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Online Discussion: Tracking new emerging diseases and the next pandemic since 2005; Coronavirus COVID-19 Pandemic Discussion Forum.

Osterholm: C-span Continued

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FluMom View Drop Down
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    Posted: April 03 2020 at 9:57pm

Watched the whole thing.  Interesting, Trump closed off China Jan. 27...Olsterholm said they knew about Jan. 20  so not too off there.  But he is correct that SNS does not have the vents needed but neither does each state.  I am not sure who over the years are more responsible the states or the federal Govt.  Let's face it Obama used up the SNS in 2009 and he was President for 6 more years.  So why did he not fill up the SNS?  I am not sure how much Trump filled up the SNS...no one ever thinks this is going to happen in their term.  So I put blame on Obama and Trump.  

All that being said we now can't make Vents because a lot of parts come from China...the U.S. no longer makes the parts for anything.  Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama all shipped our manufacturing to China and Mexico but mostly China.  So now we are standing here with only our dicks in our hands instead of a gun. (Godfather)   Sorry to be so blunt but that is the truth.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 5:45am

Well said, FluMom. We are all to blame.  COMPLACENCY!  It's a standard human trait.

It could be argued that no one could prepare as they did not know what was coming.  But obviously something  was; it always has, throught history.

Countries (not just yours, mine too - everyone's) need bigger 'rainy day funds'.  


As for the language?  I live in NE Scotlnd, it is just normal speech here.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flubergasted Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 5:45am

That actually isn't true.  We do have manufacturing in the U.S.,  but U.S. manufacturers are not being invited to the table.  We don't know what they can do, because they aren't being asked. Companies like GM and Ford are so used to dealing with foreign suppliers, it's like they forgot how to do business with U.S. companies.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thorne! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 8:33am

Originally posted by FluMom FluMom wrote:

Watched the whole thing.  Interesting, Trump closed off China Jan. 27...Olsterholm said they knew about Jan. 20  

What he said was his group became aware of it the last week of December. By January 20 they knew it was aerosolized. He was clear that the WH had no excuses for not knowing early on, contrary for the CYA BS coming out of the WH lately that "it is all the CCPs fault cause they didn't tell us and fudged the numbers".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WitchMisspelled Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 9:44am

Sorry FluMom.  But that is a little misleading....

It's a matter of public record that Trump didn't restrict travel from China January 2020.  The order that was signed in January 2020 included Eritrea, Kyrgyzstan, Myanmar, Nigeria, Sudan and Tansania but not China.   So no executive order specifically citing China was issued.  The restrictions that did come down including China came down from Azar who did not include residents, students and Americans and their family members.   Before that, there was free travel with only temperature checks.  

It wasn't until March 13th that an Executive order was signed which, among other countries, included restricting anyone who had traveled through or from China in the previous 14 days.

I know it might seem like a semantic argument, but that meant thousands of people came here with few or no restrictions up to March 13th.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Taxman100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 10:00am

Something to remember when judging the use of funds federal funds during an administration. The power to spend money rests with congress and congress alone, not the president.  If I remember right the US had a Republican controlled house and senate for the last six years of Obama's administration that were hell bent on lowering the deficit, so no money appropriated for preparedness.   Interesting to note that deficits never seem to be a problem when the president is a Republican.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 10:04am

Originally posted by WitchMisspelled WitchMisspelled wrote:

Sorry FluMom.  But that is a little misleading....

It's a matter of public record that Trump didn't restrict travel from China January 2020.  The order that was signed in January 2020 included Eritrea, Kyrgyzstan, Myanmar, Nigeria, Sudan and Tansania but not China.   So no executive order specifically citing China was issued.  The restrictions that did come down including China came down from Azar who did not include residents, students and Americans and their family members.   Before that, there was free travel with only temperature checks.  

It wasn't until March 13th that an Executive order was signed which, among other countries, included restricting anyone who had traveled through or from China in the previous 14 days.

I know it might seem like a semantic argument, but that meant thousands of people came here with few or no restrictions up to March 13th.

Yes it is a matter of public record this was issued on Jan 31.

