Click to Translate to English Click to Translate to French  Click to Translate to Spanish  Click to Translate to German  Click to Translate to Italian  Click to Translate to Japanese  Click to Translate to Chinese Simplified  Click to Translate to Korean  Click to Translate to Arabic  Click to Translate to Russian  Click to Translate to Portuguese  Click to Translate to Myanmar (Burmese)

PANDEMIC ALERT LEVEL
123456
Forum Home Forum Home > Main Forums > General Discussion
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Tracking Avian Where There Are No Roads
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk

Tracking Avian Where There Are No Roads

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Tracking Avian Where There Are No Roads
    Posted: August 27 2006 at 3:03am
First this may be a two cups of coffee post. It has been on my mind for several days.
 
Sometimes when I post things that are controversial fur begins to fly. It can be low key, it can get a little more heated, and once in a awhile, I get subtle nudges on and offline to back off. This is not to say that I am anything, anyone special, or know or are any more able than any of you to search the net and dig up data. It is simply things have changed in our world and I would like to sit down, one on one with you and talk about it.
 
First of all, you have my promise this post will come together into a cohesive conclusion at the end bringing us back to the name of the topic, and the content posted has a connection and relation to conveying a very important idea. This idea, is so frightening to some groups, so uncontrollable, so out of the box, that "it is possible" efforts, serious efforts are in place in many countries, to contain what it portends.
 
Okay - enough intro. If you were watching a video or whatever pan to a small Russian village about  15-20 years ago - newscast - guy who snuck in the country with a camera crew, made it past the censors and KGB and with some heavy bribes talked to the locals on camera -and the question was - What do you think of our current adminstration and America?
 
Wrapping up a lot of comments. "Scared to death, thought America's leader was a cowboy who was going to bomb all of Russia with nuclear missiles and kill everyone. Lived in constant fear. Envied our toilet paper and not having to buy off the black market off trucks and just going in a store and buying what you needed. This, is what broke the Soviet Union- toilet paper and salt and commodities. People wanted buy toilet paper without standing in a three hour line to get it.
 
Well, there is a point to the this story. I can get on my cell phone, dial a number and be anywhere. I don't need a Visa, I don't need clearance to cross borders, I don't have to tell why I am going there, and some news event can be happening and I can get a description of what is happening. Bombs falling in some country - we won't get specific - or - and here is where there are no roads - the Internet.
 
Now you may say, sure, but stop and think. Pause. Do you know how much freedom you have here? Sure they are logging your IP, but still once you enter in that great sea that flows around the globe and you get beyond the search engines which are heavily monitored, you are in uncharted country.  
 
No news media can tell you fibs and until a page disappears, you might get quite an eyeful and information. Or you can talk to a person looking out their window watching an event. We are not going to get real specific here. But bloggers, and they come in all shapes, sizes, and colors, and especially ability to be accuracte; people on the phone that can take you almost anywhere you want to go and finally (gasp) you get the priviledge of unflitered, uncensored, information.
 
That means I can talk to Dr. ........ in Vietnam or Nurse whatever standing next to an Avian patient real time and ask - and believe I have - and I am not a reporter - tell me what you see - first hand. Understand when CNN comes bumbling like a Bull into  an oriental export shop, "Mr Official" is drug out from somewhere. Mr. Official then makes a "statement." As it says as you enter the Chamber of Horrors in London in the wax museum "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here.".
 
So, sometimes on my posts, you are getting not just a link to some website, you are right next to me, right by that bedside, watching that patient coughing up blood, dying, language being translated by a nurse, and getting "the real deal" - no censorship - no media control - you are researching Avian in the land with no roads and I deal in a rare commidity in these times - the truth.
 
I am not on salary. I am not a reporter. My work here, like yours,  is free. And I must stress that I am not alone here. Friendships, the unusual ones that spring up as we post back and forth have sprung up. But here we have power, working together, gathering information, cutting through all the lies and "expert interpretation so we can undestand the concept of" so many dead from what appears to be Avian, or other nasty diseases. We can monitor what does not make it through the media and official statement filter. And we can consider, but not totally swallow like some trusting infant, how the data should be perceived as dictated by "experts."
 
Never in history have people, had so much power or access to information which spurts through  cracks of data control. I "talked to" via email people in Nepal. So did Albert and many other users. What happened?
 
Then  we had people posting from the city itself? No newspaper, but first hand eyewitness, you cannot cover this one up, information.
 
Suddenly a thread about an unknown disease outbreak focused on something that was embarrassing, like a big spotlight from nowhere. Like opening a kitchen cabinet and all the roaches dart for cover.
 
 
Conclusion :
 
1) We do have people that post and live in an alarmist world. Personally, although sometime they are "upbraided" for not using more common sense and noting obviously a source is pretty shaky and there are many patterns which we all see a lot and some people having read thousands of posts (like Albert) might get that excited. Opinion, let's not be too hard on people who read something and it messes up their day and they start worrying and buying more water and soup, before reading the fine, and sometimes inaccurated print.
2) This forum is VALUABLE. We have had our growls and nips, we have had professional snarls on our qualifications to make certain statements or conclusions. I say, if there is an error or something is not as bad as it looks lets look at this in two viewpoints -
   a) There are some who post consistently inaccurate and will soon destroy their credibility. If they get too intense and start attacking others, then their stay here is within the confines of the head of this forum. This is, not the free speech channel. (My opinion) This is  a MODERATED place to post news and events and then, like adults discuss our opinions.
   b) There are others, and I am developing some serious fondness and respect for a whole lot of people here, not just a few, who really are like a family. Yea, I know, I have this corny part which some find non-scientific and irrelevant to introducting humanity into the sterile world of genetic printouts of sequences. I try, in my humble capacity, and without some agenda or making a cent, to decode all the techie med geek double speak to something even a younger person or not specialized person or lay person can understand. It is a learning process. I am not teaching. We are learning together. I make mistakes. I take my whaps when I miss a stroke or quote, but the truth is the truth.
 
I do get snarls from various sources. Most times they are very subtle, but nonetheless in our stomp across borders, through the media, through government official statements, sometimes things leak out.
 
Personal thought here - and I have worked with government people and sometimes do even now - be careful how long you hold information in limbo and how long you take to show some trust for Americans and release the "real deal."  No matter what the short term economic or social consequences, a plunge in "surprise - we have Pandemic" will not give people the time or mental space to deal with it. You MUST trust Americans to be grown ups; even children to be grown ups. It is their world, their lives too, are involved here.
 
Michigan was an attempt. It was an intelligent move and represents what I see as an evolving inner governement to be more open and keeping the public informed. We have data pouring in now from 48 more states. We have results. People know the score on many things. Yet, we are still not getting the whole picture. Correct me if I am wrong - Michigan, August 14th - its been more than two weeks.
 
But this does not make us "alarmists" or "consipiracy nuts" for commenting on the obvious and logical. Let's admit plainly that contigency plans are plans. They are not plots. They are plans and large parts of those "plans" the general public may not like and will not be informed about and it will take a big shovel to dig their way out of it. 
 
Thanks - those of you who have survived the mini-novel - and even those who got so far and quit and still it made you think.
 
It has been said that China hates the Internet. Recent guy talking about illegal steriliztions and so forth was 100% right on track about his allegations. He is in jail now. Red faces. You can only keep people in the dark so long.
 
I thought to myself the other day on the one thread Sands put up on the mysterious deaths, it was a taste of things to come. Maybe not that thread, but you and I are making history here. It's true you know. The whole idea that whatever massive official data that is is flooded into the internet, and whether you have to go to search engine dogpile #9 and look at entry 436 - you can find things you would not believe and share them with others here.
 
Nothing has stopped. News is just a lot tougher to find.
 
Take care all. We are  in this together. As to my byline - I mean that. My efforts to dig for data are sincere and free. We all have X number of seconds in our lives (ever think of that) I mean an exact number of seconds - and then that's it. You have shared with me and we share together sometimes a sizabe number of those seconds.. and I don't think our time and efforts here are wasted.
 
So, like in Back to the Future, remember that inventor guy, as the wheels lifted up, he said "Where we're going there are no roads." And how very true that is here.
 
 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 5:47am
Medclinician, I understand from where you speak.

I was about to give up, stop digging for truth, stop looking for patterns of lies. The truth is, I can't. Even if I stumble upon something that isn't supposed to be revealed, I cannot hold back. People will have to make their own connections. The truth is in there somewhere and we need a chance to uncover it because we are talking about peoples lives...

All my life I have been buffeted by something I cannot see. I will not stop fighting and that means that Truth needs to be revealed. So onward I post...but we always must count the cost.

There may be a cost to this. There may be a heavy toll.

Look at Steve Centanni and Olaf Wiig who have to convert to Islam to be freed. We cannot overlook the deeper meaning to this action and there are implications for all, eventually. That is the heart of the mark of the beast, they may not know what they are doing if they accept it. Never ever accept that mark even if it means you will remain a captive, or that your very life is taken from you.

