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OT: Global Warming |
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 Topic: OT: Global WarmingPosted: September 02 2006 at 12:30am |
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An expert (!) on Talk Radio yesterday said that, Global Warming is occuring - he wasn't comittal on it's origins but his point was there is nothing whatsoever we can do to stem the tide and no amount of emission control will make a blind bit of difference - he said all we can do is change and adapt to the inevitiable, not try, pointlessly, to go back 10 years as that will never happen.
When we run out of oil or pass peak or Iran switch off the taps or Al Queda overthrow the Saudi royal family (or we have a BF pandemic) then the emissions will be cut back by default. In a UK survey this week, people said they wouldn't give up there cars for public transport or bikes however expensive petrol got. Reality check. That's where we are at. Making petrol (and all associated products) unaffordable will only crash the global economy and no government will do that. The ONLY thing that will slow/stop/reverse climate change/global warming is the inevitible end of oil leading to the population drop by 80%. And initially things will get worse as everyone will burn coal and the fuel of all nearby woodlands. Hence why Nuclear is seen as 'attractive'. The govs know that the gen pop will not all start conserving and changing to renewables voluntarily. People in Glastonbury might, but Glastonbury is a bubble as remote as was Tibet! So enjoy the party, it's the early hours already. Soon be dawn :) |
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Samoa
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Posted: September 02 2006 at 12:57am |
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"The Masses" in the US won't wake up until diminished precipitation (caused by GW) depletes the American aquifer. Then,
you'll see a Reality Check. It's amazing, really,
mindboggling. The Colorado River no longer flows into the Gulf of
California. It approaches the Gulf, but dries up and disappears
into the sand several miles short of where Nature intended it to
go. And people STILL don't get it.
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Posted: September 02 2006 at 1:44am |
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Hotair
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Posted: September 02 2006 at 11:38am |
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I get it and it makes me sick. My work out partner has seen me bicycle all summer to the gym. She lives closer then I do and still refuses to get her bike out of the garage. She said she would pay for gas no matter how high the price. I think she speaks for most Americans. Again, it makes me sick.
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Samoa
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Posted: September 05 2006 at 1:56pm |
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I participate in a couple of Science Discussion Forums. Even
there, we get members who decry those who are concerned about Global
Warming as Chicken Littles. Avian Flu, we can take action to
protect and preserve ourselves. Worldwide Climate Change is
something that we won't be able to cope with. Look for the great
boreal forests of Siberia to start burning off in the next few years as
they dry out. Aside from the particulate matter produced by the
fires, the loss of trees will expose huge tracts of peat bog,
previously frozen for thousands of years, to begin to thaw and
decompose. This will pump even more methane into the
atmosphere. Oh, we're leaving behind a real mess for our kids.
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VtDoc
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Posted: September 05 2006 at 2:35pm |
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I don't believe enough is known about natural climate cycles to say that any particluar change is the result of human activity. However, the safest course would be to assume that greenhouse gases of human origin are the decisive factor. Clearly not enough is being done to correct the problem, but I agree that all the efficiency gains and conservation that we could possibly achieve are not enough. Anyone who thinks we can conserve our way out of this by switching to fluorescent light bulbs, etc, is not being realistic. We need alternative sources.
Nuclear facilities are probably the only feasible major source at this point. Wind and solar, etc could also add to the mix. Ethanol, biodiesel will help. But as long as the people who see fossil fuel use as a problem will not agree to these facilities being built, how can it be fixed? I still haven't heard Al Gore's plan. All the "environmentalists" say no to every viable option--saying things like "we need to fund research into alternative energy sources." We already have alternative sources, but they try to prohibit construction of them.
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Ravendawn
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Posted: September 05 2006 at 2:40pm |
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This subject has me a little confused on one hand we have global warming and the other global dimming ?which is it to be ,i read a article sometime back stating scientists are preparing a series of rockets to be launched into the atmosphere deploying sulfur to combat GW and as i recall there forecast for its ability to do its intended job seemed very sketchy,we are in a tricky situation here China and India need to be addressed and sanctioned with regard to there waste ,but by then it will be to little to late.It angers me being jumped on about my waste by the UK Government when they want to increase the amount of airports,roads,and mass housing
 The companies who supply the public should be on the cutting edge with regard to reducing the packaging and junk mail we receive but again it seems to be a good way to add tax's to the general public and not address the problem at its core.The affects on the Gulf Stream have me very concerned if that shuts down we have big problems.