NOW, THEREFORE, I, DONALD J. TRUMP, President of the United States, by the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including sections 212(f) and 215(a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), 8 U.S.C. 1182(f) and 1185(a), and section 301 of title 3, United States Code, hereby find that the unrestricted entry into the United States of persons described in section 1 of this proclamation would, except as provided for in section 2 of this proclamation, be detrimental to the interests of the United States, and that their entry should be subject to certain restrictions, limitations, and exceptions.  I therefore hereby proclaim the following:

Section 1.  Suspension and Limitation on Entry.   The entry into the United States, as immigrants or nonimmigrants, of all aliens who were physically present within the People’s Republic of China, excluding the Special Administrative Regions of Hong Kong and Macau, during the 14-day period preceding their entry or attempted entry into the United States is hereby suspended and limited subject to section 2 of this proclamation.

Sec2.  Scope of Suspension and Limitation on Entry.

(a)  Section 1 of this proclamation shall not apply to:

(i)     any lawful permanent resident of the United States;

(ii)    any alien who is the spouse of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident;

(iii)   any alien who is the parent or legal guardian of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident, provided that the U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident is unmarried and under the age of 21;

(iv)    any alien who is the sibling of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident, provided that both are unmarried and under the age of 21;

(v)     any alien who is the child, foster child, or ward of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident, or who is a prospective adoptee seeking to enter the United States pursuant to the IR-4 or IH-4 visa classifications;

(vi)    any alien traveling at the invitation of the United States Government for a purpose related to containment or mitigation of the virus;

(vii)   any alien traveling as a nonimmigrant under section 101(a)(15)(C) or (D) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(15)(C) or (D), as a crewmember or any alien otherwise traveling to the United States as air or sea crew;

(viii)  any alien seeking entry into or transiting the United States pursuant to an A-1, A-2, C-2, C-3 (as a foreign government official or immediate family member of an official), G-1, G-2, G-3, G-4, NATO-1 through NATO-4, or NATO-6 visa;

(ix)    any alien whose entry would not pose a significant risk of introducing, transmitting, or spreading the virus, as determined by the CDC Director, or his designee;

(x)     any alien whose entry would further important United States law enforcement objectives, as determined by the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Homeland Security, or their respective designees based on a recommendation of the Attorney General or his designee; or

(xi)    any alien whose entry would be in the national interest, as determined by the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Homeland Security, or their designees.

(b)  Nothing in this proclamation shall be construed to affect any individual’s eligibility for asylum, withholding of removal, or protection under the regulations issued pursuant to the legislation implementing the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, consistent with the laws and regulations of the United States.

Sec3.  Implementation and Enforcement.   (a)  The Secretary of State shall implement this proclamation as it applies to visas pursuant to such procedures as the Secretary of State, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, may establish.  The Secretary of Homeland Security shall implement this proclamation as it applies to the entry of aliens pursuant to such procedures as the Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of State, may establish.

(b)  Consistent with applicable law, the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Transportation, and the Secretary of Homeland Security shall ensure that any alien subject to this proclamation does not board an aircraft traveling to the United States.

(c)  The Secretary of Homeland Security may establish standards and procedures to ensure the application and implementation of this proclamation at United States seaports and in between all ports of entry.

(d)  An alien who circumvents the application of this proclamation through fraud, willful misrepresentation of a material fact, or illegal entry shall be a priority for removal by the Department of Homeland Security.

Sec4.  Orderly Medical Screening and Quarantine.   The Secretary of Homeland Security shall take all necessary and appropriate steps to regulate the travel of persons and aircraft to the United States to facilitate the orderly medical screening and, where appropriate, quarantine of persons who enter the United States and who may have been exposed to the virus.  Such steps may include directing air carriers to restrict and regulate the boarding of such passengers on flights to the United States.

Sec5.  Termination.   This proclamation shall remain in effect until terminated by the President.  The Secretary of Health and Human Services shall, as circumstances warrant and no more than 15 days after the date of this order and every 15 days thereafter, recommend that the President continue, modify, or terminate this proclamation.