So count the costs, this is a bigger fight and the pandemic is but a piece of a bigger puzzle. The crucial piece that will affect everyones lives.

Thank you medclinician for spurring me on. Thank you for reminding me of the bigger picture. I have counted the cost and I am ready to go on searching for the truth. I also realize that I march to the tune of a different drummer, and that is ok, that is my role and it has been for a long, long time.

May God have mercy on us all.


Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 6:59am

MC,

Your post is not falling on deaf ears.  Yet I see what you are saying as only the begging as to what to expect here AFT as more and more people jump on for the ride.  This forum in some weird way could be viewed as social experiment where complete strangers are drawn together and attempt to find a solution to a common cause.  Essentially this is a world here with little rules of engagement and thanks to the ever patient Albert, we are free to be here and contribute as each sees fit .  We then can expect to see personality conflicts, power struggles and the whole range of emotions. 

What I find so interesting here is the human element that has emerged within a forum that provides such an impersonal existance.  Avatars and handles that project alter ego images of the person posting you might expect afford the person an opportunity to be something they are not.  This I have seen happen alot.  More so the responsibility that handle can bring with the expectations of authority or expertise implied by that handle, of which you have personally experienced the trouble that perceived expectations can bring.
 
Here we are together like the kids in the book Catcher in the Rye or the TV show Lost, we are here left to our own devices and some how a forum with the intent to provide essential information, has emerged beyond it's purpose into a psycho therapists worst nightmare.
 
All that aside, I myself have seen my tenure here as a typical experience and I find it amusing to see it come full circle as I'm sure many here have seen 10 times over.  I lurked here since February mainly copying posts for future reference.  Months later I registered and started to post.  Like most newbies you repeat stories, editorialize, vent and at times freak others out.  Hand up!I'm guilty as charged!  But as time goes on you change.  The sages of this forum, the ones who have been here the longest who have experienced it all are leading examples of the wisdom that comes with staying the course here.  They are the ballast that keeps this ship upright and I'm sure it is a strenuous and arduous task.  I am grateful for everyones hard and dilligent contributions and we all simply have to accept others for who they are and what they bring to the table so we don't get mired down in socio politcial squabbles.   So off we go where there are no roads. mind if I ride shotgun?
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 7:34am
I had my two cups of coffee as I read MC's post.  Been sitting here thinking of how to respond in a semi literate manner.  Thankfully, Cruiser was able to take the lead.  My only concern in our big brave new internet world is that individuals are able to post anything.  As stated, we need to be as vigilant in posting 'bloggers' reports as we are 'standard media' reports.  One tends to be too conservative while the other can be 'alarmist'.  My opinions on any given day are tied directly to my emotional response at the time.  On a 'bad' news days, the tendency to let my worries and fears infringe on my posts must be constantly monitored.  I try to review my posts several times before pressing the post button.  Learned this lesson fast soon after joining this forum.  Some of my first posts were over the top emotionally and I had a quick hard lesson that talking to someone in person and communicating with just words are very very different.  The little emoticons help but the inflections and tone are not there.  This forum is the first I have ever joined and I also feel like I've gotten to know many of the people here.  If someone has not posted for a while, I wonder where they are.  Still think of Kilt everyday and hope he is doing fine. 
 
Just my thoughts
GG
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 8:08am
Originally posted by standingfirm standingfirm wrote:


Look at Steve Centanni and Olaf Wiig who have to convert to Islam to be freed. We cannot overlook the deeper meaning to this action and there are implications for all, eventually. That is the heart of the mark of the beast, they may not know what they are doing if they accept it. Never ever accept that mark even if it means you will remain a captive, or that your very life is taken from you.


 
Standingfirm,
 
I have to strongly disagree with you on this one. Having been trained by the US military on how to survive being a POW, I can tell you that military personnel are bound by a code of conduct while in captivity, and I always agreed with that that code and pledged to abide by it. However, the two FOX news people are not. they have not been trained, nor are they bound by any code of conduct. Their primary concern should be to survive captivity and return home, no matter what it takes. Converting to Islam to gain release to go home so that their kids can grow up with a father is the right thing to do. A meaningless lie to criminals and meaningless coversion to Islam under duress is meaningless in my opinion and has no undesirable consequences, just meaningless words to evil people. It doesn't change their religious beliefs and would be a tool to use to gain release. They are at a severe disadvantage being captives and should use whatever means are available to remain alive and gain release, including lying. Convert to Islam, go home, give your kids a dad while they are growing up, or die and have your kids grow up without a dad. I know what choice I would make without hesitation. When faced with dealing with dishonest, bent people that have full control of you in a non-legitimate situation, sometimes you must be dishonest to gain the upper hand. yes the means can justify the end.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 10:39am
Dittoes, Mach Clap

Sorry sf, but the true evil would be to sacrifice the happiness and future of your family because you are afraid to say a few false words.

Words are only sounds, they cannot change who you are or what you believe.

I love my family more than I love the kind of meaningless heroism you describe.  I love my life more than I love a few false 'sounds' delivered to evildoers.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 10:59am
I could moralize on this and this is the wrong place for it. I am willing to die for what I believe in for my country and for my faith in God and Christ. That is my choice. What others do, is theirs.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 11:14am
To defend Mach, he was not suggesting at all that it is defensible to give out military secrets to escape.  He was defending a very natural, and very human, decision to declare a falsehood to save one's own life.

To criticize an individual, such as Steve Centannni, for choosing his own life when his deed caused no one harm is despicable.  Even if sf and MedClinician would have chosen otherwise does not make Centanni less for choosing diferently.  I guess you two are much better christians than the 95% of believers who would say this little lie to save their own life and possibly go on to live full, meaningful existences that could have a profound influence on others.  I find this kind of holier than thou attitude offensive.

Most people know that christian martyrs choose to die instead of do what centanni did.  Why do you insist that Centanni be a christian martyr?  Has he declared himself thus?
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 11:17am
medclinician, why did you delete your previous post instead of addressing my comments?
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 11:20am
I know, albert, you will think this is off topic, but really it isn't - this isn't a discussion about religion, this is a discussion about the morality of behavior when under duress, as we may face when confronted by hungery neighbors, police and military seeking to force military service, etc.

WHat will we say and do to preserve our own life?  What are the limits?  We must all explore this and know the answers for when the time comes.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by GulfCoastMama GulfCoastMama wrote:

To defend Mach, he was not suggesting at all that it is defensible to give out military secrets to escape.  He was defending a very natural, and very human, decision to declare a falsehood to save one's own life.

To criticize an individual, such as Steve Centannni, for choosing his own life when his deed caused no one harm is despicable.  Even if sf and MedClinician would have chosen otherwise does not make Centanni less for choosing diferently.  I guess you two are much better christians than the 95% of believers who would say this little lie to save their own life and possibly go on to live full, meaningful existences that could have a profound influence on others.  I find this kind of holier than thou attitude offensive.

Most people know that christian martyrs choose to die instead of do what centanni did.  Why do you insist that Centanni be a christian martyr?  Has he declared himself thus?
 
I am willing to post some on this with you. I respect your beliefs and your comments, and in rereading this I felt in someways like I do when I go to a family Thanksgiving Dinner and we began to discuss, during dinner, politics, drug use, drinking, smoking, and religion.
 
I read Atlas Shrugged many years ago. I am familiar with Ayn, I may have in my younger days even spoken to her. I am often teased about having spoken to just about everyone.  So, as I used to then, I used to push my plate aside, settle back, and comment on beliefs. This is comment and one of the basis of heated or even non-heated discussion is when people have vastly different basic assumptions concerning reality and such.
 
I was raised to be a minister. Went to some Bible College, and even last week, we go to a Black Congregation was told I had "the calling" and was like Jonah running away from Ninevah.
 
Despite the fact the bible has some problems in certain areas (Where in world did all those people come from in Genesis when Cain went to find a wife?) Reading the Bible in Hebrew and Greek, and wondering what King James had in mind when most of the translators where under penalty of death to produce a Bible which would conform to the religous beliefs of that time, I believe in a person type God(a being), heaven, angels, the entire basic Christian mind set.
 
I don't believe miracles only happened 2000 years ago. I think people can be healed now. I believe in most things that atheists and agnostics find particiularly ignorant and foolish even though I am a highly educated person. The pastor of our church has a Phd in Theology.
 
Now, I look back 3,000 years and whether I was Jewish, Christian, or Muslim, it clear to me that people were willing to die for their faith and their countries. People still are.
 
I grew up in an era where some people did not believe in the draft. Some people did not believe in the war. People did not believe in the President. Women did not believe in the basic society I was raised in and everyone protested. I volunteered to join the Army.
 
Draft cards were burned, bras were burned, people fled to Canada to avoid going to war, and people began to frown as they read the words
"In God We Trust" on the money, and began to complain about prayers in schools and abortions and proposed a host of other new ways of changing our country and laws.
 