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MelodyAtHome
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Posted: September 05 2006 at 2:58pm |
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Samoa I'd like to know if you don't mind which science forums you belong to. I'd like to join. Science interests me very much. Thanks:O)
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Melody
Emergency Preparedness 911 http://emergencypreparedness911.blogspot.com/ |
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Mahshadin
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Posted: September 05 2006 at 4:09pm |
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This will be the topic of the 21st Century. Right now we are cutting off our noses despite our face so-da-speak. You no what they say (No Pain No Gain). And currently we all just do not feel it personally and there have been no leaders to consolidate the issue as a National or Global problem effectively. The problem is more putting it in terms that average people can understand and identify with.We could be making real progress right now as Americans just in a simple little thing like light bulb purchases. But because we feel no pain personally to what we are doing to the planet we just keep buying those 25 cent light bulbs not even asking the questions.
If all Americans took a simple action like buying nothing but Compact Fluorecent Light Bulbs we would stop 20 to 30 million tons of Carbon Dioxide from entering into are atmosphere.
A good place to start!!!
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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Ravendawn
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Posted: September 05 2006 at 4:55pm |
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Anyone think the use of commercial hemp could solve more than a few issues with GW,it seems to be a pretty amazing plant.
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Hotair
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Posted: September 05 2006 at 5:10pm |
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I don't see how most folks can keep their blinders on. Just today, there was a massive fish die-off in Quatar. The oceans temp. rose to 37 degrees centigrade. My fear is that we will (probably sooner then later)have a massive food shortage as everything ecologically is connected. If there is a water shortage, you are not going to water a large herd of cattle. It is kind of depressing because we can't prepare ourselves to be self sufficient for years. I can manage a few months, though. I was just thinking today, where could we move where we would be assured of food and water in the future? I think the answer is no where. And I am an optimist by nature!
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Pretty Bird
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Posted: September 05 2006 at 5:37pm |
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What show it was, I don't remember, but there was a reputable scientist on stating that the Ozone was repairing itself all on it's own. He was stating that the atmoshere is constantly making adjustments.. etc.
And then another show or special had another reputable scientist stating that there is nothing that we can do to correct the damage which we have caused to the Ozone. I was really quite shocked to hear such conflicting opinions on the subject. It goes without saying that it is very sad to think of what we have managed to do to our planet. I think that something must be done and now.
It makes perfect sense to me, that the earth may be in a sense protecting herself with global pandemics and global warming.
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“A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequence.” Proverbs 22:3
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Posted: September 05 2006 at 9:34pm |
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I have always wondered how we are effecting the planet by removing all the crude oil.Would it be kinda like slowly draining your oil pan?Does it effect volcanic activity?
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Samoa
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Posted: September 06 2006 at 12:03am |
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I don't buy the idea that fossil fuels resourses will be depleted any
time soon. The Petro-Giants will never let us know what they
know, never "tip their hands".
The poor nations of the World are the ones who will feel the impact of our excess. What I have seen, and it scares me, is that the First World Countries may not view the Third World Countries as "our problem"; but the Third World Countries definitely believe that we are "their problem." |
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Posted: September 06 2006 at 5:35am |
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A possible reason for the colorado river drying up is because so much is pumped out and used for irrigation and farming and drinking water.
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Ravendawn
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Posted: September 06 2006 at 6:01am |
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Good question TWD,its one i have pondered on myself.Coal and oil why are they in a transitional state and how will our planet use them,are we taking away our planets rejuvenation process and destroying the balance in nature from its inner workings? can the process of decomposition actually in someway regulate the way the planet evolves.
