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Now tracking the new emerging South Africa Omicron Variant

Unvaccinated 33 times more likely to need ICU

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EdwinSm, View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EdwinSm, Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Unvaccinated 33 times more likely to need ICU
    Posted: November 18 2021 at 10:18pm

These statistics are based on data from Finland [Note 'THL' is our CDC]

Originally posted by "YLE" "YLE" wrote:

Unvaccinated individuals are 33 times more likely to require intensive care unit (ICU) treatment than double-jabbed people, and 19 times more likely to need hospital care, according to figures released on Thursday by public health authority THL.

<.....>

Some 14 percent of the population of the country are currently unvaccinated, yet they account for about 70 percent of patients being treated in hospitals for the virus.

Double-jabbed people also require hospital care, at least to some extent, THL added. However, most of these patients have an underlying condition that affects their health.

https://yle.fi/news/3-12193401

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2021 at 2:04am

Not at all feeling any sympathy for those who choose not to  get vaccinated,

I do feel sorry for the medical care staff ,who have to work their butts off for those selfish people.......

Mind seems loads of medical staff leaving , because of the stress Covid is causing......

Can't say  I blame them......

My heart goes out to all the staff at hospital's,from the cleaner to the surgeon, fantastic people,I don't think I could do it.....

Take care all 😷😉💉


Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.🖖

Marcus Aurelius
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cn65 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2021 at 4:46am

I've already had the virus

Like a mild winter's cold with very strange symptoms - basically to me it was an "inconvenience" and nothing more than that.

I'll not be having the vax under any circumstances whatsoever - EVER. I'm interested in MY health and not anyone elses (all my relatives are all already dead).  MY health mean not injecting substances into me to "protect" against a disease that I've already had and has no effect on me.   All those wanting me to get vax'd do not give a monkey's about my health - they just want me to get vax'd to apparently protect them though they never seem to have any answer to "you are vaxed if you a terrified of it why are you bothered by my vax status - unless of course you do not believe the vax works".  If I should get a bad reaction to the vax then I can rest assured that all of them will be walking in the opposite direction as fast as they can and denying all blame - so in short they too are only interested in THEIR health and do not give a toss about others....just like me in fact, which is why I'm going nowhere near this vax.

So I very much doubt therefore that I'll be clogging up any ICU - but I fully expect everyone will like me to continue to pay for all of this via my taxes.


Now if instead the boffins might actually produce a vax against a standard normal winter's cold that lays me out in bed for 3 days with a block up nose/sinus etc and ends up with a wretched cough/sore throat that lingers for a week or more now you are talking and yup I'd be interested: fat chance of that though!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2021 at 1:14pm

I think you will have to have the vaccine wether you like it or not ,take a look at Austria ,you will not be able to get any medical insurance ,flight on a plane ,go into a shop ,bar ....etc.....

..hope the next variant treats you so kindly.....

Take care all 😷😉💉

Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.🖖

Marcus Aurelius
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2021 at 4:00am

Cn65;  My husband has a "friend" who is on his third, deeply accrimonius divorce.  His most recent wife has confessed to being a closet lesbian; she married him for money.  This has deepened his misogeny.  "How sad." said Hubby: "That he should have such continuing bad luck with women."

Many times I have met this man.  He has ignored me on all of them.  He obviously dismisses me as: "Just a stupid woman." although I can see what he can not.  The reason he has never found love is that he does not see, or treat, women as people.  Consequently, no women who are honestly looking for a relationship go within "touch with a bargepole" distance of him; they see what I see - selfishness, misogeny and inequety.  The only thing he has to offer is his money.  So the only "women" he can get are golddiggers.  Yet love, as Hubby and I happily agree, is a two way street.


I feared the virus, I still do.  But I am triple vaccinated.  I also suspect I had the virus at the start of 2020 with mild symptoms; not all fears are for myself.

I have a good friend who is a transplantee and another who is being treated for leukemia.  Another person of whom I am fond is a second transplantee.  I got vaccinated to help limit the spread of the virus.  I don't want the deaths of people like these on my hands.  

