Click to Translate to English Click to Translate to French  Click to Translate to Spanish  Click to Translate to German  Click to Translate to Italian  Click to Translate to Japanese  Click to Translate to Chinese Simplified  Click to Translate to Korean  Click to Translate to Arabic  Click to Translate to Russian  Click to Translate to Portuguese  Click to Translate to Myanmar (Burmese)


Forum Home Forum Home > General Discussion > General Discussion
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Malaysian passenger plane crashes in Ukraine
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Online Discussion: Tracking new emerging diseases and the next pandemic; Now tracking the Wuhan Coronavirus COVID-19

Malaysian passenger plane crashes in Ukraine

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
Dutch Josh View Drop Down
Senior Adviser Group
Senior Adviser Group


Joined: May 01 2013
Location: Arnhem-Netherla
Status: Offline
Points: 37207
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 8:28am
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein
Back to Top
jacksdad View Drop Down
Executive Admin
Executive Admin
Avatar

Joined: September 08 2007
Location: San Diego
Status: Offline
Points: 44981
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 7:12am
inthesticks - full marks for trying at least Thumbs Up

"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.
Back to Top
onefluover View Drop Down
Admin Advisor Group
Admin Advisor Group
Avatar

Joined: April 21 2013
Location: Death Valleyish
Status: Offline
Points: 20151
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote onefluover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 7:02am
Originally posted by inthesticks inthesticks wrote:

Can we please stop the Obama-bashing? Geez...you folks dislike the man so much that you spend all your time conjuring up hate and directing it towards our President? Give it a break! This is not the place for that crap.


So defending Bush is now Obama bashing? To defend, one must first be offended. Bush and Putin at least had a little sence of respect for each other - or fear. Tended to keep **** like this from happening. Tended. Putin has no respect at all for your president. We tried to tell you.
"And then there were none."
Back to Top
DANNYKELLEY View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: May 01 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2785
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote DANNYKELLEY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 6:59am
If the shoe fits!!
WHAT TO DO????
Back to Top
inthesticks View Drop Down
Adviser Group
Adviser Group
Avatar

Joined: December 18 2007
Location: Arkansas -- US
Status: Offline
Points: 3284
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote inthesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 6:45am
Can we please stop the Obama-bashing? Geez...you folks dislike the man so much that you spend all your time conjuring up hate and directing it towards our President? Give it a break! This is not the place for that crap.
Back to Top
jacksdad View Drop Down
Executive Admin
Executive Admin
Avatar

Joined: September 08 2007
Location: San Diego
Status: Offline
Points: 44981
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 6:38am
I agree, Josh. The first order of business is to find and recover the victims who are still lying out there, including the 80 children and 3 infants lost in this tragedy.
There are at least three groups that know what happened - Russia and the US (who have eyes everywhere 24/7, especially a conflict zone with the potential for international escalation like the Ukraine), and the SOBs that targeted a commercial flight with almost 300 innocents on board. Now we have to hope that justice prevails and behind the scenes politics doesn't hand us a sacrificial lamb in place of the real perpetrators.
"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.
Back to Top
onefluover View Drop Down
Admin Advisor Group
Admin Advisor Group
Avatar

Joined: April 21 2013
Location: Death Valleyish
Status: Offline
Points: 20151
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote onefluover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 6:08am
"Malaysia hosted the war crimes tribunals which found George W Bush and company guilty as well as Israel guilty of war crimes, perhaps this is why they were targeted."

GWB has strong genetic descention from the Netherlands (As do I. That's how I know). He would be more likely to blow up a plane full of sick chickens. If he were still president this event would probably have not happened. And we would be there on the ground by now if it had. What happened was exactly what appears to have happened. A sad mistake by amateurs that is now being covered up by Russia. Yeah, Bush did it-in so far as he was term limited.
"And then there were none."
Back to Top
Dutch Josh View Drop Down
Senior Adviser Group
Senior Adviser Group


Joined: May 01 2013
Location: Arnhem-Netherla
Status: Offline
Points: 37207
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 3:26am
In the media I see a lot of finger-pointing on Russia without much evidence that is trustworthy. The phone-call-tapes from the Ukraine secret service do not convince me. AWACS-planes must have caught any surface to Air missiles, even when they were fired from western Russia-border area. (Even though the plane crashed 50 kilometres west from the Russian border). 