Sec6.  Effective Date.    This proclamation is effective at 5:00 p.m. eastern standard time on February 2, 2020.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WitchMisspelled Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 10:35am

Links to 2 EO's signed 1/31/20

This one has to do with Child trafficking
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/02/05/2020-02438/combating-human-trafficking-and-online-child-exploitation-in-the-united-states

This one has to do with Ensuring lawful e-Commerce, Intellectual Property and Government Supply chains.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/02/05/2020-02439/ensuring-safe-and-lawful-e-commerce-for-united-states-consumers-businesses-government-supply-chains


So.. all three of us is wrong! Imagine that! We all got it WRONG!  

If you can, link me to your source and I'll check it out myself.   


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 10:47am

Originally posted by WitchMisspelled WitchMisspelled wrote:

Links to 2 EO's signed 1/31/20

This one has to do with Child trafficking
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/02/05/2020-02438/combating-human-trafficking-and-online-child-exploitation-in-the-united-states

This one has to do with Ensuring lawful e-Commerce, Intellectual Property and Government Supply chains.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/02/05/2020-02439/ensuring-safe-and-lawful-e-commerce-for-united-states-consumers-businesses-government-supply-chains


So.. all three of us is wrong! Imagine that! We all got it WRONG!  

If you can, link me to your source and I'll check it out myself.   


No I'm not wrong, that was not an EO it was a presidential proclamation which is still lawful and enforceable under USC law as are presidential memorandums. Here's the link

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/proclamation-suspension-entry-immigrants-nonimmigrants-certain-additional-persons-pose-risk-transmitting-coronavirus/

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WitchMisspelled Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 4:20pm

I just looked that up myself.   That's just the briefing.  Here's the proclamation itself.  I've taken the liberty of posting the exceptions to this proclamation.  

Proclamation 9996  
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/DCPD-202000053/pdf/DCPD-202000053.pdf

"Sec. 2. Scope of Suspension and Limitation on Entry. (a) Section 1 of this proclamation shall not apply to: (i) any lawful permanent resident of the United States; (ii) any alien who is the spouse of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident; (iii) any alien who is the parent or legal guardian of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident, provided that the U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident is unmarried and under the age of 21; (iv) any alien who is the sibling of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident, provided that both are unmarried and under the age of 21; (v) any alien who is the child, foster child, or ward of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident, or who is a prospective adoptee seeking to enter the United States pursuant to the IR–4 or IH–4 visa classifications; (vi) any alien traveling at the invitation of the United States Government for a purpose related to containment or mitigation of the virus; (vii) any alien traveling as a nonimmigrant under section 101(a)(15)(C) or (D) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(15)(C) or (D), as a crewmember or any alien otherwise traveling to the United States as air or sea crew; 3 (viii) any alien seeking entry into or transiting the United States pursuant to an A–1, A– 2, C–2, C–3 (as a foreign government official or immediate family member of an official), G–1, G–2, G–3, G–4, NATO–1 through NATO–4, or NATO–6 visa; (ix) any alien whose entry would not pose a significant risk of introducing, transmitting, or spreading the virus, as determined by the CDC Director, or his designee; (x) any alien whose entry would further important United States law enforcement objectives, as determined by the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Homeland Security, or their respective designees based on a recommendation of the Attorney General or his designee; or (xi) any alien whose entry would be in the national interest, as determined by the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Homeland Security, or their designees. (b) Nothing in this proclamation shall be construed to affect any individual's eligibility for asylum, withholding of removal, or protection under the regulations issued pursuant to the legislation implementing the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, consistent with the laws and regulations of the United States. Sec. 3. Implementation and Enforcement. (a) The Secretary of State shall implement this

In short, it only stopped entry by those with a tourist or student visa.

You can read the rest yourself. There's a whole lot of "holes" in this. And it didn't include Hong Kong or Macau.

