WHO: Are we their, &quot; SLOW CODE &quot;

Thanks(0)

Quote

Topic: WHO: Are we their, " SLOW CODE "
Posted: February 18 2006 at 9:21am

Guests

Guest Group

Post Options

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: February 18 2006 at 11:43am

Damn, pretty soon there will be no medical secrets!

There are many good reasons, all psychological, to run a `slow' or `show' code. I've run them myself, and while the ressusscitation efforts were real, they were without undo heroics or expectations of success.

Many a times, doctors or medics are confronted with an obviously hopeless case, but they `work them for the family' , anyway. People often don't understand that after a very few minutes of cardiac arrest, you just aren't going to get the desired result.

To simply walk up to a patient, in front of their family, and say "Yep, he's dead." and walk away, well, that isn't the kindest thing in the world to do to family members who are already in shock. So, you work them. Maybe a miracle happens, but usually all you do is work up a sweat and call the code after 20 minutes.

As to whether WHO is working a slow code? Could be.

They may already have determined that there isn't a damn thing they can do if a pandemic occurs, but don't want to admit it publicly. Gotta give the family `faith' that everything that could be done, is being done. Beats admitting up front, that we're totally screwed.

Do I believe it? No . . . not yet, anyway. I think that there are logistics and barriers (political/economic/cultural) that greatly affect what WHO can do right now. I believe there are good people working there, but many are hamstrung by the politics at high levels. I don't think they've given up, and are simply going thru the motions.

But I do believe that there are real limits to what can be done. That no matter how hard they work at it, failure is likely. I don't think any of us consider the idea that they will `contain' an outbreak, realistic. Nor do many of us hold out hope for a vaccine.

If a pandemic comes, it will have to run it's course. We may mitigate it's effects, save some lives, and hopefully keep the infrastructure from totally crashing, but we won't stop it.

There are forces of nature over which we simply have no control. Earthquakes, Tsunami's, Tornado's, and yes, pandemics. We can't stop them, all we can do is try to work around them.

It's a sobering, but valuable realization. Man, for all our advances, still cannot control nature. Only a fool would believe we ever will.

Guests

Guest Group

Post Options

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: February 18 2006 at 12:38pm

Thanks for your thoughtful response to a very
difficult issue. I agree totally with everything
you�ve remarked on.

The truth is a double-edged sword, it can protect as
well as inflict pain. Those that wheeled it, know all too well.

Sometimes I feel like a character in a movie. I remind myself
that if this does come to pass, unlike the movie ending, I can rewrite
the ending of my own script and so can the rest of you. Cost of looking
foolish, your pride, value of protecting those you love, priceless.

Tell a man that there are 400 billion stars and he'll believe you. Tell him a
bench has wet paint and he has to touch it. Stephen Wright.

----------

"The people of the country ought to rest assured that
we're doing everything we can. We're watching it.
We're careful. We're in communications with the world.

I'm not predicting an outbreak. I'm just suggesting to you that we better
be thinking about it. And we are. And we're more than thinking about it,
we're trying to put plans in place." George W. Bush

http://www.globalresearch.ca/PrintArticle.php?articleId=1041

Edited by Rick

zumble

V.I.P. Member

Joined: January 16 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 24

Post Options

Quote zumble

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: February 18 2006 at 5:31pm

Fla medic:

Excellent answer. I have also participated in my share of slow codes, and as you say, it is for the family's sake. they need to feel that they've done all that they could.

Guests

Guest Group

Post Options

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: February 18 2006 at 6:21pm

I too have been on slow codes and always thought it was a dis-service to patient and family. If it is an on-the-scene trauma that's one thing and the patient should be a scoop-and-scoot anyway. In the hospital, the MD and staff should have discussed and made it clear to the patient and family if there should be a code or not. Slow codes have mal-practice written all over them. Codes should be 'all or none' and the hospital/nursing home would be wise and responsible to have each patient labled as such.

As far as H5 pandemic. An informed patient makes the best decisions. Therefore, I would recommend thorough research on how an individual and family will respond to this possible 'code'.

Guests

Guest Group

Post Options

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: February 18 2006 at 6:35pm

I agree Doug, and my family and I have discussed this so there will be no gut-wrenching decision making. I don't want monitors and tubes protruding from my body just to be kept from death for a few days or years. It's a discussion and decision everybody should make while they are alert and alive.

fritz

Adviser Group

Joined: February 04 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 332

Post Options

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: February 18 2006 at 6:43pm

I have experienced this first hand unfortunately. I had a son (my 2nd) who was born ill and pasted away unexpectedly at 8 mo. old in his crib during the night. I was still in shock of course when the paramedics came the next morning and they immediately set to work trying to resessatate him. They worked on him for a very long time and I was so shocked because it was so clear that he had been gone for hours (no need to explain more plainly than that to you two) anyway, I would've preferred that they just took one look at him and said they were very sorry instead of going through all that charade because I had felt guilty initially, like I should've been doing something before they got there when even in my state of mind they seemed to be acting crazy. It was a horrific loss for my husband and myself but it confirmed for me that I always respect honesty even if it's difficult for the professionals to provide. It's difficult for help-providers to admit helplessness but sometimes offers the recipient more respect.