I have much doubts about the claim that separatist are responsible given the fact that this SA-weapon is that complicated to handle and the separatists do not seem to be that organized. Russian "advisors" would think twice before using such a weapon. Eventhough Putin was on his way back from the BRICS-summit in Brasillia (were the BRICS-countries started their own World Bank and IMF, clearing to road further for another worldcurrency than the US-petro-dollar) he did not fly over the Ukraine. 

Veterans Today is always pointing its finger against Israel. I do not agree with that. But they might have a point in saying that Israel has fighters based in Azerbeidjan. 

The first priority has to be bringing back the bodies. In Dutch nes there is alot of attention for the fact that whole families, father-mother-chlidren, are killed. It is disrespectfull that some media are pushing for military action while a lot of people are waiting to say goodby to their loved ones. 

The world has allready seen to much madness, we do not need more !
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein
Back to Top
Dutch Josh View Drop Down
Senior Adviser Group
Senior Adviser Group


Joined: May 01 2013
Location: Arnhem-Netherla
Status: Offline
Points: 37207
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 3:10am
US surveillance which includes AWAC, drones and satellites is capable of detecting the launch of any air defense missile, ground based, capable of reaching the necessary 32,000 foot altitude.

Such a weapon would have been spotted in seconds and, as all such systems in the region are under continual surveillance due to the sensitive nature of the conflict and the history of allegations made, making claims we expect to be made outlandish.
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein
Back to Top
Dutch Josh View Drop Down
Senior Adviser Group
Senior Adviser Group


Joined: May 01 2013
Location: Arnhem-Netherla
Status: Offline
Points: 37207
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 3:08am
Malaysia hosted the war crimes tribunals which found George W Bush and company guilty as well as Israel guilty of war crimes, perhaps this is why they were targeted.
Update:  If, as claimed a BUK missile was fired at Putin’s plane.  President Putin’s version of Air Force One has extensive ECM modules capable of jamming incoming missiles.  Were a missile fired at them and it locked on, ECM, as with America’s “Air Force One,” would jam the missile systems.  It is also likely that Russia has a “back door” into all systems they build, such as the one the “Ukies” had deployed outside Donetsk..
We have no confirmation that Putin’s plane had a fighter escort but are assuming it did not.  Were a missile to have hit the Malaysian plane, evidence will be easily discernible and missile wreckage should already have been found.
As to whether an air-to-air or ground-to-air missile is found to be the culprit, we should know in hours unless that is suppressed.  Either way, John McCain’s childish threats, to only go after those responsible if they happen to be enemies of his “handlers,” was an unwise statement.

This is another quote from the VT-article mentioned earlier. I put this quote here because I wonder why Malaysian Airlines is effected twice this year. Most countries, including the Netherlands, could be found guilty of war crimes somewere in their past. (The Dutch East Indies-War 1945-1949 did see Dutch war crimes). 
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein
Back to Top
Dutch Josh View Drop Down
Senior Adviser Group
Senior Adviser Group


Joined: May 01 2013
Location: Arnhem-Netherla
Status: Offline
Points: 37207
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 3:06am
ETN received information from an air traffic controller in Kiev on Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.

This Kiev air traffic controller is a citizen of Spain and was working in the Ukraine. He was taken off duty as a civil air-traffic controller along with other foreigners immediately after a Malaysia Airlines passenger aircraft was shot down over the Eastern Ukraine killing 295 passengers and crew on board.

The air traffic controller suggested in a private evaluation and basing it on military sources in Kiev, that the Ukrainian military was behind this shoot down. Radar records were immediately confiscated after it became clear a passenger jet was shot down.