Politicians responded. Women politicians arose when there were none before, the glass ceiling shattered, and now at the highest levels of government and power things have changed. There are women ministers in our church.
 
My mom was a housewife. She loved my dad who worked hard (14 hrs a day came home  coated with sweat so that the salt crusted on his workshirt) to provide for us. She was happy. She loved to polish the tile in the bathroom, write her books and poetry, cook dinner, dress up for church, sing and pray and visit the sick and blind and old people. Life was simple.
 
No more. There were more % of Christians then  and more % of marriages. I watched "Leave it to Beaver" and wanted to be like "Commander Cody" and "Superman." Truth, justice, and the American way.
 
I read the Bible. I studied it. I loved it. Like in the song
 
"What if God were one of us, just a stranger on the bus
  If God had a face what would it look like
  And would you want to see
  If seeing meant that you would have to believe
  In things like heaven and in Jesus and the saints and all the prophets."
                                                                      Joan Osborne
 
So we have a new age. People talk about the Bible, the prophets, miracles, faith, healing; but though the Presidents will go to church, if someone came and said "You know I talked to God today and he spoke back - you would be considered insane."
 
I wanted to be a preacher. I helped build a church and did missionary work. I believe people can be healed. I also believe that we are at a point if your faith conflicts with medicine as we know it, they will get a court order and medicine will win.
 
You don't see a lot of doctors praying over people in prayer groups at the bedside Maybe a chaplain will come in and pray for you.
 
But, and I mean no disrespect to anyone, I go to a very spiritual black congregation and when they worship on Sunday, it lasts for 3 hours. And they sing, and they pray, and they minister, and they would scare some people no doubt. But when I leave there, I feel a joy and a happiness inside that sometimes brings me to tears.
 
Who am I to tell someone else what to believe in? Who am I to tell someone how to live their lives or what to sacrifice. When I went in during Vietnam, I was ready to die. I mean it. In my company they ask us where do you want to go, and we said everywhere, like Hawaii and in the states, and our orders all read the same word. Vietnam.
 
I have plenty of beams in my own eye. I don't need to be casting any splinters. I don't want to see anyone go to the bad place, and peace is important and to maintain peace, and God would have it so - each person must make their own choice as to what they believe.
 
I live as an example of what I believe in. My life is my testimony of my faith.
Even Peter himself denied Jesus three times. So, in the same situation I would pray for strength and make my decision. How would I do? In my heart I feel I would be strong, but I am only so strong. Would I want my daughter yet unborn to remember her father as a Christian who gave his life for his faith? Would that be an act of stupidity.
 
Obviously men and women throughout thousands of years have not believed this. Saints have looked up in ecstacy as they were burnt alive.
It is all a matter of what you believe. Should any man or woman be called to give their life for country or their God? Is that old fashioned? Is it - mental?
 
As Paul said, if what we believe in is not true, then we of all men are most miserable.  We are indeed fools to the world.
 
I am not sorry that I hate lies. I am not sorry that I do not choose a morality that is flexible where we are told "there is a time to lie and in business and in the world people lie everyday." This is wrong. No lies, no deceipt, no betrayal at any level. That is how I believe.
 
If they told Martin Luther King to dress up as a Klu Klux Clansman and tar and feather a black man so he wouldn't be tortured to death and his wife who survived him to perform a great ministry for God and her race, would he have done it? If Jesus had said, no, I want to be with Mary Magdelene and raise a family and I can teach God's word much better rather than a person dying  3 years after my ministry began. He had the choice.
 
You see. I knew I would write all of this if I replied to you. I am not ashamed of my beliefs. Yet as some Muslims, or even Christians in history I do not wish to kill others to force them to accept my religion. The extremists will. If you believe that for a Christian to deny their faith in Jesus Christ and God is just a few insignficant words which mean nothing because of the pressure, then visit the Roman Collesium. I have been there. Walk through the places they kept the lions. Go beneath the cities and see a whole crypt built with nothing but the bones of martyrs.
 
I am not ashamed and I will not condemn those who may not choose to carry the cross some of us may be asked to bear. If our country were invaded, it may come to become Muslim, or die. That is certainly the way it began.
 
These are beliefs. I believe in Jesus, and God, and all the saints and the prophets in their glory, and it gives me chills to even say it. That is my choice. And I would die for it. We came to America so each one has the freedom to do so. Sadly in other countries, it is not so. I do not want live in those other countries nor do I want the United States to become like them; where I would be called to give my life for my faith.
 
I am afraid for America. We need to get back to our roots, back to what our country is founded upon. That is my.. opinion and my deepest beliefs.
 
There are choices that make senses to the head, choices that feel right to the heart, and choices that go beyond both to our very souls and core of our being.
 
 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 1:03pm
MedClinician, I have respect for the sincerity of your opinions and beliefs.  I have no interest in changing them, as I do not even know you.  I only take exception to the tone of the post (which, thankfully you deleted) in which you implied that there is something wrong with these men for not choosing to die as a martyr.  Sf's post was concerning their pretend conversion to Islam as an example of how the world is going to hell in a handbasket. 

I, as you, abhor lying.  However, the question I have for you is: Is it evil during a pandemic to tell your neighbors seeking food that you have none, as you save that last bag of beans to save your own children? is it evil for the united states to spy (i.e. lie) on it's enemies? Is it wrong if we choose to misrepresent things to North Korea, to the Soviet Union during the cold war, to Germany and Japan during WWII?  Do you doubt that all of these instances are fraught with lies to protect American lives?   Were our leaders evil during WWII, when lies, in the guise of military strategy, allowed us to succceed on the beaches of normandy? Is it evil for us to lie to our enemies if it would prevent another 9/11?  Would you lie to Usama Bin Laden if it would stop him from murdering innocents?  There is only one appropriate answer here.  Most people reading this post know what it is.

Again, I am not trying to change your mind.  I am simply defending the morality of this poor' man's decision, which you both so readily attack.  I understand that you have great 'qualifications' for making moral decisions, as you feel the need to outline these for us.  But there is another perspective, a morality that considers the preservation of INNNOCENT LIFE as the primary. 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by mach mach wrote:

Originally posted by standingfirm standingfirm wrote:


Look at Steve Centanni and Olaf Wiig who have to convert to Islam to be freed. We cannot overlook the deeper meaning to this action and there are implications for all, eventually. That is the heart of the mark of the beast, they may not know what they are doing if they accept it. Never ever accept that mark even if it means you will remain a captive, or that your very life is taken from you.


 
Standingfirm,
 
I have to strongly disagree with you on this one. Having been trained by the US military on how to survive being a POW, I can tell you that military personnel are bound by a code of conduct while in captivity, and I always agreed with that that code and pledged to abide by it. However, the two FOX news people are not. they have not been trained, nor are they bound by any code of conduct. Their primary concern should be to survive captivity and return home, no matter what it takes. Converting to Islam to gain release to go home so that their kids can grow up with a father is the right thing to do. A meaningless lie to criminals and meaningless coversion to Islam under duress is meaningless in my opinion and has no undesirable consequences, just meaningless words to evil people. It doesn't change their religious beliefs and would be a tool to use to gain release. They are at a severe disadvantage being captives and should use whatever means are available to remain alive and gain release, including lying. Convert to Islam, go home, give your kids a dad while they are growing up, or die and have your kids grow up without a dad. I know what choice I would make without hesitation. When faced with dealing with dishonest, bent people that have full control of you in a non-legitimate situation, sometimes you must be dishonest to gain the upper hand. yes the means can justify the end.


I respect your opinion mach on a military level and a non-spiritual level. There is another level here that may or may not be applicable to this specific situation. However, having said that and emphasized it, there may come a time when the choice to convert may have a profound effect on the convertee spiritually. Converting to Islam cannot be acceptable EVER if it means that the person is denying their saving faith in Jesus Christ.

Many, many men and women have died as martyrs and have seen their children murdered before their very eyes in order to remain steadfast in their faith. When that time comes may we all be strengthened enough to stand true to our beliefs up to and including the moment of our death.

One look through Foxes Book of Martys will bear witness to what I am saying. For me personally I denounce anything that denies Jesus Christ has come in the flesh born of a virgin fully God and fully man, died for our sins, was resurrected and now sits on His throne in heaven waiting for His second return. Everything else is anathema and I cannot embrace it or even allude that it has any truth. That is just my way of looking at it.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 2:10pm
I read medclinicians post after i answered mach's.

GulfCoastMama: there is never a justification for lying. It tears at trust and the moral fabric of our society. Is it hard to tell the truth...you bet. Am I on a moral pedestal no. I have learned through what I have experienced, where I stand in my life journey and I, like medclinician, am not asking you or anyone else to choose as I choose. But, making these choices for myself, I feel the choices that I am making are right and correct, or why make them? All I can comment on is why I would or would not choose a specific course of action and I would not have made the choice that Steve and Olag made even though I understand their position. I pray that I am never in the position that they were in but something tells me many of us may be one day, as the Bible tells us that the time of the tribulation will be very much like this. Convert or die. This is why I risk rejection, even here, to explain this crucial point. There is a way out before that choice confronts any of us personally and that involves working on knowing who you would be denying in the future right now.

