43pm

I am on an immuno suppressor.   If I live thru the bird flu we will know the answer.  

 Now all I have to do is get a years supply of my meds.  That will be easier said then done.

 

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2006 at 5:44pm

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You had to listen to the whole explanation....

The reason so many pregnant women died is because their immune systems are toned down during pregnancy.  Or at least that's the reason I have seen stated.

On the flip side, some have hypothosized that maybe AIDS patients just might get a free pass on this (provided they aren't too far down the road of decline.)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CupcakeMom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2006 at 6:04pm

     Other infections besides H5N1 also are known to cause a cytokine storm in the lungs, and produce a syndrome called ARDS (Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome).  It is still very hard to treat even with modern medicine, and the mortality rate is about 40% or so.  Corticosteroids are virtually always tried but so far with so-so results.  Steroids were given to at least some of the H5N1 patients who died (according to the WHO reports) without having much effect.  The treatment is basically to give agents that may kill the organism, while ventilating the heck out of the person. 

     In a pandemic, there honestly will be an almost laughable shortage of ventilators (sorry, but just the facts.)  And other, more high tech treatments that could be used for ARDS will just be totally out of reach. 

     I know I'm repeating myself too much, but the best way to get through the flu pandemic alive is not to get the flu to begin with. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2006 at 6:10pm

Mom,

I have read that ARDS has a modern day successful treatment of only about 10%.  That's with everything we can throw at it.  So your admonition is well given and short of that we need a way to prevent ARDS from developing.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AuntBones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2006 at 6:32pm
I also asked that question in a post before PJP.Was thinking about Methotrexate, to suppress immune system.  I was on it for five years,and back on it again now. It would have to be used in a I.V. form.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2006 at 6:36pm

ARDS MORTALITY:  (CupCakeMom was correct)

http://www.ards.org/learnaboutards/whatisards/faq/faq3.html

Survival and Mortality (death)?

The mortality (death) rate estimates range from 30 percent to 70 percent.  Recent data suggests that on average more than 40 percent die from ARDS.   This data accounts for direct deaths resulting from not recovering from ARDS.   The data does not account for deaths among survivors which may be causally related due to medical conditions arising or effected by the encounter with ARDS.

Since ARDS was first described in 1967, the prognosis has improved slightly despite rapid advancements in medical science and technology.  Statistical data reveals that approximately one half of who develop ARDS each year will survive in the United States and other countries which have well trained medical personnel and facilities for treating ARDS patients.

Younger people and those who have fewer chronic health problems are more likely to recover.  It is known that people with a milder form of ARDS tend to have a better chance of recovering than those with a more severe form of the illness.

It is also known that the cause of a patient's ARDS helps predict that patient's chances for survival.  For example, patients who develop ARDS due to sepsis usually do not do as well as patients whose ARDS is related to trauma.   Finally, those patients who do survive after developing ARDS usually improve over several months with a return to normal or near normal lung function.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2006 at 6:40pm

ARDS: (CYTOKINE STORM)

http://www.pulmonologychannel.com/ards/

Overview

Acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) is sudden, life-threatening lung failure. ARDS inflames the alveoli, causing them to fill with liquid and collapse. Once the alveoli collapse, gas exchange ceases, and the body becomes starved of oxygen. ARDS requires treatment with mechanical ventilation or some other form of assisted breathing.

ARDS is a syndrome, not a specific disease. A variety of underlying conditions, from blood-borne infections to major trauma, can cause the characteristic inflammation and accumulation of fluid (edema) in the alveoli (see causes).

ARDS usually develops within 24 to 48 hours of the injury or illness. The duration and intensity of the condition can vary considerably from patient to patient. The mortality rate from ARDS ranges from 35?50%. In most cases, death results from underlying disease or from complications of mechanical ventilation. In patients who survive, normal lung function usually resumes within 6 to 12 months.

Incidence and Prevalence
According to the American Lung Association, the incidence of ARDS ranges from 1.5 to 71 per 100,000 persons in the United States.

Pathophysiology
The respiratory system resembles an upside-down, hollow tree. Indeed, the passageways leading from the mouth to the interior of the lungs are referred to as the tracheobronchial tree. The parts of the body through which air enters and exits the body (i.e., the mouth, nose, larynx, and trachea) make up the "trunk" of the tree. The tubes that lead to the lungs (bronchi) and the tiny tubes inside the lungs (bronchioles) are the tree's "branches" and "twigs."

Air moves through the respiratory system from the base of the trunk to the tips of the twigs. Clustered at the tips of the trachiobronchial twigs are tiny air sacs called alveoli, where inhaled oxygen passes into the blood stream. This is where ARDS occurs.

Injury to the alveoli
About 90% of the cells that make up the alveoli are very thin "type I epithelial cells" across which actual gas exchange takes place. Oxygen normally diffuses very easily through this layer of cells into the capillaries where it binds with the hemoglobin in the red blood cells.

The alveolar epithelial cells normally form a very tight barrier around the alveolar space, preventing any fluid from entering and disrupting gas exchange. In ARDS, the alveolar epithelial barrier breaks, allowing flooding of the alveolar space and making it difficult or impossible for oxygen to diffuse into the capillaries.

ARDS also can affect the "type II alveolar cells". Type II cells are thicker, square-shaped cells and the main function of these cells is to produce surfactant. Surfactant plays an essential role in preventing the alveoli from collapsing. The flooding through the broken type I cell barrier and the diminished production of surfactant by the type II cells collapse the alveoli.

Alveolar damage is increased by the activity of immune system cells (neutrophils) that rush to the site of injury, ironically, to help out. The activity of these cells and the inflammation they cause create a cascade of further injury that may extend into the capillaries as well.

Injury to the alveolar capillaries
If the original injury is in the alveolar capillaries that lie just beneath the alveoli, chemical mediators (usually cytokines) that the immune system releases in response, rush to the site of the injury, damaging and causing inflammation to the cells that line the capillaries (i.e., the capillary endothelium).

As a result, cells and fluid leak through the capillaries and into the alveolar spaces; the capillaries become blocked with cellular debris and fibrin (i.e., protein that makes up blood clots); surfactant production ceases; and the alveoli collapse.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Corn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2006 at 6:53pm

Back to the aids statements, remember AIDS is also a virus, it too can mutate and is becoming resistant.

We have never been able to outwit virusus in any successful or sustained manner.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CupcakeMom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2006 at 6:59pm
Your posts are so helpful, S-Z, the background info helps everyone be able to put what's being discussed into perspective
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2006 at 7:07pm
 feelin' the luv!  Thanks, it's nice not to be slapped around for a change!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Proudest Monkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2006 at 10:01pm

Our immune systems are there for a reason! It does not seem like a logical medical treatment for the bird flu to suppress the immune system by taking drugs. I would never take any of those type of medications unless it was absolutely necessary. These drugs should only be used as a last resort.
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