Hubby beat stage 4 cancer and got the "all clear" at the start of this year.  The doctors who saved his life are currently horiffically overworked.  I got vaccinated to help limit the spread of the virus.  I don't want to be responsible for making their difficult lives even harder.

The utterly wonderful lady who first introduced my husband and I to each other died last year, not from covid, but because the covid-induced pressure on the health system meant she had insufficient care when she most needed it.  Hubby and I both love her son too and it hurt to see him so grief stricken. Our ambulance queues are now even longer than they were back then.  I got vaccinated to help limit the spread of the virus.  I don't want the deaths of people like these on my hands.  I don't want any deaths on my hands.  Most people are loved by someone.  I don't want to cause them more pain.   I would not even shoot a wild goose, as those dumb critters mate for life.


I understand that all this offers you no incentive to get vaccinated.  I am so very sorry.  That is truly sad.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2021 at 4:06am

Ps.  I have now had both Pfizer-Biontech and Astra-Zeneca's vaccines.  They were without symptoms; just a tiny prick.


I say:  "Get one or be one."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2021 at 3:26pm

I always go by the message.....

"Do unto others ,as you would have done to yourself"........

Good advice,

pity some have lost the meaning......

Take care all 😷😉💉

Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.🖖

Marcus Aurelius
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nzdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2021 at 12:46am

The statistics and practical medical subsets regarding this current situation are fluid, and the best practice is changing on a daily basis, as the pandemic grinds on.

I have been watching this evolve as we all have been.

Im disturbed by the comments of some here who want to argue with others who , because of their own experiences and world view, disagree with other posters.

sensible discourse is a pillar of science and medicine.

Those who have had their RNA altered and modified are entitled to their opinons of course, and those who wish to take a more cautioned approach are entitled to feel this way also.

There simply hasnt been enough time to collect any meaningful data on the short,medium or long term effects of this drug. Period. Medicine and science data cannot be short tracked, nor should it be. Thats not how science and or medicines work. Period.

The drugs being administered with absolute haste may be the best thing ever , or they may be the worst. Time will tell. But that time frame has yet to run its course.

If you have taken these drugs i congratulate you on being part of the largest drug field test in history. Good for you.

If new data reveals that the vaxxed are doing better than the unvaxxed, then youll feel much better im certain. Good for you.

If new data suggests that modifying the human genome has been a mistake, then i guess youll lose that smugness being displayed currently.

People who have shown medical prudence, and waited for further data dont have to be worried about adverse effects currently.

Thank you.


prepare for the worst,hope for the best.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2021 at 1:17am

nzdad...You have a right to think that way...but maybe a point-proberbly worldwide most vaccines are NOT mRNA...(Chinese, Russian, AstraZeneca-Adeno-virus)...

Here in NL some experts try to move the discussion on some people may be willing to accept non-mRNA vaccines...still doing often better then flu-vaccines...

dr.John Campbell in his video's made a point on aspirating-so you do not inject/damage a bloodvessel during vaccination. I think-as a non-expert-a good point...

Some studies may indicate mRNA vaccines could cause some increase of hearthproblems (but the study-if I am correct-was done in patients that allready had hearthproblems). Vaccines are NOT without risks ! 

I take Geert van den Bossche very serious-vaccine selective evolution of the virus may allready have become a very major problem...

In my opinion the main reason for pushing (only) vaccines is "saving the economy" avoiding lockdowns...short term thinking...

In my opinion vaccines did by time-not much more...it provided some room at hospitals for the duration...but as a strategy it failed...

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nzdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2021 at 1:33am

Thankyou dutchjosh. Good health to you !

The current vaccines are designed from data taken from the wuhan strain of the virus to be sure. The current push is sure to ensure that the virus evolves beyond the usual evolutionary boundarys, which is concerning to say the least.

Yes, i watch dr. John campbell virtually everytime he puts up a new video. I respect and admire him immensley.