"I am only one; but still I am one, I cannot do everything, but still I can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do." -- Hellen Keller

Guests

Guest Group

Post Options

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: February 18 2006 at 6:53pm

I'm sorry for your lost. I was staying an afternoon for a dear friend, who passed away suddenly, while her family was at the Dr's for pain meds and a DNR.

I had to call the Dr's office and was told to call 911. which I did and they had to do all the bells and whistles as well.

She had cancer but died of a anerysum (sp?) so she was going to die either way. But it was very distrubing for me and for the family, as they came home in the middle of it. I can not imagine how you must have felt.

Guests

Guest Group

Post Options

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: February 18 2006 at 6:57pm

fritz, first my condolences. Losing a child is every parents nightmare.

I don't know what those guys were thinking. Honestly, a `show' code is appropriate if the time `down' is unknown, and the victims condition is such that it appears less than 20 minutes (excluding hypothermia, which extends the window). To work any patient, who has been down for hours, simply doesn't make sense.

But I've seen it happen.

I don't know what was going thru those medic's heads, why they chose to work an unviable code. Maybe they were new, or had little field experience. Maybe they just made a bad call. I'm sorry for the angst they put you thru.

Guests

Guest Group

Post Options

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: February 18 2006 at 7:10pm

fritz, I too offer my condolences. I can't even begin to imagine the pain and anguish.

But I'm sure the paramedics were performing their jobs as best they knew how and a "show" code played no part. Please know that they have feelings and emotions as well and the trauma of riding a call on a child is something that you are never well prepared for. Training and logic probably played very little into what they did, but a heart shocked by tragedy.

While I know this doesn't lessen your pain one iota, I would hope that you do not hold anger for the crew that were only following their heart.

Debi

Guests

Guest Group

Post Options

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: February 18 2006 at 7:12pm

Fritz, I'm very sorry about your loss too, this is the one thing parents I've heard parents say they could make it through.... I've read children dying is very hard for the professionals who come to help too - maybe in their state of mind (seeing a dead infant) they wanted to try, or didn't think about NOT trying??? This will most likely remain one of those unanswered 'why's.

I know a police officer who had to go to counseling and eventually quit his job due to emotional breakdown because of some of the incidents he witnessed with children. It is always harder when it comes to innocent kids.

Guests

Guest Group

Post Options

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: February 18 2006 at 7:33pm

Dealing with kids, injured, sick, or dying is always difficult. You never get `hardened' to it. If you do, you need to get out of the profession.

SIDS, and here in florida, swimming pool drownings, take a lot of children. We probably tend to try harder when it's a kid, than when it's some 80 year old man. Human nature.

Sometimes miracles happen. Kids that shouldn't have made it, do. I've had it happen. Even once got chewed out by an ER doctor for reviving a downing victim, 16 years old, because he would be permanently brain damaged. I was devastated, of course.

A couple of hours later, I get the call from ICU. The kid's awake, talking, no signs of impairment. Kid's only complaint were sore ribs, and being hungry. I asked the nurse what the kid would like, she checked, and he said a BIG MAC.

We delivered.

Point is, sometimes going the extra mile works. Not often. The odds of any code being successful starts at less than 50/50. The longer the patient has been down, the lower the odds go. But it does happen.

When a medic comes across someone in cardiac arrest, going in, the odds are against a good outcome. When the signs are obvious that the patient has been down too long, the appropriate thing is to call it. Sometimes it isn't easy to tell how long a patient has been in cardiac arrest. Sometimes, you err on the side of caution, and do whatever you can, regardless of the long odds.

It's complicated, and every situation is different.

Had I followed standard protocol, that 16 year old wouldn't be in his 40's today. I'd have taken the word of bystanders that he'd been under too long. But in that case, I went with a gut instinct.

Sometimes you get lucky.

Edited by Fla_Medic

Gwyphn

Valued Member

Joined: February 10 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 92

Post Options

Quote Gwyphn

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: February 18 2006 at 7:34pm

How many children will die of bird? How terrible to loose even one.

What you have lived through is dreadful but you may have been given a gift of understanding for those who will follow.

For generations we have lived not wisely but too well. Now we must pay.

fritz

Adviser Group

Joined: February 04 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 332

Post Options

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: February 18 2006 at 8:22pm