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Never2late
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Posted: September 06 2006 at 7:32am |
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Quit having kids, enjoy the present bounty, all good things must come to and end. What, you thought you'd live forever? They found a new batch of oil in the gulf (five miles deep but they are going after it and its huge) so things aren't changing for the better. Man isn't going to voluntarily suffer. China and India are just entering their dirty industrial age, ours is ending (Bill Ford just stepped down). Those with religion can look to a better eternity, those non-believers should party-hardy while the good times roll. Stock up.
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Mahshadin
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Posted: September 06 2006 at 7:37am |
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Here is an excellent show that diggs deap into the issue from many perspectives.
The Science Channel
Global Warming: What You Need to Know, with Tom Brokaw
Friday
Sept 8th 8:00pm Eastern Time
Saturday
Sept 9th 12:00am, 4:00am, & 11:00am Eastern Time
Once again just like H5N1 the best way to take action is to educate people. Tell everyone you know about this program and sit your family down and watch it.
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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Fenwulfr
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Posted: September 06 2006 at 10:40am |
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An interesting topic... I would recommend all of you actually read some published scientific journals on the theory of global warming. You may be surprised to see that there is no real scientific data to back up the hype. Also, our planet has been on a natural warming trend for nearly two centuries. Any of you who don't have the patience for reading dry scientific data, I would recommend reading Michael Chrichton's book "State of fear". It will point to all the scientific data you need to see it for yourself.
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Focusing on the obvious will lead to disaster. It's what you don't aniticipate that gets you killed.
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Scotty
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Posted: September 06 2006 at 1:25pm |
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Fenwulfr: No one has yet proved that pumping millions of tons of poison, polution and greenhouse gases into the atmosphere is beneficial.
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Mahshadin
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Posted: September 06 2006 at 2:03pm |
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Wow I guess there are still a few na-sayers out ther who will defend a debunked idea till the end.
If there is a half a buck in it for someone you can count on some specialist creating a scientific report to claim whatever (As he collects his check).
The facts are pretty much indisputeable at this point, sticking your head in some sand pile is not the answer.
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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crystal
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Posted: September 06 2006 at 3:28pm |
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mashadin - if all of us on this forum just bought these energy efficient light bulbs it would be a first step. They work great and save $70 per light bulb over time. Get them at Costco - 8 bulbs for $9.00. The consumer saves money and the planet benefits - so what the hell? I've been using them for several years now. They say if everyone just replaced only 3 light bulbs with these in their homes it would be like taking 4 million cars off the roads!!
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peace
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Posted: September 06 2006 at 3:36pm |
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Of course its beneficial to the planet Scotty.It gets rid of us and gives the cockroaches their turn at world conquest.
But seriously,What kind of bulbs are those crystal? |
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crystal
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Posted: September 06 2006 at 3:43pm |
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They are fluorscent bulbs that fit into any light bulb socket. The "old" Edison bulbs emit heat (for no purpose) and take a lot of energy to run. These last 9 YEARS based on 3 hours of use each day. As I said, you can find them at Costco for cheap but they are also sold in Safeway, etc. It's one small thing we can all do now and save money doing it.
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peace
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Mahshadin
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Posted: September 06 2006 at 4:08pm |
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The point is everyone needs to get involved in some way. The public has been sold a bill of goods (Bad Science). There are things everyone can do and in many cases the changes wont affect your way of life in a drastic way. The light bulbs are just one example.
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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Mahshadin
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Posted: September 06 2006 at 5:51pm |
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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comrade
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Posted: September 06 2006 at 6:05pm |
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Mahshadin, I use those bulbs in about half my lamps. They are very helpful on the lamps we have on timers. I also keep my HVAC on a program..that help$. Thanks!