There hasnt been enough time passed yet, to make proper judgement with regards this drug, and as i mentioned in my previous post, prudence requires time and evidence one way or the other.

If i am wrong, have been misinformed or otherwise, i will amend the situation of course.proper science and medical protocols demand changes in practice when new evidence becomes available.

But the current push makes no sense with regards the up till recently change in accepted scientific methodology.


Thank you.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2021 at 2:41am
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.🖖

Marcus Aurelius
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2021 at 2:42am
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.🖖

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2021 at 2:43am
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.🖖

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nzdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2021 at 2:55am

Thank you carbon, i will read these links.

Edit. I have read all three of these articles now, thank you.

All three state conclusive evidence that MRNA drugs do not enter cell nucleas or other areas that affect DNA, or RNA.

However, according to my understanding, the studies are of course, ongoing.

Ongoing being my point.

The science has not been settled. Not at all, at this early stage. I worry about the politics behind so called settled science. Studies currently underway in sweden and the netherlands have published data that shows MRNA spike protiens entering cell nuclea.

Edit once more. Not only gaining entry, but also disrupting DNA repair.


Heres is my point though, as someone who has waited, im not concerned if the data is accurate or not. I dont have that worry right at this point in time.

If  time tested data proves me wrong, i will gladly roll up my sleeve.

Until then, i have the luxury of time, and carefully considered risk versus benefits data.

Thank you for your concern carbon.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2021 at 7:42am

I take issue with a lot of that.


1. The right to life supercedes the right to freedom, otherwise it would be legal to shoot anyone, drive a car into crowds (Don't tell me that is ever acceptable, just look at yesterday's awful tragedy.) and throw people off of tall buildings.  We all know that is wrong, but there seems to be a blindness where vaccines are concerned.  This could be because we do not necessarily know the victims personally, or simply that we do not value the old and the sick.  That is my opinion.

2. The vaccines - all of them - are demed fully safe.  There are risks involved, but they are negligible - crossing the road is riskier.  That is scientific fact.  If you have heard otherwise, you are reading unscientific quasi-facts, either written by those with vested interests, or by the unscientifically trained who mis-interpret the science.  Eating a hotdog does you more damage.  That is NOT my opinion, but science's.

3.  Not having an mRNA vaccine as an excuse for not having a vaccine is dissembling.  Sinopharm, Sinovac, Astra-Zeneca, Sputnic V, Novavax and Janssen  all use other older methods of stimulating the immune system.  Only Pfizer-Biontech and Moderna vaccines use mRNA.  What is your excuse for avoiding all the rest?  It is an excuse; that is my opinion.


Vaccine types List

Janssen Vaccine Details

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2021 at 1:17pm

The mRNA vaccines will become the norm in vaccine production,

They would be the 1st line of defence if ever H5N1 ever became H2H, 

Why? you may ask.....

Find out and come back to me with your answer,

Treat it as homework....

I'll give you a clue.....

Chicken eggs.......

Take care all 😷😉💉

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2021 at 1:57pm

DW (English): COVID: Health minister tells Germans not to be picky over vaccines.

https://dw.com/p/43Kpr?maca=en-gk-volltext-newsstand-topstories-en-10709-xml-googlenews

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nzdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2021 at 2:04pm

Thank you technophobe and carbon.

Ill look at your homework assignment carbon, and see what the data states, thank you.

Im glad for your comments technophobe. Im glad you take issue with my comments. Robust debate and a willingness to question the accepted narrative of the day is why we in the west have the best scientific and medical institutions globally. I applaud your concerns.

I will continue my studies on these matters, and make an informed decision once the required data becomes available.

Please read my previous posts regarding my intended response if data suggests these drugs are proven either neccessary or effective.

Thank you both for fuelling my desire for more robust factual peer reviewed data before i accept these trial drugs.

I am certain my future health will thank me for going the extra mile, and conducting the required due dilligence.


Thank you.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2021 at 3:17pm

Originally posted by nzdad nzdad wrote:

Thank you technophobe and carbon.

