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Online Discussion: Tracking new emerging diseases and the next pandemic since 2005; Coronavirus COVID-19 Pandemic Discussion Forum.

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MissRX View Drop Down
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    Posted: March 14 2006 at 2:53am

Hello,

I have stocked up on a few bottles of sambucol, and I see that many people here plan on using that as a means of defensive against people infected with H5N1...but I'm hoping to find some information on what type of dosage to take with Sambucol as related to flu, and how often? When to begin treatment, etc?

I do understand that this is not endorsed by doctors, and there is simply only a "possibility" of its effectiveness against H5N1, but as of now I know nothing about how often to administer it to a sick person.

I'm just looking for at least SOME guidance on this, so that I'm not totally blind on the subject.

"The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enumclaw,WA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2006 at 3:34am
Be careful of Sambucol. Some people think it could be bad. Me included

There is evidence that black elderberry extract (trade name: Sambucol) can reduce the risk of contracting ordinary influenza strains, or shorten the course of disease in those who contract the typical flu.

It does so by increasing the production of inflammatory cytokines like IL-1, IL-6, and TNF. PMID:12455180 (cache). PMID:11399518 (cache).

.
While black elderberry extract be appropriate for ordinary Type A influenza, it could make avian flu more lethal. Ordinary strains of flu do not trigger massive production of TNF, and ordinary flu viruses are generally susceptible to the action of TNF. Avian flu, by contrast, does trigger massive production of TNF (as much as a 45x increase), while the virus is relatively resistant to the anti-viral effects of TNF. If TNF is a significant cause of the illness and mortality in avian flu, anything that increases TNF would be undesirable

It has been pointed out that black elderberry does not just increase TNF and other cytokines. It also may reduce the spread of the virus through inactivation, or exert anti-inflammatory effects as well as contributing to the cytokine storm. It may be that combining elberberry with other anti-inflammatories may allow it to check the infection without producing tissue destroying levels of cytokines. But there is insufficient evidence to make a solid conclusion, while there are significant red flags that should be raised about the mode of action of elderberry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calendula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2006 at 6:19am
Miss RX;  I agree with Enumclaw, please read all you can about elderberry and make decisions based on what has been published.  The facts are that H5N1 influenza virus will produce a reaction from the immune system 10X stronger than a regular influenza type A, therefore creating that strong cytokine reaction in the system. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hatter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2006 at 11:08am
I also agree with Enumclaw. I am reading the book "The Great Influenza" by John Barry (which I highly recommend), and they talk about the cytokine storm that raged in the lungs during the 1918 flu (pg 249).   The way I understand it is that the immune system was fighting so hard, that the lungs could not handle the battle.  There are other web sites- that talk about how great sambulcol/elderberry is.  In 1918, the flu hit so hard and so fast, that I would not try to mess with the timing of when to take sambucol.  I know others disagree, but I think it is important that both sides get the attention.  Great post Enumclaw.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote virusil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2006 at 11:19am
me too i agree,sambucol is not for this one
ignorance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MissRX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2006 at 2:21pm

Wow...I've never heard about any of these things. Amazing...

 

Well, it looks like I have some further reading to do on Sambucol then. At least I have some in stock. I',m hoping that the news & other media outlets will begin giving people advice on home influenza care once it becomes a pandemic. I'm hoping....

 

Thanks for your answers everyone :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2006 at 2:47pm

I have purchase several bottles. I would not advise its use in anyone under
40-years of age. I've sent a request for further information to the company.
The information with the packaging suggested that elderberries act as
competitive ligand, its a fancy way of saying it does not cause inflammation,
but the abstracts suggest otherwise. I hope they get back to me to clarify
this.

If there are instructions with your bottle you will notice it calls for different
amounts depending on the severity of the illness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MissRX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2006 at 3:04pm
IS there a reason why you wouldn't suggest it in people under 40?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2006 at 4:15pm



The theory goes that the virus over stimulates the immune system
causing a Cytokine storm to overwhelm the body. The virus is also
capable of moving out of the lungs into the central nervous system and
other major organs. It is the first virus to cause "hind-leg paralysis".