Also, after choosing once, when that time is actually at hand, there is no turning back. I am not saying that this is where Steve and Olag choice led them but this situation was the precursor, the opening salvo, in a much broader and far-reaching battle.

Those in the middle east live their faith and they also know ours. That is the reason why they had them convert. It was not a meaningless gesture. We in the west do not live our faith as they do, and most will not see this as a meaningful statement or gesture until it is too late.


We are getting in deep now medclinician!
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by GulfCoastMama GulfCoastMama wrote:


I, as you, abhor lying.  However, the question I have for you is: Is it evil during a pandemic to tell your neighbors seeking food that you have none, as you save that last bag of beans to save your own children? is it evil for the united states to spy (i.e. lie) on it's enemies? Is it wrong if we choose to misrepresent things to North Korea, to the Soviet Union during the cold war, to Germany and Japan during WWII?  Do you doubt that all of these instances are fraught with lies to protect American lives?   Were our leaders evil during WWII, when lies, in the guise of military strategy, allowed us to succceed on the beaches of normandy? Is it evil for us to lie to our enemies if it would prevent another 9/11?  Would you lie to Usama Bin Laden if it would stop him from murdering innocents?  There is only one appropriate answer here.  Most people reading this post know what it is.

 
This forum is rather unique in that it has, unlike many forums I have seen, allows us to hold vastly diverse opinions, discuss them, and remain friends and respectful of each other.
 
I will be the first to openly declare that we all continue learning and growing throughout life. Just as Shakespeare had his 18 or so universal plots, there are classic questions. And I won't belabor this too much, but it can be summed up to the effect "if you saw Hitler in a crib, and you did not believe you should ever kill, knowing what he would become and do, would you, kill him?"
 
Thank God, we face less complex questions here in the Avian forum... but do we? Maybe not. What if the results from the recent Avian tests in Michigan come back positive for high path? Three countries have banned poultry imports, a positive test would certainly be defined by some as a threat to our national security. Moralistic choice - say nothing or figure out some highly convoluted logic - Well part is H and and part is N and the .... until people are confused to the point where 3 countries lift the sanctions, Tyson continues cranking out meat products, and unless it goes truly human high path (which there is a chance of) we have a concept of what many people almost at every level are guilty of, I will call the "benign lie." This is based on another principle that due to the existence of dishonest people, not only nations, but politicians and  persons, no one could  ever be 100% truthful to anyone, including their own family.
 
Now, let's get back to Avian. Where is the line in the sand? Anotherwards, if we are on the verge of a Pandemic, how much "lieness" should be considered necessary, before we are told the truth, and how much credibility will be lost when little untruths told "for our own good" without our involvement in deciding what "is for our own good" will blow our entire social order?
 
Understand, if some hanky panky in the oval office with an aide sexually would push us to a a  grueling grand jury drama that occured; if spying on reporters and people who had to contact people in Europe without warrants and thei*r knowledge is hitting the supreme court with a vengeance, "benign lies" turn into unbenign headaches and can be the downfall of whole departments and politicians.
 
I find this very confusing. I have very medical people tell me that we only face a possibility of 1% of a pandemic and I see what happened in the Bubonic plague when 1/3 of Europe died.
 
I think one of the foundations of this forum is truth.  We can talk morality of untruth, but when it comes to Avian, the people here want to know the truth. They can turn on the media if they want lies. Today Mexico will start importing Pennsylvania poultry which has been banned for 18 months.  I wasn't aware it had even been banned for the last year and a half.
 
Now here is one final question for you. The neighbor. The one asking you if you had any food. Let's say you are here in the heart of the bible belt almost where everyone shares just about everything (sometimes too much so).  They know your philosophy. They know that to save your family even if you had food you would lie. They also know, if you were, a true Christian as in telling the truth to a fault, and you said I don't have any food, you did not and quite possibly would just walk away.  On the other hand we have people that are not Chrisitan and the survival of their family is more important than yours - no sacrificing for others - just survival.
 
On the other hand, suspecting you were lying they broke in fully armed and killed everyone and took the food... such questions can turn around.
 
My wife has just chimed in what she would do. She said she would
"tell them the truth. Say yes, I have food, you can't have it (we do not share the same religious beliefs) and if you try to take it, I will kill you.
 
She may not be religious, but she is honest.
 
 
 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 3:10pm
MedClinician,
 
I had an inkling you were getting an up front view of avian when you mentioned a while back about using different IP addresses. I had a very clear thought that you were on the front lines looking across and giving us a bird's eye view. I think that is why I asked where you were -- I was hoping you would return to give us a view of your journey. I am sorry for all the waves it may have caused, but you spoke to them with timeless wisdom.
 
Having said that, you have spoken a lot of truths that most can relate to. I do believe that many grasshoppers exist while ants tread quietly for the good of mankind. I thought that analogy you used a while back was pretty powerful. It has stuck with me ever since.
 
I hope my journey here at AFT will honor me by helping just one fellow American better prepare for what maybe be the challenge of a lifetime. If I have accomplished that, then my purpose here on this forum will have been served. My work continues -- in tandem -- with fellow members as we map out the future in understanding and responding to pandemic influenza. Thank you for pointing out the narrow road in what is certain to be a challenging journey. It is a road worth acknowledging and discussing beforehand. And, a road which will be the test of a lifetime. Argyll.
 
Thanks for your inspirational and educational posts. Regards, Argyll.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 3:27pm
Here is some good news regarding the journalist
 

Fox journalists released in Gaza Strip, ending hostage ordeal

AP 

(8/27/06 - GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip) - Militants freed two Fox News journalists on Sunday in the Gaza Strip, ending a nearly two week hostage drama in which one of the former captives said they were forced at gunpoint to make statements, including that they had converted to Islam.


Also on ABC13.com:
Send news tips | RSS | ABC13 E-lert | Info mentioned on air | Search abc13.com

Correspondent Steve Centanni, 60, of Washington, D.C., and cameraman Olaf Wiig, 36, of New Zealand, were dropped off at Gaza City's Beach Hotel by Palestinian security officials. A tearful Centanni briefly embraced a Palestinian journalist in the lobby, then rushed upstairs with Wiig behind him.

The pair, who appeared to be in good health, then met with Palestinian officials, including Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh. The three men sat in a circle of chairs at the hotel, before the journalists held a news conference, then left and crossed into Israel.

"I want to thank everybody. I am happy to be here. I hope that this never scares a single journalist away from coming to Gaza to cover the story because the Palestinian people are very beautiful and kind hearted," Centanni told reporters. "The world needs to know more about them. Don't be discouraged."

Wiig also said he was worried that the kidnapping would scare off reporters.

"My biggest concern really is that as a result of what happened to us foreign journalists will be discouraged from coming to tell the story and that would be a great tragedy for the people of Palestine," Wiig said. "You guys need us on the streets, and you need people to be aware of the story."

Wiig's wife, Anita McNaught, thanked Palestinian officials and Fox News for their efforts in getting the men released. The men refused to take questions, then traveled to the Erez and left Gaza.

In a phone call with Fox News, Centanni said that during his capture, he was held at times face down in a dark garage, tied up in painful positions, and that he and Wiig were forced at gunpoint to make statements, including that they had converted to Islam.

"I'm a little emotional because this is overwhelming, but I'm fine," Centanni said. "I'm so happy to be freed."

The journalists had been seized in Gaza City on Aug. 14 by a previously unknown group calling itself the Holy Jihad Brigades. However, senior Palestinian security officials said Sunday the name was a front for local militants, and that Palestinian authorities had known the identity of the kidnappers from the start.

Haniyeh also confirmed the kidnappers were from Gaza, squashing speculation that al-Qaida had directed the abduction. "The kidnappers have no link to al-Qaida or any other organization or faction," Haniyeh said. "Al-Qaida as an organization does not exist in the Gaza Strip."

In the past two years, Palestinian militants have seized more than two dozen foreigners, usually to settle personal scores, but released them unharmed within hours. The Fox journalists had been held longest.

It remained unclear whether the kidnappers had ties to Hamas or the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a violent offshoot of Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah movement. A third group, the Popular Resistance Committees, claimed Sunday it had helped mediate the release of the journalists.

In chaotic Gaza, gunmen often change their affiliation or form splinter groups. Their agendas are often driven by personal issues, including jobs and power for their clans, rather than by ideology.

Haniyeh was evasive Sunday when asked whether he would try to arrest the kidnappers. Before Hamas ousted Fatah in March, it had frequently criticized the Fatah-led Palestinian Authority for cutting deals with kidnappers and letting them go without punishment.