Ill look at your homework assignment carbon, and see what the data states, thank you.

Im glad for your comments technophobe. Im glad you take issue with my comments. Robust debate and a willingness to question the accepted narrative of the day is why we in the west have the best scientific and medical institutions globally. I applaud your concerns.

I will continue my studies on these matters, and make an informed decision once the required data becomes available.

Please read my previous posts regarding my intended response if data suggests these drugs are proven either neccessary or effective.

Thank you both for fuelling my desire for more robust factual peer reviewed data before i accept these trial drugs.

I am certain my future health will thank me for going the extra mile, and conducting the required due dilligence.


Thank you.

NZDAD, I couldn't agree with you more. I've really stopped regularly checking up on this site because all I hear is fear in the form of all out agressive attack. Unless you are saying "the vaccines are great" no one will tolerate anything. No matter what I say or how I say it, certain people on here can't bring themselves to be civil or even to contemplate that the narrative they were sold was anything other than 100% correct. 

No matter what anyone else says, there is no long term safety data on these jabs. None. It doesn't exist because only a year has passed since they were invented and 5-7 years is needed. Up until long term safety data is available, they remain experimental medical treatments and the fact that millions of them have been given out does not alter this fact. There are many scientists and medical experts who opine that they will be safe, that the chances are they are fine for everyone to take, but they do not have the data to back that up. 

I'm with you on waiting. There is no morality to taking a vaccine. They protect no one but the recipient - and even that is up for debate. 

So you might as well be talking to brick a wall for all the good it's doing anyone. I came on here today looking for a specific piece of information but it's not here because all that seems to be posted recently is pro vaccine nonsense. There is no reasonable debate anymore on here. Instead there is mud slinging, name calling and bullying. I've been publically attacked on here and then have received private messages from the people involved saying "sorry it's nothing personal" etc etc and giving me an excuse for their bad behaviour and rudeness but then they are not man enough to go back to their unpleasant posts about me and quote them and apologise publically. It's cowardice. 

You are a reasonable man and always polite, as indeed I hope I am, but it cuts no ice with brain washed, frightened people. 

And fyi, one of my children is a lifeguard and last Saturday a high level 18 year old competitive swimmer had to be pulled from the pool because of extreme heart palpitations. Vaccinated, super fit and suddenly having heart problems. A coincidence????? I don't think so. 

As far as accusations of conspiracy theories go, personally i've limited myself to only reading articles and opinions of qualified doctors and scientific reports.

Anyway, if you want a reasonable discussion on the jabs, i'm up for it. And I also watch Dr John Campbell daily and isn't it interesting how his very pro vaccine stance has softened over the last few months? He's now warning of vaccine adverse effects especially in young people. The worm is turning.

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2021 at 3:40pm

I'll just say one more thing on this, which I'm hopeful Carbon, Technophobe and a few others will read before they knee jerk back with a response. 

And that is, all I'm saying is that I don't think the vaccines are for everyone, but maybe they are the right choice for some. I'm not saying it's an all or nothing approach. If you take one and it makes you feel secure and safe and you honestly believe it'll keep you well, then great. Good for you! But if you are confident they work, then why would it bother you if your neighbour has decided not to have one? 

All this nonsense about an individuals right to choice being less than your moral obligation to protect the vulnerable is literally rubbish. Even the entrenched British government now admits that the vaccines don't stop you getting or transmitting Covid, so having a vaccine does not protect the vulnerable. 

What I am saying is that I have a right to choose to become part of a large medical experiment or not, as is my whim. And so do you. 

And fyi, my friends father died of Covid in a hospital in the UK in Sept despite being doubly vaccinated, fit, slim and aged 70. A cousin of mine recently was admitted to hospital with Covid aged 56, doubly vaccinated, despite his wife and children, who are unvaccinated, also having Covid and getting over it just fine. He spent 10 days on the Covid ward with 5 other men, only one of whom was unvaccinated. 

I have elderly relatives who have had the vaccines and are delighted about it and that's great. If you want it then have it. If you don't, that's fine too. Live and let live. 