The current stats seem to confirm the theory, the majority of the deaths
have been under 40-years. It is thought that a more mature immune
system would respond differently without triggering a storm. If Sambucol
is shown to primarily act an immune system stimulant then caution is
advised. I have enough for my son (18), but unless I know more, I looking
for some alternatives.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calendula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2006 at 4:22pm
In response to Rick's and to add as to why "people under 40", research has shown that  the immune system tends to be stronger in people 40 and under,( normal human being without a compromise immune system) therefore the reaction (cytokine storm, killer T cells, etc)tends to be stronger, as we age our immune system does have the tendency to become not as strong, therefore the response to the BF logically should be a weaker response to it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MissRX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2006 at 5:16pm

So let me see if I have this right...please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm trying to get this into layman's terms ;) Sambucol will stimulate the immune system even further while its in cytokene storm, therefore making it more dangerous to take if under 40?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enumclaw,WA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2006 at 5:44pm
I'd like to know who came up with the magic age 40? I'm 50 and never hardly ever get sick. Until I see something that tells me otherwise we have no Intention of taking sambucol. I do have some I bought a while back but upon further investigation We will not be taking it. There are other things that should work instead. This is our oppinion and we will stick by it until some one proves otherwise to us. Everyone has to do what they will do. Good luck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2006 at 5:56pm
H5N1 Deaths since 2003



These are the latest stats that were published Sunday. It suggests age has its
virtues. There is no guarantee that these ratios will remain the same.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2006 at 5:58pm
Originally posted by MissRX MissRX wrote:

So let me see if I have this
right...please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm trying to get this into layman's
terms ;) Sambucol will stimulate the immune system even further while its in
cytokene storm, therefore making it more dangerous to take if under 40?



                        Yes, that is the concern.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fritz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2006 at 10:18pm

Originally posted by Enumclaw,WA Enumclaw,WA wrote:

I'd like to know who came up with the magic age 40? I'm 50 and never hardly ever get sick. Until I see something that tells me otherwise we have no Intention of taking sambucol. I do have some I bought a while back but upon further investigation We will not be taking it. There are other things that should work instead. This is our oppinion and we will stick by it until some one proves otherwise to us. Everyone has to do what they will do. Good luck.

So, Enumclaw, what "other things" are you talking about? Inquiring minds want to know. :>}

"I am only one; but still I am one, I cannot do everything, but still I can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do." -- Hellen Keller
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enumclaw,WA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2006 at 3:13am
The problem is we don't know what is going to work. I guess I should have said could instead of should. I am going to try these. (So far) Maybe others too.
All I know is not sambucol unless Something really changes my mind. My oppinion.

Vitamin C
Vitamin E
Turmeric 95% CURCUMIN.
Piperine
Resveratrol
omega-3 fish oil
Garlic oil
Green tea.
Zinc
Selenium
Glucosamine
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calendula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2006 at 5:51am
I would add to my list Oregano oil, and lauric acid= contained in coconuts, a derivative can be found in  already made pills under the name of lauricidin.  What does lauric acid do?  in research it has shown to penetrate the layer of lipid coated viruses, reducing the viral loads.---
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2006 at 5:59am

The above list are excellent items, especially the Omega-3. I posted an
abstract in another part of the forum showing how it can dampen
cytokine storm without comprimising immunosurveillance.

Make sure to get the pharmecutical grade fish oil.

Piperine as I recall is safe, as long as you are not on any prescription
medications. I think its known as a short-acting non-specific,
reversalable inhibitor of the Cytochrome P4500 enzyme complex, or
something like that.

Using zinc lozenges (4 day) might help reduce viral replication in the
throat.

Tumeric is a great anti-inflammatory, I don't know the doseage.

Green Tea - great stuff will keep your gums and heart healthy.