It was not clear whether a deal had been struck with the kidnappers of the Fox journalists. The kidnappers initially demanded the release of all Muslims imprisoned by the U.S. by midnight Saturday (5 p.m. EDT) in exchange for the journalists.

The Hamas-led Palestinian Authority had insisted it had no clue about the identity of the kidnappers.

However, in recent days, Hamas government officials signaled that the release of the journalists was imminent and that they had won assurances from the kidnappers that the hostages were being treated well.

On Sunday, before the journalists' release, a new video was released, showing Wiig and Centanni dressed in beige Arab-style robes. Wiig delivered an anti-Western speech, his face expressionless and his tone halting. The kidnappers claimed both men had converted to Islam.

Several hours later, the two men were dropped off at the Beach Hotel, wearing Western-style clothing. Wiig walked into the lobby behind Centanni, briefly turned when someone pulled him by the arm and shouted "get off" before heading upstairs.

"We were forced to convert to Islam at gunpoint," Centanni later told Fox. "Don't get me wrong here. I have the highest respect for Islam, and I learned a lot of good things about it, but it was something we felt we had to do because they had the guns, and we didn't know what the hell was going on."

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 3:39pm
When talking about the truth......remember this...
Whatever you believe to be true, is true to YOU.  That your perception is your perception but only your perception.  Therefore your perception is your reality or your truth.    What maybe a lie for one could be a truth for another, depending on their perception of reality.   Meaning the map is not the territory, it is only a map.  Thought happens with a certain structure or what our senses allow us molded by our belief systems, but thought is only a map, it's not the territory or the worldly version of reality. 
 
 
Medclinician, I am just glad you are back.  I thought you were going to be gone for some reason.  It scared me a little.  Please share with us, when you have talked with Michael Osterholm.  Yes, it was a two cups of java post, but it was a great two cups, another one to read other's responses.
 
Medclinician, I feel like you are trying to tell us something and that your posts are hinting at something.  Like you are leaving clues. 
 
I agree we are watching history unfold.   Two examples of history that compare to this was 9/11 and the Berlin Wall coming down.  There are many others, but those left me just speechless.
 
9/11 forever changed the American way of life and this pandemic will be something like that to our whole planet, as humans.  I pray that we learn through this and grow and bond together and that when it's all over in the  end that we as a people become a more humanitarian society.
 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 3:57pm
Oh and one more thing Medclinician - Your wife, I like her.  Honest and spoken like a true pregnant woman.  Don't mess with pregnant woman.  I found humor in her comments.
 
Yes, I will would like to see a humanitarian society.  But her comments were just good, anyway.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 4:06pm
Wenmalon: Does that mean that there is no absolute truth and anything goes for behavior and belief as long as someone is true to themselves? There is only accountability to yourself
or

Is there an absolute standard that we must govern our lives by, every action coming under the spotlight of this standard?
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 4:31pm
I believe that actions are the only reality or truth.  Good actions are things that are tangible and real.  Where our thoughts could be something that we just made up......it's not reality.   Realize that our imaginations run us.  That's why billions of dollars have been made on this fact, "People make their decisions based upon emotion later justified by intellect."
 
I believe that Good morals translate into good actions.  Actions are reality, thought without action is irrational and not real.
 
An example of this would be ....my niece she's 8 years old, she said,  "Aunt Wendy let's play pretend.  Let's pretend that we are in a jungle and we are surrounded by tigers, and they are hungry and growling alot.  What would you do?"  
 
I said, "Well, you couldn't run, because that would trigger in their mind that you are prey, they would chase you and out run you.  I suppose I would stand really still and pray alot."
 
She rolled her eyes at me and said, "I wouldn't do that."
 
I asked her what she would do.  She said, "I'd stop pretending there's tigers."
 
An example of someone who is letting their imaginiation run you, and an example of someone who is in reality and their thoughts are connected to actions.
 
I would never say because Truth could possibly be a figment of our imagination based upon our perceptions that it should be one big free for all.    What I am saying is two people could have two very different perceptions of an event both could be truthful yet contradictory to each other.  We always have to question our perceptions as matching reality.  It's just human nature.........Reality happens at a rate of something like 5 Gigabytes per second, our brains process only about 2 bytes per second. 
 
That's why DNA Testing is such a good thing.  Innocent people are being let out of prison, because an eye witness may not have perceived things right. 
 
Child testimony is the most accurate because they aren't so caught up in their own heads that they are better observers of reality.   As illustrated in the tiger story.
 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 4:43pm
I respect Medclinician and standing firms view points, and I understand that you do not consider them viewpoints. i respect your steadfastnest to morallity and honesty. however i ask you this.
 
I wasn't talking about actually converting to islam. i was talking about lieing about it. Just like when your spouse says, do i look fat? When you praise your children for a less than perfect performance. these are lies. But the good of the 'little white lie' outways any harm if any that is done to your spirit. It is better to lie than crush someones feelings. The truth does more harm than good. There is  no harm in telling the criminal what needs to be told in order to have your kids have a dad. I am a deeply spiritual person and am the most honest person I know. In the miltary I was willing to risk death and capture  in the battle to accomplish the mission and protect others, (afer exhasuting all chances to win while living I might add). I ask you if faced with a similair situation and you have two choices which is worse.
 
1. Lie to  the evil and murderous kidnapping terrorist about coverting to islam under duress and ask God for forgiveness later...and go home to your family and be there for your children as they grow up and pray to be forgiven ...and provide intel to the US miltary so they can hunt down those people and make sure they don't kidknap again.or
 
2. Keep your moriality and brutal honesty intact and don't lie to the evil and murderess kidnapping terrorist and have your young children have to grow up without a dad, knowing he was beheaded by terrorists and the video spread around the internet for other terrorists to enjoy, or see pictures of their dads dead body hanging from a bridge beheaded and swinging in the breeze while people in the street throw rocks at it. After your dead, who askes for forgiveness for the lifelong phycological and emotional harm that you did to your wife and children by refusing to compromise your integrity by lying to a group of evil, dishonest, murderous terrorists that don't deserve the truth anyway. Who askes for forgivenss when they do it again to someone else because you didn't survive to provide the good guys with intel to stop them.
 
I ask you, which option does more harm to your spirit and your loved ones? Which option better shows Gods will on earth?
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 4:54pm
Very good point, Mach.  Thanks for clarifying this so vividly.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 5:05pm
What if they had said if you don't say you convert to Islam they would kill your family or launch a nuclear weapon on the US.
 
I believe that God forgives and knows your heart.
 
How many people go to church and claim to be Christians and are baptized but their heart is not true?
 
Is it your heart that will save you or the words that you claim in public?
 
 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 6:48pm

Wenmalon: I agree that pretending that the ravenous tigers are not waiting to devour you does not negate the fact that they are out there waiting to pounce. Our example of preparing for avian flu demonstrates through our actions that, while some may turn away because they don’t want to look at the reality that this is bearing down on us, this will not stop this pandemic in its tracks. They can imagine all sorts of ideas based upon their preconceived notions of whatever, that doesn’t change the reality that this is coming. They can have very different perceptions of this event, but truth remains and will win out in the end. Whether people prepare or not does not change the end result. So in this example actions do not change the truth.

“What I am saying is two people could have two very different perceptions of an event both could be truthful yet contradictory to each other.”

While their perceptions of the truth may differ, the truth remains consistent, it is truth. Truth does not rely upon ones perception. Perception does not define truth. Truth is in a league of its own. A perception of truth may explain the circumstance surrounding participation in an event but the truth of what transpires still remains. Thus seemingly contradictory evidence may, in fact, be part of the bigger picture of truth.

The example of DNA evidence bears this out. DNA evidence can prove that at some point there was a transfer of human material, it cannot prove when that transfer took place. It would be more reliable to be able to rely on the eyewitness account if you new that the eyewitness valued truth even though their perception of an event may be skewed. There is opinion in perception but truth still remains. C and D see A kill B. The truth is that B is dead even if C and D differ on motive and device.

In life there is a deeper and permanent truth. Even if we disagree on what that truth is, it still remains that there is a truth in life. We can argue that there is no soul. That does not change the truth of the soul’s existence. We will know whose perception was right in the end or we will not. We cannot argue, for instance that there absolutely are no absolutes. Likewise, if truth is relative, there is no truth.

So now we are faced with the truth of the existence of a moral absolute. Is there a moral absolute? The relativist would say that” there is no absolute truth and you should not impose your perception of truth upon me. Right and wrong is what I determine it to be for myself”. This would result in absolute anarchy. Wait, there are no absolutes. This is what society is falling for. For instance, perversion is currently being redefined from a relativist perception. Once upon a time, sex with minors was considered perverse and a crime against society. Now the very nature of perversion is being redefined and in some localities the laws on the books have been changed to protect those having sex with minors. But this is ok because the perception of morality has changed? No, of course not! But this is our society of moral relativism and there are no absolutes.