Military air traffic controllers in internal communication acknowledged the military was involved, and some military chatter said they did not know where the order to shoot down the plane originated from.

Obviously it happened after a series of errors, since the very same plane was escorted by two Ukrainian fighter jets until 3 minutes before it disappeared from radar.

Radar screen shots also show an unexplained change of course of the Malaysian Boeing. The change of course took the aircraft directly over the Eastern Ukraine conflict region.

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein
Back to Top
Dutch Josh View Drop Down
Senior Adviser Group
Senior Adviser Group


Joined: May 01 2013
Location: Arnhem-Netherla
Status: Offline
Points: 37207
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 3:05am
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/17/777-shot-down-over-ukraine/

We spoke to air catastrophe and air-defence specialists. Here are several points they drew our attention towards:

1) It is not a fact that it was a “Buk” air-defence system and in general nothing is fact for the air catastrophe experts before the investigation is carried out.  According to the Chicago convention, Ukraine has to carry out the investigation (as the jet fell down on our territory), and anybody can be included in the committee. For an objective investigation, we have to capture the territory where the jet fell, and at least document the parts of the plane, bodies, traces of the attack part of the missiles’ damage on video (is it is a “Buk,” then metal rods, if it is a C-200 – ball-bearing parts etc.), find the black boxes etc.

2) The air traffic services should have closed this zone for flights right after the AN-26 was taken down yesterday from a height unaccessible for the man-portable air-defence system. Before it was closed up to 8 (we think) kilometres, it was enough for protection from the man-portable system (the missiles are small and have enough fuel for 4-5 kilometres only).  From the perspective of civil aviation safety, the fall of the jet is our mistake and Ukraine should be the one to pay compensations. And this is a huge blow to Ukraine as an aviation transportation operator.

3) As to the “Buk”: in theory, for the system’s successful work, a minimum of 4 out of 5 vehicles within the complex is necessary: the commandment car, the target locator car, the targeting car and the firing point with the missiles.  One can do without the charging car, which transports additional missiles, in case the missiles have been set up on the firing point in advance.  15-17 highly-qualified military specialists are needed to service these military specialists.

4) The principle of action of “Buk” air-defence system: – under close supervision of the commander, the locator determines the target and the coordinates; – the operator of the firing system launches the missile in the given direction; – the targeting car lights up the target with radio waves; – this reflected signal is captured by the self-targeting system of the missiles and its computer corrects the course; – the missile explodes several metres before reaching the plane, sending metal rods flying everywhere that damage the fuselage, the engines, the electric system etc.

5) “Buk’s” range is 40-50 kilometres horizontally and 20-25 vertically. It is a general military weapon (covers the soldiers from air attack directly on the battlefield), and not an air-defence forces weapon.

6) The air-defence system’s locators show three kinds of targets (as radio signals):  – missile (one leading engine); – destroyer, storm jet or a similar small military jet (the turbine of the engine creates a recognisable radio signal); – strategic bombarder or transportation jet (a big plane with many engines). The latter category could include a passenger vessel, as the radio image is identical.

7) If it is a “Buk,” then:  – it could have come from Russian territory. The caterpillar track can take the vehicles even through fields; – it could have been part of the captured Ukrainian Armed Forces division (if they indeed had all the parts of the complex). However military specialists for such accordant work were clearly imported, the reserve army is insufficient in this case; – it could have even worked from Russian territory, somewhere around Kuybyshevo. However, the Boeing was moving with its cruising speed (about 900 km/hr) and during the fall its parts continued falling to the east because of inertia.

8) This could have been not a “Buk,” but a different air-defence system.