You might want to add Milk Thistle, it has unique and documented
evidence in protecting the liver, an organ you want to keep healthy during
a cytokine storm.

Vitamin D supplement - I take 2,000 I.U. a day because
it's been shown to have a powerful effect in keeping your immune system
on a normal keel.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2006 at 6:00am


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/09/050912080429.ht m
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Amethyst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2006 at 9:12am
I ordered some Sambucol and some Curcumin this week to add to my first aid supplies.  I read on another forum (flu wiki) that you have to eat a pound of tumeric to get one dose of Curcumin.  If green tea is anti-inflammatory, I'll stock up on that, too.  Does any particular type work better, or just any loose leaf green tea?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calendula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2006 at 10:19am
Amthyst:  My suggestion, read all you can about Sambucol and then decide for yourself what would be the best use for it.  Curcumin in capsules are sold at any health food, vitamins, supplement store, if you want to add turmeric to your meals, I believe IMO, it be  might a plus seriuosly doubt it will hurt.   Green tea can be purchased in various forms, in order to get the most benefit read back of the supplement box.  From my experience using other teas vs capsules, I have found that tea enters my system quicker, pehaps for convenience pill form attracts quite a few people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2006 at 10:50am


I would investigate and consider the use of pharmecutical grade Omega-3
fish oil in addition to other things - not terribly expensive. Lots of abstracts
in medline, just search for cytokine and omega-3. It and Glucosamine keep
my knees from going snap crackle and pop, since I had some cartilage
removed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Amethyst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2006 at 11:08am

Thanks, Calendula.  I actually have been buying more ethnic-type organic food lately, such as Indian, so I've been eating curry at least a couple of times a week.  I also like green tea and drink it on a regular basis several times a week.  

I've been eating flax seed from time to time, which I have read also has Omega-3.  I'll check up on fish oil supplements.  I eat fish quite a bit too -- salmon and shrimp.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calendula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2006 at 11:39am
Good for you!  and good luck.! .let me know if you have any questions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alohamora Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2006 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by Enumclaw,WA Enumclaw,WA wrote:

The problem is we don't know what is going to work. I guess I should have said could instead of should. I am going to try these. (So far) Maybe others too.
All I know is not sambucol unless Something really changes my mind. My oppinion.

Vitamin C
Vitamin E
Turmeric 95% CURCUMIN.
Piperine
Resveratrol
omega-3 fish oil
Garlic oil
Green tea.
Zinc
Selenium
Glucosamine
 
My list is very similar to yours.   In addition, I plan on having a good supply of Vitamin D capsules on hand.  I haven't seen too much info on Vit. D for flu but what there is is very interesting and there seems to be very little downside in taking extra D for a short while.  (long term, there might be overdose issues to consider). Here's a post about D on this site
 
More D info -
 
 
D3 research
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tea4Two Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2006 at 2:45pm
I asked my osteopathic doctor about elderberries, given that I have fibomyalgia and arthritis and my immune system is already out of whack. He agreed that this is Not something I should take. He approved of the green tea and omega-3's. We didn't have much time, so I will get more info next time I see him. He did tell me that with pneumonia, one needs to cough, that I should not take a cough suppressant during the day, only at night so I could rest for awhile. He told me that in 1918, the osteopathic doctors had a higher patient survival rate because they did not use meds to lower the fever, they used ice. Can't remember what else he said about how they treated patients. I'll get more info on that next time I see him and take some notes. I did ask him to write me a treatment plan on how to take care of myself if I get this stuff. Will post it when I get it from him. I started a thread on Master Flu Tonic. I asked the doc about that too, and he approved. He said it was really good for clearing mucus from the lungs.
More later when I get more info.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ironstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2006 at 3:38pm
Elderberries and the flu and why i am going to take Sambucol
 