“I believe that Good morals translate into good actions.  Actions are reality, thought without action is irrational and not real.”

Whose good morals are we to follow? Neighbor on the right may have different morals than neighbor on the left. Without absolute truth or absolute morality there is no penalty for those whose actions infringe on your right to rational behavior according to your perception of what is good.

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 7:05pm
Hey Standingfirm:  Thanks for the thoughtful feedback.  It is very good.  I m a very spiritual person and found your post just wonderful and had great questions that I cannot answer.
 
Realize that I believe that this thing is coming, with or without my eight year old nieces sweet metaphor or not.  I have the storage room to prove it.  So I very much agree with that.
 
My grandma always had an old saying, "Truth is like cream, it always floats to the top."  I agree.
 
As far as good morals to follow, I think the 10 commandments outline it pretty well.  I think we can both agree.
 
I thank you  for this little debate.   You have such true convictions and your handle is appropriate! 
 
My hopes were to ask the question, "What is the truth and according to whom?  Should we always trust what we think or is it better to go inside find other persepectives and do a double check."
 
They say when you take a multiple choice test, your first choice is most likely the right answer.  I would have to agree with that at the same time, I do often ask the question, "Am I perceiving this right?"
 
Thanks again and your take on everything will stay with me for a very long time.   Best wishes, Wendy
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 7:15pm
Mach: Our actions always have to stand for the truth. What we do always has meaning.

Say you are driving down the road at a high rate of speed with all your kids in the car and you get pulled over. Its tense because you know, with kids in the car, you going to be socked with a major, whopping ticket (and rightfully so). You get pulled over and you are mad, mostly at yourself, because you can't afford to pay more for insurance and the ticket is going to drive the cost up. Little Johnny will have to stop Karate lessons and Janie will have to stop dance. So when you roll down the window and the officer asks you if you knew how fast you were going you lie this bald face lie about some emergency, you even manage to bring tears to your eyes. He sees the kids in the car and he tells you to slow down in the future and he gives you a verbal warning. Ahhh, you made it and you are on your way. Then later that day, while you are up in your room you hear a crash and a yell but when you get downstairs the only creature around is the dog who is wagging her tail. You know that the dog didn't do it. You ask all the kids and none of them own up to it. Finally, months later, one admits to the accident and he tells you that he heard you lie to the officer so he thought it was ok to lie.

There are always people who are watching the actions of others. If we cannot stand up to this enemy and say boldly that I will NOT embrace what you believe, if that is the truth, then who will stand when the time comes? We are our brothers keepers and there are times that tough decisions have to be made in order to stand up for what is right and true.

Now, as for Steve and Olag, they may not see this as important. I do not know what they believe, they may even be of the Muslim faith so I misspoke above. The point that I was trying to make is that, at some point, every person has their time to stand for what they believe to be true, right and honorable. Some people only get one chance. Others have many opportunities. There will come a time, according to my faith belief, and that time is coming sooner rather than later, that each person on earth will have an opportunity to either accept or deny the truth of Jesus Christ. From that decision, sometimes our chances are gone since none of us know the hour of our death.

Say it was medclinician and I being held by those kidnappers and our choice as professing Christians was to deny Christ and convert to Islam. With a wink and a nod we could do that? I could not because as a Christian I live by this truth...

Matt 10:32-33 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.  NKJV
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 7:19pm
I wonder if Jesse Jackson sold his soul for the release of Centanni and Wiig?  Either way he will be a hero and so will they!
 

 

Jesse Jackson To Lead Middle East Delegation

Jackson To Meet With Political, Religious Leaders To Discuss Journalists' Kidnapping, Other Developments

(AP) CHICAGO The Rev. Jesse Jackson said Wednesday he will lead an ecumenical delegation to the Middle East this week to meet with political and religious leaders about about troubles in the region, including the kidnapping of two Fox News journalists.

Jackson, the veteran civil rights leader and head of the
Rainbow/PUSH Coalition, said the group would leave Chicago Friday night en route to meetings in Syria, Lebanon and Israel. He declined to release his planned itinerary because of security concerns.

"We had been working with the Middle Eastern Council of Churches, but couldn't get in earlier because of the bombings," Jackson said.

He said his delegation would consist of about ten people, representing Jewish, Muslim, Roman Catholic and Protestant groups.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,210645,00.html

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Two FOX News journalists were released by their kidnappers Sunday, nearly two weeks after they were taken hostage in the Gaza Strip.

Steve Centanni, 60, and Olaf Wiig, 36, left Gaza and have since crossed into Israel after their release. The men left Gaza through the Erez border crossing.

The freeing of Centanni, a correspondent, and Wiig, a cameraman, ends the longest-running drama involving foreign hostages in Gaza.

Click here for the latest news from the Mideast

The two journalists were dropped off at Gaza City's Beach Hotel by Palestinian security officials and appeared to be in good health. A tearful Centanni embraced a Palestinian journalist briefly as he entered, then rushed upstairs as Wiig followed.

Centanni, in a phone interview shortly after his release, said "I'm fine. I'm just so happy to be free."

He said he was so emotional because he was out and alive.

"There were times when I thought 'I'm dead,' and I'm not," Centanni said. "I'm fine. I'm so very happy."

(Story continues below)

He recounted how he and Wiig were pulled out of their car on August 14 and taken at gunpoint into another car. The kidnappers blindfolded them and handcuffed their hands behind their backs with plastic ties. They were then transferred to another car and driven to a building that they later learned was a garage.

"We were pushed down onto the dirt-covered concrete floor and we were forced to lie face down with our handcuffs on," Centanni said.

"Olaf was in the same room with me. Our shoulders were wrenched back, very painful."

Both of the men were forced to convert to Islam at gunpoint, Centanni said.

"We were forced to convert to Islam at gunpoint," Centanni told FOX News. "Don't get me wrong here. I have the highest respect for Islam, and I learned a lot of good things about it, but it was something we felt we had to do because they had the guns, and we didn't know what the hell was going on."

Centanni's brother, Ken, spoke to FOX News directly after the news was released.

"It's just a tremendous amount of relief, overwhelming relief," he said.

Later Sunday, Centanni and Wiig appeared before reporters, then traveled to the Erez crossing into Israel to leave Gaza.

"I want to thank everybody. I am happy to be here. I hope that this never scares a single journalist away from coming to Gaza to cover the story because the Palestinian people are very beautiful and kind hearted," Centanni told reporters. "The world needs to know more about them. Don't be discouraged."

Wiig also said he was worried that the kidnapping would scare off reporters.

"My biggest concern really is that as a result of what happened to us foreign journalists will be discouraged from coming to tell the story and that would be a great tragedy for the people of Palestine," Wiig said. "You guys need us on the streets, and you need people to be aware of the story."

Wiig's wife, Anita McNaught, thanked Palestinian officials and FOX News for their efforts in getting the men released. The men refused to take questions.

Before that, the two journalists made a joint appearance with Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas. Haniyeh, Centanni and Wiig sat in a circle of chairs at the Beach Hotel. Wiig was also accompanied by his wife.

The day had begun with promises by senior Palestinian officials that the two would be released in coming hours.

At the same time, before the journalists' release, a new video was released, showing Wiig and Centanni dressed in beige Arab-style robes. Wiig, of New Zealand, delivered an anti-Western speech, his face expressionless and his tone halting. The kidnappers claimed both men had converted to Islam.

The journalists had been seized in Gaza City on Aug. 14 by a previously unknown group calling itself the Holy Jihad Brigades. However, senior Palestinian security officials said Sunday the name was a front for local militants, and that Palestinian authorities had known the identity of the kidnappers from the start.

Haniyeh also confirmed the kidnappers were from Gaza, squashing speculation that Al Qaeda had directed the abduction. "The kidnappers have no link to Al Qaeda or any other organization or faction," Haniyeh said. "Al Qaeda as an organization does not exist in the Gaza Strip."

It remained unclear whether the kidnappers had ties to Hamas or the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a violent offshoot of Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah movement. A third group, the Popular Resistance Committees, claimed Sunday it had helped mediate the release of the journalists.

In chaotic Gaza, gunmen often change their affiliation or form splinter groups. Their agendas are often driven by personal issues, including jobs and power for their clans, rather than by ideology.

In the past two years, Palestinian militants have seized more than two dozen foreigners, usually to settle personal scores, but released them unharmed within hours. The holding of the FOX journalists had been the longest.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 7:20pm
Wendy, it is always wonderful to share with each other even when we disagree. This is why I like this forum. There is a deep respect for each other that is evident in the conversations here. We are not afraid to talk to each other about the difficult things.

Sorry it took so long to answer. I watched "The Listening" a truly creepy movie about the NSA...now I am going to go unplug all my phones (j/k) LOL


Thanks for making me think, my friend. You too mach and angie! Goodnight med...see you all in the a.m.