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Mahshadin
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Posted: September 06 2006 at 6:59pm |
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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Mahshadin
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Posted: September 06 2006 at 7:06pm |
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It's Not Just Your AC, Look to Your PC to Save Energy CostsIt's not just your air conditioner -- what many overlook is how much energy their computers use on a daily basis -- the latest federal statistics show computers used more electricity than microwaves, VCRs and dishwashers combined. The EPA and HP (NYSE: HPQ) (NASDAQ: HPQ) say there are many things you can do to save electricity associated with IT and electronics products in your home. -- Buy ENERGY STAR(R) or other energy-efficiency rated eco-labeled computers and peripherals. They can help you save energy and money. An ENERGY STAR(R) qualified computer uses 70 percent less electricity than computers without enabled power management features. -- Consider using flat panel liquid crystal display (LCD) monitors versus conventional CRT monitors. LCD monitors reduce energy consumption by a third. LCD monitors also run cooler, which helps save on air conditioning costs. |
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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Posted: September 06 2006 at 7:25pm |
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The climate, like the weather and stocks...fluctuates.
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Mahshadin
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Posted: September 06 2006 at 8:41pm |
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Atleast they got their own name right (Junk science.com)
Below are some real facts by real scientific organizations
Here is a list of "enviro-Nazis" and "left-wing loonies" who believe that Anthropogenic Global Warming is real and well supported by sound science:
NASA's Goddard Institute of Space Studies (GISS) http://www.giss.nasa.gov/edu/gwdebate/ National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/index.htm National Academy of Sciences (NAS) http://books.nap.edu/collections/global_warming/index.html State of the Canadian Cryosphere (SOCC) http://www.socc.ca/permafrost/permafrost_future_e.cfm Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) http://yosemite.epa.gov/OAR/globalwarming.nsf/content/index.html The Royal Society of the UK (RS) http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/page.asp?id=3135 American Geophysical Union (AGU) http://www.ametsoc.org/policy/climatechangeresearch_2003.html National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR) http://eo.ucar.edu/basics/cc_1.html American Meteorological Society (AMS) http://www.ametsoc.org/policy/jointacademies.html Canadian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society (CMOS) http://www.cmos.ca/climatechangepole.html Every major scientific institute dealing with climate, ocean, and/or atmosphere agrees that the climate is warming rapidly and the primary cause is human CO2 emissions. Global Warming is not an output of computer models, it is an observation. The following diverse and numerous empirical observations lead us to the unequivocal conclusion that the earth is warming:
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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Mahshadin
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Posted: September 06 2006 at 8:45pm |
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Climate Scientists Hide Water Vapor
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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Mahshadin
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Posted: September 06 2006 at 9:01pm |
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More for the Skeptics________________________________This is Just a Natural CycleObjection: The current warming is just a natural cycle. I always find this one a little amusing in the sense that you might as well call it "magic", because natural cycles do in fact have causes. So this is really just trying to insist that the climate science community is as ignorant as whoever it is writing this objection. Answer: While it is undoubtably true that there are some cycles and natural variations in global climate, anyone who wishes to insist that the current warming is purely or even just mostly natural has two challenges. Firstly, they need to identify just what this alledged natural mechanism is because absent a forcing of some sort, there will be no change in global energy balance. So natural or otherwise we should be able to find this mysterious cause. Secondly, a "natural cause" proponent needs to come up with some explanation for how a 30% increase in the second most important Greenhouse Gas does not itself affect the global temperature. In other words, there is a well developed, internally consistent theory that predicts the effects we are observing, so where is the sceptic model, or theory whereby CO2 does not affect the temperature and where is the evidence of some other natural forcing? There is a fine historical example of a very dramatic and very regular climate cycle that can be read in the ice core records taken both in Greenland and in the Antarctic. A naive reading of this cycle indicates we should be experiencing a cooling trend now, and indeed we were very gradually cooling over the length of the preindustrial Holocene, something around .5C averaged over 8000 years. It is informative to compare those fluctuations to today's changes. Leaving aside the descents into glaciation, which were much more gradual, the very sudden (geologically speaking) jumps up in temperature every ~100Kyrs actually represent a rate of change roughly ten times slower than the rate we are currently witnessing. So could the current change be natural? Well, there is no identified natural cause (and they have been looked for), there is no theory of climate where CO2 does not drive the temperature and the natural cycle precedents do not show the same extreme reaction we are now witnessing. |
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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marks6555
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Posted: September 06 2006 at 11:54pm |
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the sun is a funny thing.