9) Additional materials regarding “Buk” – http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/buk-2m/buk-2m.shtml

10) But this is all in theory, we need EVIDENCE – data from civil radars, military equipment, satellites, CONTROL OVER THE CRASH SITE, not to allow the locals to take the parts for scrap metal et

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein
Back to Top
Dutch Josh View Drop Down
Senior Adviser Group
Senior Adviser Group


Joined: May 01 2013
Location: Arnhem-Netherla
Status: Offline
Points: 37207
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 3:03am
http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/mh17.html

Saturday, July 19, 11:40 AM GMT +0800 Media Statement 6: MH17 Incident

Media Statement 6: MH17 Incident

The below table shows the latest number of passengers and their nationalities of those on-board MH17, as of 19 July 2014:-

 

Nationality

Total

 

Netherlands

192 (including 1 dual Netherlands/USA citizen)

 

Malaysia

44 (including 15 crew & 2 infants)

 

Australia

27

 

Indonesia

12 (including 1 infant)

 

United Kingdom

10 (including 1 dual UK/S. Africa citizen)

 

Germany

4

 

Belgium

4

 

Philippines

3

 

Canada

1

 

New Zealand

1

 

Total

298

  

 

     

Malaysia Airlines is working closely with the respective embassies to notify the next-of-kin of the passengers.

Our focus now is to work with the emergency responders and authorities and mobilize its full support to provide all possible care to the next-of-kin.

Our thoughts and prayers are with all affected passengers and crew and their family members.

The airline will provide regular updates on the situation.

Families of passengers and crew may contact +603 7884 1234 (Malaysia) or +31703487770 (Netherlands).

For media queries, kindly contact +603 8777 5698/ +603 8787 1276. 

-end-

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein
Back to Top
rickster58 View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: March 09 2009
Location: Sydney
Status: Offline
Points: 4875
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rickster58 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 9:54pm
Hi FluMom
I do agree the black boxes will tell little ..... it's the MOTIVE and Chain of Command I'm interested in.

Agreed Johnray1 - Obama is counter productive to the US and should be impeached immediately. His attitude of "screw Congress', I'll do what-ever-the-hell I want is just plain wrong. Everything he touches turns to S*it
Back to Top
Johnray1 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 23 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8159
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Johnray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 9:43pm
rickjster58. Putin gave the order.. As far as Obama ordering that they be sent to a neutral nation,Obama is not going to order Putin to do anything.I hope that we can survive 2 more years of this man. Johnray1
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 9:31pm
Hi Rick! Our experts on TV said the black boxes will tell us nothing since it was a surface-to-air missile. This FAA guy said it was more important to get samples of the residue off of debris. He said that they can tell what kind of missile and a bunch of other things I don't remember now. LOL, I am in the middle of getting a new kitchen my mind is gone.

So let them take the black box to Moscow it proves nothing but there was recording then an explosion. Putin is responsible it was a Russian Missile launched by Russian Minions. But like North Korea years ago nothing will happen. Sad for the families.
Back to Top
rickster58 View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: March 09 2009
Location: Sydney
Status: Offline
Points: 4875
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote rickster58 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 9:23pm
You know what bothers me from reading all the initial reports. That is the fact the Russian separatists located the black box recorders almost immediately and sent them to Moscow.

On whose orders?

IMO, Russia should be the last country handling any vital evidence to do with this disaster.

Why hasn't the US demanded they be handed over to a neutral country immediately?
Back to Top
jacksdad View Drop Down
Executive Admin
Executive Admin
Avatar

Joined: September 08 2007
Location: San Diego
Status: Offline
Points: 44981
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 8:42pm

MH17: separatists block international observers from crash site

Gunmen fired shots into the air in a warning to OSCE monitors visiting site where Malaysia Airlines plane came down

Representatives from the OSCE arrive at the crash site surrounded by pro-Russian fighters

Representatives from the OSCE arrive at the crash site surrounded by pro-Russian fighters
Reuters

  • 3:20AM BST 19 Jul 2014

Gunmen prevented monitors from the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe from observing the site where a Malaysian airliner crashed in rebel-held eastern Ukraine on Friday, the rights and security watchdog said.

Calling their behaviour "impolite and unprofessional", an OSCE spokesman said some gunmen in the area seemed intoxicated while others would not let the team of about 25 observers look at the wreckage of the Boeing 777.

"We had expected unfettered access, that's the way we work," Michael Bociurkiw told a news conference.