You too Cruiser, our posts crossed.

I am very, very glad that Steve and Olag are safe. When their first tape was released I looked at my husband and I was distraught, I cannot even begin to think what their families must have gone through too. The pain that we humans put each other through is not from God but from the enemy of our souls.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 8:56pm
Standingfirm,
 
I whole heartedly agree with what you said in your last post to me. our actions must always stand for the truth and our actions always have meaning. yet we are human and it is impossible to have a perfect record in that regard. Even Christ lost his cool and yelled and threw things in the temple when he saw corruption.
 
There comes a time when we must stand for what we believe. I agree completely, where I make a distinction is when I do that, it must have the result that I deem worthy. As one of commanders used to say, if you are going to fall on your sword, make it count. Some times it is better to accept defeat for the moment to live to fight another day to ensure victory over all. 
 
Making up a story to a cop to wiggle out of just punishment for something I did that was against the law would be wrong. having to pay for the ticket instead of lessons for the kids is only temporary, and not life long emotional trama for the kids. It will not ruin their lives.
 
Lying to a terrorist to escape an unjust, criminal and barbaric punishment of death at the hands of a terrorist is different. it is a matter of degree to me. The terrorists punishment of death to someone is unjust and not deserving. to lie in that situation has no dishonor because the punishment for telling the truth is unjust.  It may be very honorable and worthy to stand for a religious belief and accept death in that situation, but what good has come of that action. other than you didn't lie. I would rather save my ultimate action, my one time shot at glory on a spiritual level for a situation that would mean something more.
 
Life is full of choices, we hope we can make all the right ones, but we don't always succeed. you are right that every action you take has consequences, some more severe than others.
 
I tend to think there is no black and white, yes there is right and wrong, and the scripture helps us decide what is right and what is wrong, but at some point you have to make a decision in a particular situation, you can use the reference of scripture and hope you know the true meaning, you can use your preacher and hope he is correct and you can use your heart , mind and experience, you can use your soul, but the bottom line is you have to make a judgement and no-one else can do that for you. If you were always right in that regard, you would be without sin. You will not always be right. I judge many things by potential consequences of my actions.
 
The action of lying to kidnappers stands for what i believe. I believe they have no right to take that persons life under any circumstance. I therefore believe that being dishonest in that situation has  better overall consequences.
 
In the miltray we called it deception. To decieve the enemy commander to cause him to misallocate forces to help determine the desired outcome of a battle. In short lying so you can more easily kill the enemy in larger numbers. battle is based on it. When held captive by the enemy, it is your duty to deceive and overcome. I praise those 2 Fox news people for a job well done.
 
If we all stood up, professed our undeniable beliefs and allowed ourselves to surcum to the enemy, we would lose the war and the evil one would dominate.
 
Good and evil have been at war since time began, sometimes it is better to accept defeat ( tell a lie, in this case ) ina small battle so that that you can ensure victory in the war.
 
It's all about degree.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 9:10pm

"No one does anything wrong given their view of the world" (Conversations with God) - or as Shakespeare put it, "Each man is right in his own wisdom."

I agree with all of you.  Wenmalon, you had some excellent points on perception, and I admire everyone here for being true to what they believe.  Like you Mach, I think it's very hard to make this black and white.  To the journalists, saying they would convert to Islam may have had as much meaning as saying "abracadabra," and if it had no meaning to them, then they did the "right" thing and were true to themselves as well.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 9:52pm
I enjoyed reading members beliefs...  I have some strong ones myself.
 
If I found myself in that situation...forced conversion to remain alive,
I would have a conversation, Lord you know I'm lying to stay alive.
I would not deny my faith.  I agree with gettingready It meant little,
It isn't even logical that they would desire in any way, to convert to Islam.
 
Everyone read some of the Koran...  It requires the faithful to offer up conversion to Islam before they are allowed to kill you.
 
I believe the Iranian Pres. offered it up to our President Bush in a letter.
Correct me if I am wrong.
 
This gives a clue to Iranian intent, loud and clear.
 
 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2006 at 10:09pm

I feel as though patterns are being shared slowly and methodically in order to give us time, to "try them on for size" if you will. The whole fly fishing was a case in point -- it talked about the trials of being an industry bogged down by H5NI and red tape. It's almost as though we got a chance to peer into the experience of what it was like to have the entire security come down on your business.

I feel as though we are being measured with information and resized to make it fit the comfort level of the American public so that when the real deal is finally revealed, we won't panic and every one will follow directions.
 
So, now we have the federal government, homeland security, the HHS. the states, the governors, and now we are at the level of pandemic planning for indiviudals with the health departments state wide. Wonder what will be next? Could it be direct contact via newspaper, radio, service announcement ads. or perhaps an all out paper campaign? Oh == maybe even a direct phone call kind of like asking you to vote for so and so, but really we want you to " get prepared." I think the plan was designed and well thought out, but I still feel an urgency to get the word out to help prepare Americans while there is still time left. We are 2170 strong in membership here at AFT -- we could accomplish this and make a nice little dent in preparing the masses "beforehand."
 
Neighborhoods need leaders to emerge and lead the community -- a step below the health departments -- it would allow for the utmost personal contact and accountablity.
 
I may be wrong, but I belive the "flood the zone" is right around the next corner in your friendly neighborhood. Just my opinon, but I have noticed a pattern of communication that is directly a trickle down affect and which really does help Americans, "try the news on for size."
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2006 at 12:08am
Wonder what will be next? Could it be direct contact via newspaper, radio, service announcement ads. or perhaps an all out paper campaign? Oh == maybe even a direct phone call kind of like asking you to vote for so and so, but really we want you to " get prepared."
.......................................................................................
 
yes, isn't this on our forum somewhere... direct contact via newspaper, radio, service announcement ads, that have been prepared ahead for use?
 
Is it only psychologically correct to prepare the masses by saturating the media with the basic terms.   Like...help yourselves, the gov won't be able to be everywhere at once.  Is anyone listening? 
 
better print the flyers...
Back to Top
wilma View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member
Avatar

Joined: August 20 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wilma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2006 at 12:13am
[QUOTE=argyll]
 
Wonder what will be next? Could it be direct contact via newspaper, radio, service announcement ads. or perhaps an all out paper campaign? 


Hi Argyll, and everyone else...I just heard my first radio spot for preparing for Avian Flu last week.  It was given by Sacramento (California) officials.  It wasn't an alarming notice in words (the same old stuff we have know for a long time), but the fact that it was actually on the radio made me take notice.  If officials think it's close enough to send messages out, shouldn't the messages be a little more alarming?  I can't imagine anyone, other than those of us who are already taking this seriously, would think it necessary to take action based on that commercial.

Since this is my second post (first one just a minute ago to tell about myself), I thought I'd say that last October I called one of our Doctors in Infectious Disease (flu) research (I work at a University) and asked if WHO meant this strain (H5N1) when they came out and said it was imminent (which they shortly after retracted) and she said yes.  So I asked her "when" and she said if not this year (last year) then next year (which is now). 
KP
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2006 at 4:54am
I just read word that the leaflets will be ready soon for download. That will great as we can get them out now to the people. In my local town, there has been one article about bird flu in the last 6 months that references the government's web site. I know they have told us we will be on our own, but I often wonder how the average American -- who knows little or nothing about bird flu -- can be expected to prepare?
 
I am hoping they have left enough time to help educate and prepare people. The thought of Americans finding out last minute is so unfair.  These Americans pay taxes, work hard, feed their families, and pay their bills every month. I hope they are given the fair credit they deserve. They are the everyman that makes American that great nation it is today. So, let's roll and help paper ("prepare) America!
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2006 at 5:01am
Originally posted by argyll argyll wrote:

MedClinician,
 
I had an inkling you were getting an up front view of avian when you mentioned a while back about using different IP addresses. I had a very clear thought that you were on the front lines looking across and giving us a bird's eye view. I think that is why I asked where you were -- I was hoping you would return to give us a view of your journey. I am sorry for all the waves it may have caused, but you spoke to them with timeless wisdom.
 
Having said that, you have spoken a lot of truths that most can relate to. I do believe that many grasshoppers exist while ants tread quietly for the good of mankind. I thought that analogy you used a while back was pretty powerful. It has stuck with me ever since.
 
I hope my journey here at AFT will honor me by helping just one fellow American better prepare for what maybe be the challenge of a lifetime. If I have accomplished that, then my purpose here on this forum will have been served. My work continues -- in tandem -- with fellow members as we map out the future in understanding and responding to pandemic influenza. Thank you for pointing out the narrow road in what is certain to be a challenging journey. It is a road worth acknowledging and discussing beforehand. And, a road which will be the test of a lifetime. Argyll.
 
Thanks for your inspirational and educational posts. Regards, Argyll.
 