Why don't we try to move past this and on to more important things like what to do if you do get Covid, info on the new variants, prepping suggestions, updates on the scientific evidence about Covid that is coming to light daily. Surely we've never lived in more exciting times than these?

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nzdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2021 at 3:48pm

Thank you kiwimum.

I took leave from this forum last year, and i did read some of the troubling attacks to and fro.

Im wary of forums such as this one. Im sorry to read of the troubles caused.

I have a thick skin. I am the leader of my family, i am unshaken.

I will not be moved.


I am currently consulting with a close personal friend who is a registered mortitian and embalmer.

His wife is a frontline registered nurse. I hope to follow up my findings once i have time to review his comments.

Regardless of threats and schoolyard antics, i will stand my ground. Science, fact and basic human liberty must be preserved at all cost. 

Hold your ground friend, we will prevail. Take heart.

When forum nastiness becomes an issue, i go on forum holiday. I have a large orchard and vegetable garden to tend to. Time in the garden is healing i find.


Take care and stand firm. You are not alone.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2021 at 9:01pm

I agree it's time to move on from this ,

With millions of doses of vaccine given out ,

Governments mandating lockdowns for the unvaccinated ,

I somehow think the anti covid vaxers are on a hiding to nowhere.......

We all know where we stand on this ,I have always said I don't believe in mandates,I do think if you so sure that covid is not that bad ,then sign a waiver , stating to you not eligible for free healthcare if you are infected with Covid or any other variant,put your health in   your own hands.......easy as  that......

I did threaten to delete anti Vax posts ,I don't want to be the thought police......so I won't do that but maybe we should have a vote on it,

Or maybe just keep those thoughts to yourselves,

And let's get on to the real job looking for the next pandemic mind this one has a long way to go.....

Take care all 😷😉💉


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nzdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2021 at 9:28pm

Thank you carbon.

Feel free to delete my posts. I have approached albert already asking if he could please cancel my membership and access to this forum. This request to albert was made two years ago.

If both of these requests are able to be completed, i will be extremely grateful.

Thank you in advance.

I would prefer to return my focus to prepping, my family and my garden.

Good luck to us all, and thank you friends.

Nzdad over and out.

prepare for the worst,hope for the best.
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Dutch Josh View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2021 at 9:44pm

Vaccination-strategy has been a disaster !!!! 

Opening up societies because 70% of 18 y/o+ did create this worst wave in the pandemic so far....According to the WHO present vaccines would offer 60% protection against severe disease from pre-Delta variants...dropping to 40% protection against severe disease from Delta (DJ and the perspectives are getting worse !!!)....

[url]https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-03495-2[/url] or https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-03495-2 Vaccinated still catching the virus have the same chance as unvaccinated for long CoViD....

Kiwimum, nzdad have a very good point in risks of vaccination !!! I was trying to find the link at flutrackers...discussing the vaccination risks downplayed by the media...

In New Zealand they managed to keep the virus out for a long time...Islands may be in a better position for viral control often. Looking at the history of this pandemic-stopping the pandemic was most succesfull via Non Pharma Interventions...

STOP THE SPREAD !!! So travel restrictions do much better then "herd immunity via vaccines against a fast mutating virus"....

Vaccinated people-for now-are less likely to end up at ICU...but vaccines made this pandemic much worse via vaccine-selective mutations...

Saving the economy may kill us all...

I am "old" for me taking a vaccine is a different story then for someone who is 35...or 15...Looking from Europe...maybe it is still to early...but maybe (as a non-expert) vaccines made this pandemic worse....

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein
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carbon20 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2021 at 2:18am

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/24/who-tells-fully-vaccinated-to-wear-masks-physically-distance-as-infections-surge.html


Governments have put to much faith in vaccines alone, especially at only 70,% vaccinated,we are aiming for 90% ........our Premier reigns supreme...

Keeping us informed and safe.......

take care all 😷😉💉

Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.🖖

Marcus Aurelius
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