Is it time to move on from mRNA vaccines

This is just my own opinion and idea so no references at bottom of post. Feel free to debate all opinions welcome.

My overriding concern is what appears to be a monopoly on vaccine designed.  Trying to stop a pandemic with a vaccine designed around one single protein of the virus doesnt make sense to me.  Not everyone will process epitopes from the spike protein efficiently. They need other parts of the virus to make the full effective response.  It's the way we evolved, and it's maybe why China took a different approach and designed their major covid vaccine around the whole virus.( they predominantly use the more traditional whole vaccine attenuated design over mRNA designed).  

Immunologly we are all genetically different so when 2 people are infected with the same virus the whole virus is pulled to pieces and bits of that virus are held out to our immune system.  Like waving a scented rag to a sniffer dog.  Thing is genetically different people wave different scents to their immune sniffing dog, the scent your dog (immune system) responds to will be different from the person next to you.  If you wave the wrong scent you get a muted response from your dog, it may go after it once but isnt stimulated so soon stops attacking the scent, or sometimes no response. So many people out there may not make good responses to the spike protein.  They need another part of the virus.  Maybe one of its assembly protein or one in its outer capsule. 

It's called immunodominant epitopes and maybe the spike protein does not contain certain peoples immunodominant sequence.

The Chinese use whole viral vaccines.  That is they take the virus and treat it so it cant replicate.  Then stick this virus in the vaccine.  That way the immune system gets access to the whole range of viral proteins not just the single spike protein.  They give the immune system a choice from a buffet we give it a set single course of one protein. I am not saying it's a perfect vaccine but it's different to ours. Worth looking at this traditional method as it's the way we always did it before mRNA.

I appreciate why we went down this line, but I cant understand why we have just stopped with our vaccine design and gone with completely with mRNA vaccine.  

I dont know if omicron is due to selective pressure from vaccine or due to reassortment with another coronavirus in the same individual (pick up genetic material from common cold virus) some sequencing data may indicate this.   However we cant be dominated by a few vaccine manufacturers.  There are other approaches we need to explore.

My fear is we are just creating a market for the mRNA vaccines and that this is too narrow a focus.

Open up vaccine and treatment research but it seems to have stagnated in Europe and USA.and we have gone  mRNA vaccine design or bust. 

I am not saying mRNA vaccines did not have and still has a part to play and have no doubt they saved and are still saving lives,but is it time to move on from relying on this strategy but we seemed to have squashed all other vaccine competitors or candidates.

Hz x

I am a bit confused  at the apparent concern that only mRNA vaccines are being used , more people in the world have been and will continue to be vaccinated with none mRNA vaccines than with mRNA vaccines ( AstraZeneca+sinovax+Sputnik ).

The mRNA vaccines appear to have a higher efficacy than the none mRNA vaccines.

If someone is concerned about having part of a viruses sequence either injected into them (or created inside them), then why would they be less concerned with having the entire virus sequence  injected inside them????

The longer the sequence of the novel virus (in this case covid 19) that is inside a person then surely the greater the chance that more people would have adverse reactions to parts of that sequence.

 In the UK currently 73 people (AstraZeneca vaccinated) are assumed to have died due to clots caused by their bodies reaction to part of the virus sequence (note if they had caught covid it is estimated that they would have been 8 times more likely to have had fatal blood clots due to their bodies reaction to the same sequence, and being realistic the chances of any of us in the UK being able to avoid covid long term is practically  zero!!!!,)

KiwiMum , you appear to have some strange ideas about how vaccines work , NO vaccine is 100% safe or effective, NO vaccine can stop you catching something , vaccines work by priming the bodies defenses so that you have a better chance of defeating the attack.

AI, you mentioned Smallpox vaccine in another post,

You do know that smallpox is DNA based ,

The flu and Covid viruses are RNA ,as you will know DNA is far more stable than RNA, therefore it's easier to produce a vaccine as it  mutants very little at all stays very much the same ,

Flu ,and Covid viruses change all the time ,that's why we have never cured the Common cold,we will never conquer covid,

vaccines just stop you getting really sick and and keep you out of hospital.nit sure about the mutations rates of the other disease,at the moment will now go and look.....

Take care all 😷😉💉

Just pulled this off the net..

Thanks I'm learning new stuff myself......