Thanks Argyll. I had a massive post about to go up and I thought it better to let those who pick up on certain things be the ones to know and perserve that data. No doubt there is a "a team" here. I have great respect for the group, their contributions, and the silence does not mean there is no information. It will emerge on the net which is uncorkable.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2006 at 5:03am
Originally posted by wilma wilma wrote:

[QUOTE=argyll]
 
Wonder what will be next? Could it be direct contact via newspaper, radio, service announcement ads. or perhaps an all out paper campaign? 


Hi Argyll, and everyone else...I just heard my first radio spot for preparing for Avian Flu last week.  It was given by Sacramento (California) officials.  It wasn't an alarming notice in words (the same old stuff we have know for a long time), but the fact that it was actually on the radio made me take notice.  If officials think it's close enough to send messages out, shouldn't the messages be a little more alarming?  I can't imagine anyone, other than those of us who are already taking this seriously, would think it necessary to take action based on that commercial.

Since this is my second post (first one just a minute ago to tell about myself), I thought I'd say that last October I called one of our Doctors in Infectious Disease (flu) research (I work at a University) and asked if WHO meant this strain (H5N1) when they came out and said it was imminent (which they shortly after retracted) and she said yes.  So I asked her "when" and she said if not this year (last year) then next year (which is now). 
 
Hi Wilma. Welcome to AFF and it is good to here information is getting out there to prepare and inform people.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2006 at 5:18am
Originally posted by mach mach wrote:

Standingfirm,
 
I whole heartedly agree with what you said in your last post to me. our actions must always stand for the truth and our actions always have meaning. yet we are human and it is impossible to have a perfect record in that regard. Even Christ lost his cool and yelled and threw things in the temple when he saw corruption.
 
 
This one has always stuck with me. This has been a good thread and I have learned a lot and gained a lot of insights. You know Plato was into "Dialogues" (I believe) and he thought we could learn a great deal, discover a great deal from such discussions. The book of Job, which is probably older than most other books in the Bible, is such a dialogue.
 
One mind alone is very limited. When we first all picked up rocks and clubs together and stared at the Saber tooth tiger, we went beyond just being a "pack" to a thinking social group who established government for the common defense of the governed. We gave up certain rights to do anything we wanted at any time, for combined power of the group and ability to deal with "the enemy" in whatever natural or unnatural form it became.
 
What I am saying is first, thanks once more for all who put thoughts, effort, and time into reading and posting here even though I have no authority here. You never know where the solution to even the most challenging problem may come from. It is independent of education, credentials, or rank. It is why Lincoln said in truth we are all "equal" - and we are and should be treated as such.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2006 at 5:30am
Hi Standingfirm et al,
 
Glad to hear from you. I am afraid my responses will be limited until I purchase a new mouse -- this one is dead. This is going to be an eventful week. Hope we can get this leaflet out in strongfold and post it to the world wide web for the everyone to download.
 
So happy to hear about the radio spots, and yes I think we will be hearing them more. Someone mentioned that that are not " sounding the alarm" yet, but it is a start in the right directioin. we are working our way up to to trying on the right size warning for America.
 
Now is the time to share any pertinent information. All of our inklings adds up to a lot. Regards, Argyll.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2006 at 5:57am

Mach,
We cannot stand for the ultimate truth in our own ability. This stand, this stand of our lives, must rely on the strength that is given from above. I am not speaking rhetorically. There is a strength that is poured out on believers that is supernatural and it allows them to stand with strength through the most horrendous circumstances. Sometimes I get angry at our overused and seemingly trite catch phrases of born again Christianity but sometimes there is no other way to describe the type of relationship that is available to us humans with the Creator of the universe. The only way to that personal relationship is through being born again in Spirit. This relationship gives you the strength and understanding to stand against overwhelming odds, the spiritual “eyes” to see things that are not always seen to some and the words to say when words fail you. There really is a narrow way to this relationship.

We were allies with the Afghanis when they were fighting the Russians. Part of the reason that they had respect for us was that we believed in the one true God. They hated the Godless Russians. Now take the case of the kidnappers. In the lives of these men who perpetrated this action, our Western witness was one of weakness. We do not believe enough to stand for our religion. They will die for theirs but we will not die for ours. The view now is that we are weak in our beliefs. That was the message and it is now being played out throughout the Muslim world. When you stand for what you believe you cast doubt in the others minds. That doubt is gone and this action has emboldened the enemy. Even if you caused just these kidnappers to doubt the validity of what they believe you have cauterized one avenue of further attack. Now this will be seen as a way to further the Islamic Fascist agenda and this action will be revisited another time and in another place. 

Taking a stand for what you believe has to be through actions and not words alone. They hear we are Christian nations in the west. This is the mindset that we are up against, “well, these Christian beliefs must be pretty weak if they are not willing to die for them like we are”. Not just this group of terrorists was watching, again, this will be played out ad nauseum.

 We cannot lose sight of the fact that there are two men here who lived through this torture. They lived to fight another day and I hope that if they get another chance to stand for their beliefs, which we do not know of at this point, that they find the relationship that they need to be able to stand. So let’s not be too hard on these men. I wonder how many others will not be able to stand with strength from above when their time comes. It may not come in the same manner, but we all have our moments to stand for what we believe. It may be a neighborhood bully, a terrorist, a forum board, or a family, but we all have our moments to stand. We must remember though that with children sometimes you only get one chance to make a mark. One action gone wrong takes many, many more actions to overcome and words alone will never do it, so too with those of other cultures and beliefs.

Mach, it isn’t scripture that gives you the strength, nor your preacher or sitting in a pew every day. When the chips are down and you are relying on the Holy Spirit, the Word comes to you but it is the supernatural strength from God that emboldens you. Your preacher may be far, far away and you may not have a Bible available.

If we all stood up to our undeniable beliefs the enemy would know that they cannot fight us in this area, we would win the battle and the evil one would not dominate in this area. It is never better to accept defeat when fighting a spiritual battle and this present war is spiritual as well as physical.

Christ cleansed the temple (actually the court of the gentiles) to demonstrate the failure of the old sacrificial system, as it was, and that a new way was opening to the gentile believers. The court of the gentiles, being cleansed, was now available and clean, not to overtake Judaism but to complete it. There is a fulfillment, a completeness. So too, we gentile believers must cleanse our temple of the Holy Spirit through cleansing ourselves of our everyday sin so we may obtain the fulfillment offered to us. The only way to cleanse our temple is through repentance of our own personal sin, and asking that Jesus take our sin on His cross, because that is the action that saved us. This is why he cleansed the temple-to show us the way.


Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2006 at 5:59am
Hi Argyll, if you get a microsoft wireless optical mouse don't update the drivers or it will tell you to put in fresh batteries every five minutes.


Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2006 at 6:26am
Standingfirm, I love writing that handle it is pretty powerful. Thanks for the information on the mouse. I am going logo at the moment, no mouse control whatsoever! Just heard from Albert that we are working on posting the dowload (seven steps) to the front page of the web site. That is going to be great! I am trying to send it off to Oprah, but I have to retrieve my passcode, as I cannot remember what it is! Hope things in Swampscott are going well. Argyll.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2006 at 6:33am
Re: Swampscott, I wouldn't know. Unfortunately I haven't been back since I graduated. I love the area but I have no ties to it any longer, college and marriage took me away. We moved 5 times when I was a kid. Wesport CT was also home for awhile. Loved that place too. Yardley PA and Frederick MD were also where I lived. 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2006 at 7:17am

Med and Standingfirm,

 

I have enjoyed this conversation. Thank you for your thoughts and wisdom. 

 

Standingfirm,

 

I think we agree to disagree on a very major point. I don't think a willingness to die needlessly (my opinion) in this world is a strength. I think that is a weakness and an unwillingness to fight against injustice. The injustice of being murdered. A capitulation to evil. a willingness to let evil conquer.

 

Judas gave up Christ for greed and caused him harm. Judas lost favor with Christ.  Peter denied Christ with words out of fear, did not cause him harm and still became a Saint and the Rock of the Church. If denying Christ in words and not spirit in order to protect his life was good enough for Peter, then it would be good enough  for me so my life could continue in order for me to accomplish the responsibilities that I have in my life.(ie. taking care of my children’s well being). I think it comes down to what is in your heart. Judas gave in to greed. Peter gave into fear. I just see no reason to be better than Peter at the cost of my family and my children. In my heart, they are more important than the lie of meaningless words that are not from my heart in a drastic situation. Maybe I am being more practical than spiritual in this regard, but then I look to Saint Peter and how he denied Christ out of fear, which would be even more selfish than doing it out of love and responsibility to your loved ones.

 

Medclinician is right, discussion is important, it is one of the things that makes us human and a tool to help discover the truth.

 

Maybe my military background is coming out here, but I am all in favor of Jihadists willing to die for their cause. It makes our job of having to kill them easier. The way you win a war is by letting the enemy die for his country or in these case beliefs.

 
I would love to keep discussing, but I have so many other things i need to do. Thanks for the conversation.
 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down