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When the going gets weird, the weird turns pro. -HST
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Judy
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Posted: September 07 2006 at 12:18am |
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I have purchased these bulbs in Dollar General, though the price is much better at Costco.
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If ignorance is bliss, what is chocolate?
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Pretty Bird
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Posted: September 07 2006 at 12:49am |
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Originally posted by DISPENSER 4 HIR
The climate, like the weather and stocks...fluctuates. http://www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/ Originally posted by Mahshadin At least they got their own name right (Junk science.com) Below are some real facts by real scientific organizations. The above are good examples of all the conflicting theories out there. It leads to a lot of confusion on the subject.
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“A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequence.” Proverbs 22:3
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Posted: September 07 2006 at 2:23am |
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I, sadly, once thought the same and sadly most still do but do check out the info at the link. GIve it 5 minutes and it might change your world. The Peak Oilers admit that the only thing that will _delay_ peak oil is a high mortality bird flu pandemic. Peak Oil will be far worse than BF and permanent. the link Life After the Oil Crash |
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Posted: September 07 2006 at 2:48am |
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Sadly untrue. Americans are the only citizens, in any number, on planet eart who still think this. No doubt something to do with the Bush admin being Oil men - which they are. anyway check this non fluctauting graph showing stats from 1860 to present day - in other words from the start of the Industrial revolution aka the Death Knell 
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jofg
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Joined: May 31 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 79 |
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Posted: September 07 2006 at 5:51am |
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KevO - a problem with the graph is it shows the last 140 years or so - a very tiny drop in the bucket when compared to the history of the Earth!
Mahshadin - There are constant increases and decreases in the global tempature. Studies seem to indicate that these relate to solar activity. Of course, this is all based on estimated tempature data - ice core drillings, etc. This gives us a good indication of the tempature at a speific time in history - but it is difficult to say how accurate it is.
Also, there is some debate on the cause and effect of co2 on the increased tempatures - is the increased co2 the cause of the warming, or an effect of the warming? Or - is there no cause/effect at all (there is not definitive proof that they are linked).
Is the plant warming at this time - I think we can all agree that's a YES! Can we say without a doubt it is because of humans?
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crystal
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Posted: September 07 2006 at 8:03am |
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You all need to see the movie "An Inconvenient Truth". It is very eye-opening. I know people don't like All Gore but he makes a great case for global warming and it's really interesting. |
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peace
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Mahshadin
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Posted: September 07 2006 at 9:32am |
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The idea that we can pump millions to Billions of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere year after year and good old mother earth is just going to take care of it for us is absolute nonsense. There is now more than one, two and more channels of scientific evidence supporting what is now happening GW. And on top of that with CHINA and INDIA and some smaller countries mimicing our fossil fuel based economy our problems are only going to get worse unless we all wake up and start taking action.
Basic common sense is required here. Would you drink small doses of poison knowing in a few months the poison would accumulate and kill you, of course not (Common Sense)
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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crystal
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Posted: September 07 2006 at 9:42am |
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Mahshadin - YES! We all need to start doing something even as small as replacing light bulbs! My next car will be a hybrid.
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peace
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Mahshadin
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Posted: September 07 2006 at 9:56am |
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Exactly
Get involved its not hard and it wont be that painful. We all have children and they will have children. What kind of world will we leave them?
Imagine what they will say about us if we do nothing.
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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Mahshadin
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Posted: September 07 2006 at 10:04am |
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Crystal I have not watched that movie. Is it out on DVD___________
Another good source of factual scientific Media is the science channel
Here is an excellent show that diggs deap into the issue from many perspectives.
The Science Channel
Global Warming: What You Need to Know, with Tom Brokaw
Friday
Sept 8th 8:00pm Eastern Time
Saturday
Sept 9th 12:00am, 4:00am, & 11:00am Eastern Time |
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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crystal
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Posted: September 07 2006 at 11:56am |
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Mahshadin - the movie is still in theaters - hopefully out soon on dvd. Very worthwhile watching.
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peace
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