Some viruses mutate frequently, such as those that cause the common cold (e.g., rhinovirus), influenza, hepatitis C and HIV. Others like the chicken pox virus (varicella-zoster virus) and the mono virus (Epstein-Barr virus), mutate less frequently. Viruses like SARS-CoV-2 are RNA viruses and they mutate frequently.7 Sept 2021

Sorry Hazelpad,

 getting off topic 

I think mRNA will be the main way of making vaccines in the future,

Thats doesn't mean abandoning other methods,but given a bird flu pandemic, normal vaccine production wouldn't work that well,as the virus kills the eggs that the vaccine is Produced,as far as I aware.......

Take care all 😷😉💉

But do you agree they mutate at different rates,some barely changing, and that's why vaccines work with some diseases,and not others aka Covid.....

Take care all 😷😉💉

[url]https://twitter.com/ginnymooy[/url] or https://twitter.com/ginnymooy retweet; Omicron: New report from UK  Health Security Agency (link below) not good. It confirms high transmissibility more than delta as in ZA. Also early vaccine effectiveness data after 3 doses only 70-75% vs symptomatic illness https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/upl

oads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1040076/Technical_Briefing_31.pdf4/4 Omicron 2: on top of that virus neutralizing antibody data from Germany shows rapid decline within a few months Post 3rd dose. The decline for me is an unhappy surprise, I thought it would hold up better after 3 doses. We need guidance on potential 4th dose, which vaccine?

DJ [url]https://twitter.com/PeterHotez[/url] or https://twitter.com/PeterHotez ; 

Our low cost 

  recombinant protein COVID-19 vaccine is being scaled/produced in India 

 and Indonesia 

. Our aspirational goal is to vaccinate the world's low-income countries in the coming months

Maybe new vaccines offer hope ? 

Hazelpad, I get the impression mRNA vaccines may not "do the GLOBAL job"....We need vaccines that also are better atstopping spread-dealing with the virus getting into cells in the "most wide way" possible (opposite what present vaccines may do now-to "narrow" ?)

@Hazlepad - I will start by saying I am sure that I agree with you more than I disagree with you.

I do understand your point about the majority of the vaccines being targeted at the spike protein , perhaps the title of the thread is not perfect as it implies you are more concerned with the delivery mechanism rather than the target ?

If I was in charge of the world then personally I would want a range of different approaches as putting all or most of your eggs in one basket is risky , it is a shame that it is the Chinese vaccine that has taken the more traditional route as like most people I have a degree of scepticism surrounding any covid data that comes out of China.

Having said that , the logic of going for the spike protein makes sense and so far the data * seems to show that the vaccines targeting the spike protein are more effective than either the Chinese vaccine or by having immunity by infection, how long that will remain the case is open to question.

My point about the amount of sequence that is used was more aimed at the anti-vaxers , as I can already imagine the objections they would raise as already the best info at present suggests that at least some of the fatal reactions to the AstraZeneca vaccine have been due to the bodies reaction to part of the covid sequence rather than part of the vector virus sequence.It is almost certainly the same with Pfizer and/or the same problem would arise using the whole covid sequence. What is not known is how many/any of the Circa 8 Billion people on this planet would have an adverse reaction to other parts of the covid sequence that are not used at present by the western vaccines , given the vast numbers of people its likely that someone somewhere would have an adverse reaction. Its also why I say that no vaccine can be 100% safe or effective as you are relying on the response of each individuals immune system and we are all slightly different, and even an individuals response will vary at different times depending on a range of factors that affect their overall health at the time they need to fight something off. The experts (and I am not one of them) agree that there is still a lot about the immune system that is not yet understood.

 I would agree with Kiwimum that using somebodies vaccination status is not sufficient for international travel and that

 a) international travel should be shut down as much as is possible and

 b) if international travel has to happen then a negative pcr test at the airport should be required , but how do you segregate the passengers before/during/after the tests ?

Like most peple here in the UK, I  have had the AstraZeneca for my first 2 doses and the Pfizer as my booster . I fully accept that there is a risk with any vaccine , but the risk of getting covid without being vaccinated is vastly greater than any risk from a vaccine and assuming that I have not already had covid , its practically a dead cert that I will get it at some point, all I can do is try and make sure I do not get it during a large wave , so that should I be unfortunate enough to need hospital treatment at least I stand a chance of being able to get it.

*Like most people I would prefer to use data from multiple independent peer reviewed papers that have come to the same conclusion and span a few years , but we have to accept that during a pandemic we don't have that luxury and have to go with what we have got.