So I maintain that we are both wrong.  It did restrict travel, but it didn't stop the influx.  I won't complicate things by posting Proclamation 9992 which was signed mid-March which supersedes the proclamation you're referring to and stops travel completely from China and other countries.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 4:58pm

Originally posted by WitchMisspelled WitchMisspelled wrote:

I just looked that up myself.   That's just the briefing.  Here's the proclamation itself.  I've taken the liberty of posting the exceptions to this proclamation.  

Proclamation 9996  
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/DCPD-202000053/pdf/DCPD-202000053.pdf

"Sec. 2. Scope of Suspension and Limitation on Entry. (a) Section 1 of this proclamation shall not apply to: (i) any lawful permanent resident of the United States; (ii) any alien who is the spouse of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident; (iii) any alien who is the parent or legal guardian of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident, provided that the U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident is unmarried and under the age of 21; (iv) any alien who is the sibling of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident, provided that both are unmarried and under the age of 21; (v) any alien who is the child, foster child, or ward of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident, or who is a prospective adoptee seeking to enter the United States pursuant to the IR–4 or IH–4 visa classifications; (vi) any alien traveling at the invitation of the United States Government for a purpose related to containment or mitigation of the virus; (vii) any alien traveling as a nonimmigrant under section 101(a)(15)(C) or (D) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(15)(C) or (D), as a crewmember or any alien otherwise traveling to the United States as air or sea crew; 3 (viii) any alien seeking entry into or transiting the United States pursuant to an A–1, A– 2, C–2, C–3 (as a foreign government official or immediate family member of an official), G–1, G–2, G–3, G–4, NATO–1 through NATO–4, or NATO–6 visa; (ix) any alien whose entry would not pose a significant risk of introducing, transmitting, or spreading the virus, as determined by the CDC Director, or his designee; (x) any alien whose entry would further important United States law enforcement objectives, as determined by the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Homeland Security, or their respective designees based on a recommendation of the Attorney General or his designee; or (xi) any alien whose entry would be in the national interest, as determined by the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Homeland Security, or their designees. (b) Nothing in this proclamation shall be construed to affect any individual's eligibility for asylum, withholding of removal, or protection under the regulations issued pursuant to the legislation implementing the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, consistent with the laws and regulations of the United States. Sec. 3. Implementation and Enforcement. (a) The Secretary of State shall implement this

In short, it only stopped entry by those with a tourist or student visa.

You can read the rest yourself. There's a whole lot of "holes" in this. And it didn't include Hong Kong or Macau.

So I maintain that we are both wrong.  It did restrict travel, but it didn't stop the influx.  I won't complicate things by posting Proclamation 9992 which was signed mid-March which supersedes the proclamation you're referring to and stops travel completely from China and other countries.

"It's a matter of public record that Trump didn't restrict travel from China January 2020.  The order that was signed in January 2020 included Eritrea, Kyrgyzstan, Myanmar, Nigeria, Sudan and Tansania but not China.   So no executive order specifically citing China was issued.  The restrictions that did come down including China came down from Azar who did not include residents, students and Americans and their family members.   Before that, there was free travel with only temperature checks.  

It wasn't until March 13th that an Executive order was signed which, among other countries, included restricting anyone who had traveled through or from China in the previous 14 days."

Those are your words not mine, you specifically stated restricted not banned, no moving the goalposts Lucy. He did restrict travel from China by proclamation on January 31 which went into effect Feb 2. The month before this 300,000 chinese visited the US so while there were exceptions for Americans and permanent residents it did restrict travel from China which was what the original post was all about correct?

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/proclamation-suspension-entry-immigrants-nonimmigrants-persons-pose-risk-transmitting-2019-novel-coronavirus/

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WitchMisspelled Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 5:25pm

This is why you never get anywhere ...   

Circular arguments are very non-productive. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 5:44pm

Originally posted by WitchMisspelled WitchMisspelled wrote:

This is why you never get anywhere ...   

Circular arguments are very non-productive. 

Actually if you look at your initial statements of "facts" and my presenting of the actual facts in relation to your statements it's quite linear.  I'm not the one going in circles.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WitchMisspelled Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2020 at 6:27pm

Because you're cherry picking the argument.  My original post was in response to FluMom.  Read in context it should make more sense to you.    

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