"Unfortunately the task was made very difficult. Upon arrival at the site ... we encountered armed personnel who acted in a very impolite and unprofessional manner. Some of them even looked slightly intoxicated."

He denied that the observers had been fired at by pro-Russian rebels, but said one gunman fired shots into the air, seemingly to scare off some civilians.

Earlier, the OSCE's permanent council chairman, Thomas Greminger, told Reuters monitors had not been able to secure an access corridor for the crash-site and that investigators had stayed there for only about 75 minutes before setting off back to Donetsk.

The United States said it was "very concerned" about the way the OSCE monitors had been treated.

"Those who say they are going to participate in or welcome this investigation need to give unfettered access and obviously, we didn't see that when these individuals were there for 75 minutes," U.S. State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki told a regular news briefing in Washington.

The United States wanted to see "a credible, international investigation," she said, adding that the U.S. government had offered to send personnel and resources from the National Transportation and Safety Board and the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Psaki said the Ukrainians had accepted the offer and the NTSB and FBI would each send at least one investigator, although it was unclear when they would go.

"And we of course will be responsive to their needs moving forward," she said.

World leaders have called for a rapid investigation into the shooting down of the airliner, which could mark a pivotal moment in deteriorating relations between Russia and the West. The United States and Britain said a surface-to-air missile appeared to have been fired from rebel held territory.

There were no survivors from the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, a Boeing 777. The United Nations said 80 of the 298 aboard were children. It was the deadliest attack on a commercial airliner and scattered bodies were seen over miles of rebel-held territory near the border with Russia.

U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Samantha Power told a meeting of the U.N. Security Council on Friday it was unlikely the separatists could have effectively operated that missile system without help from knowledgeable personnel.

Russia's U.N. Ambassador Vitaly Churkin called for an "impartial, open investigation of what happened," and warned against any attempts to prejudge the matter.

Bociurkiw said the OSCE intended to visit the site again on Saturday and spend the whole day there. "We unfortunately could not get much done today because of the behaviour of the armed individuals and the lack of access," he said.

He said the team could not find anyone to talk to about the airliner's black box, and that it was not clear who was in charge of the territory where the airliner crashed.

"The crash site is a very large area and there may be more than one group who holds sway over that area," he said.

He added that while the bodies had not been touched - they seemed to be lying where they fell, personal possessions appeared to have been arranged in piles as if "for show".

Some of the bodies showed early signs of decomposition.

"As for observing close up the wreckage of the Boeing 777 that was very difficult. The armed guards did not allow us very much leeway to leave the roadway and look at the wreckage," he said.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10977705/MH17-separatists-block-international-observers-from-crash-site.html


"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.
Back to Top
Johnray1 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 23 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8159
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 7:15pm
rickster58. You are 100% correct and our people knew all of this information with in seconds or minutes of the Missile being launched. Other countries know the same thing. I believe that our President and the other leaders are afraid to say that it was fired from Russian soil and show the proof.Because if they did that,then someone would have to enter Russia and arrest the guilty people and take them for trial. The US Army is the only Army on this planet that is capable of doing this,but Obama does not have the courage to give an order like that.It is not that America or our soldiers are afraid to this,but our President is afraid of Putin. I think that Putin gave the order, just to see if he could push the envelope a little more and he did and he is going to get by with it.----- We badly need a real President.------- With all of the dead Virologist,it would not surprise me if a deadly Viral Flu starts some time in the near future. Johnray1
Back to Top
Dutch Josh View Drop Down
Senior Adviser Group
Senior Adviser Group


Joined: May 01 2013
Location: Arnhem-Netherla
Status: Offline
Points: 37207
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 7:02pm
Local people in Ukraine claim the plane was shot down by a jet-fighter. The remains of the plane should be investigated to find out what has happened. (Certainly if it is a second plane from the same company involved in such an accident). 

The US/NATO and Russia is monitoring the area and if they have evidence be open with it. http://www.prisonplanet.com/was-malaysian-airlines-mh-17-accidentally-shot-down-over-ukraine.html
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down