This is just my thoughts on what i have read both pro and con.  My understanding is that elderberries increas the body defense systems but on the other had it "disarms" the virus.  The deaths seem to be from a viral overload of the system kicking the body into high overdirve to get rid of it and in the process, killing the host.  If i have nothing else in my arsenal to go against this beast other than some herbs, vitamins and OTC meds i stand little chance of reducing the viral load, unless one of the doses of items has some property i am unaware of that will save me.  I have decided to opt for the destruction of the virus in the hope that it will be reduced enough to stall an immune system in "overdrive".  It is a gamble with either choice and i know Tamiflu works by not allowing the virus to exit the human cell and elderberry works by not allowing the virus to enter the cell.  Six of one and half a dozen of the other.  A heavy viral load is likely to kill me so reducing the viral load (to me) is more important than worrying about the increase strength of my immune system.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slcmom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2006 at 4:02pm

We're planning on taking it too Ironstone.  Same reaons you mentioned above. 

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thank you enumclaw for a great list

 

i'd like to know which you recommend for treatment, and which for prevention ?

also, what about oregano oil?  any reason it was not on the list?
 
to get back on topic, sambucol is not for me
 
and one last question, and i'll throw it open to all: what about my 2 kids, both under 3 - how does their age impact on the cytokene storm?  my guess, and certainly my hope, is that young kids would have similar advantages to the older population. 
 
any informed opinions on this?
 
thanks again to enumclaw and to all the rest for all of this great information!

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enumclaw,WA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2006 at 4:11am
For Prevention I'm taking right now
Vitamin C
Vitamin E
When it comes to my area I'm adding
Zinc
omega-3 fish oil
The rest I will save incase someone in family gets sick.
Hopefully we will recieve information on this board on what is working and what is not. Let's hope none of us get's sick.Approve
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ironstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2006 at 9:19am
Some of you may want to research Mullein, Fish Flax Borage, and NAC .  There are abstracts on line that will give you information.  I have those in my preps also.  Plus a fish antibiotic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phoenixrising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2006 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by Ironstone Ironstone wrote:

Some of you may want to research Mullein, Fish Flax Borage, and NAC .  There are abstracts on line that will give you information.  I have those in my preps also.  Plus a fish antibiotic.
 
Ironstone,
 
Can you elaborate on which fish antibiotic you purchased--why, the name of th eproduct, and dosage.  TIA
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ironstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2006 at 6:05pm
Natures Bounty is the brand but i got it at a common drugstore.  It is a combo of Fish, Flax and Borage.  Read somewhere on line (best you research for yourself so your satisfied) that it was used in some hospitals to help patients with lung problems.  Supposed to strengthen the lungs ability to deal with illness.
 
Sorry, misread that...have Fishmycin.  The information on line suggests it may well have some anti-viral properties as well as antibacterial.  250 mg ea.....have a dosage at 2,000 a day but still researching the dosage.  I also have Tetracyline at 500 a day.
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I HAVE TAKEN FISH ANTIBIOTICS MYSELF A COUPLE OF TIMES AND IT IS THE SAME AS HUMAN STUFF
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mary008 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2009 at 9:59pm
hi all.... this thread has been quiet for a while.   Tea4two... I also have an osteopathic Doctor... very happy with him, we need more.   he is wise to tell you this ...so it is worth repeating-
 
 
He did tell me that with pneumonia, one needs to cough, that I should not take a cough suppressant during the day, only at night so I could rest for awhile.
........................
 
we had a 3 week virus.   After I used the cough drops...fishermans friend...It made me cough and I hurt so to cough...but after I felt so much better.  I did not take a cough supressant.  vicks did help at night after a steamy shower (some ill people should use a shower chair) and a warm tea.  never hot.  also patting on the chest and back breaks things up.  I used plurisy root extract when the chest felt very heavey...for about 5 days, 3 droppers in a water bottle....2-3 times a day.   People should ask their Doc about dosage and if it is ok to mix certain drugs...also pharmacists are good to ask about interactions.   I do both.
 
 
................................
 
 
 
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