Thanks everybody, I truly do appreciate all the support. This was several years ago and we are all doing ok. My first born will be 21 in May and is doing great. He was 8 when he lost his brother. I probably shouldn't be telling you this but I do know how deeply those who responded to the call were affected. Most of the paramedics were fairly young from what I remember. The officer who was first on the scene, our town's D.A.R.E. officer, had stayed with me until my husband made it home. He shot himself in the head 3 days later. I still to this day don't know what was going on in his life at the time that this happened but I think of him often and how wonderful he was to stay with me and how I never got the chance to thank him. This entire experience changed me on a molecular level. I do a good job of fooling some but I am not the same carefree and upbeat person I was before. This is why my husband and son let me prep with limited teasing and complaining but they never have taken my concerns (since 911) seriously. They just think I'm wound too tight in general and that I will find a way to focus on gloom and doom even if there is none. This worst case senario that seems to be unfolding before my eyes is such a nightmare that at times it literally makes me sick to my stomache. I think prepping for me is a form of nurturing myself and those I love because nurturing is what has always given me joy. In general, I think we ( Americans) have had it too easy for quite a while and most find it too much of an inconvenience to even think about changing their lifestyles to prep for a what if. It is too hard for me to think about loosing all my friends and family so I have started to make calls and tell them to humor me and to start to prep. I tell them to pay attention to what little snipits they hear on the news re BF. I have bought masks for one of my friends who truly cant afford to buy more than one box for her family. I think it is the responsibility of those who have the courage and the character to look this monster square in the eye to gently get through to those they love who will not or maybe even can not see it coming. Life is truly only worth living if you can live it surrounded by those you love. I know I don't want to be a lone survivor hiding in my basement. I believe most of those who are here on this forum have been given the gift of wisdom and vision. To whom much is given, much is required.

"I am only one; but still I am one, I cannot do everything, but still I can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do." -- Hellen Keller

Guests

Guest Group

Post Options

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: February 18 2006 at 8:43pm

[QUOTE=fritz] I have bought masks for one of my friends who truly cant afford to buy more than one box for her family.

I've been doing the buying for pretty much my entire family; I've been blessed with the resources. It is what we should do....I'm sure your friend is very lucky to have you.

CupcakeMom View Drop Down

Adviser Group

Joined: January 20 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 140

Post Options

Quote CupcakeMom

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: February 18 2006 at 10:14pm

Just wanted to say these posts show much compassion, and I feel it helping me out, too, even though they are not directed at me specifically, you know? Like others here, I've had cancer and been very ill; and I'm a parent also and cannot even conceive of how it would feel to lose my child. And I have people I love who don't have the interest or funds to prepare for a pandemic; and my job involves working with people in a great deal of anguish.

But "a burden shared is a burden lighter."

We all share this pandemic risk together, and we're stronger because of it. Thank you

fritz

Adviser Group

Joined: February 04 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 332

Post Options

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: February 19 2006 at 9:55am

Well said CCM,

I just wanted to thank you all again for the support but I am very serious about BF prep and I very much want to say that I wouldn't want my story to be a distraction or a deterant from anybody discussing any topic. I thought Rick & Fla-medic's posts were informative and had alot of merit and I wouldn't want the intent of thier posts and this topic of discussion to be derailed by my personal history. Maybe I shouldn't have shared my story but it's too late now and since this is my first time participating in an online forum and I kinda jumped into the deep end of the pool, I may not have the wisdom or experience nec. to participate as well as I would like. Hopefully I'm learning. I have been comforted equally as much as disturbed by posts I have read in this forum but I do respect honesty and wouldn't want anyone to feel the need to censor themselves.

Just had to get that off my chest.

Also, sorry if I got too preachy in my previous post. I think I'm going to turn off the computer earlier in the evenings from now on before I feel another Jerry McGuire moment coming on. I've been up till 3am every night this week!

"I am only one; but still I am one, I cannot do everything, but still I can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do." -- Hellen Keller

Guests

Guest Group

Post Options

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: February 19 2006 at 10:30am

Fritz, your post was entirely appropriate as far as I'm concerned.

We all come here with different life experiences having walked different paths. We learn from each other, and do our best to support each other here.

Our discussions tend to meander, and rarely do they follow a straight line. A group `stream of consciousness'. I personally think that is a good thing.

Guests

Guest Group

Post Options

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: February 19 2006 at 10:49am

I think if �worse comes to worst� , and we can't work through the pain now,
it won't be any easier later. Exorcising old demons is part of the process .

daisygirl

Valued Member

Joined: February 17 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 52

Post Options

Quote daisygirl

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: February 19 2006 at 10:49am

FRITZ,

DON'T BE SO HARD ON YOURSELF, I PERSONALLY HAVE ONLY BEEN ON HERE FOR JUST A FEW DAYS BUT THIS SITE IS SUCH A WONDERFUL SITE. EVEN WHEN THINGS GET OFF TOPIC JUST A BIT, IT'S USUALLY FOR A GOOD REASON. WHEN PEOPLE SHARE STORIES ABOUT THERE LIFE EXPERIENCES LIKE YOURS IT'S DEEP IT REACHES OUR SOULS AND EVERYONE GETS SOMETHING OUT OF IT, EVEN IF IT IS JUST GETTING TO KNOW SOMEONE A LITTLE BETTER. MY BEST FRIEND JUST LOST HER SON TO LEUKEMIA WE HAD OUR KIDS 4 MO'S APART SO MY 8 YR OLD WAS HIS BEST FRIEND. IT'S UNEXPAINABLE THE PAIN AND THATS JUST MINE I AM IN AWE OF HER MOST OF THE TIME BECAUSE YOU GUYS FIND THE STRENGTH TO GO ON, AND THAT IS DOWN RIGHT INSPIRING(SP?). SO EASE UP ON YOURSELF ABOUT GETTING OFF TOPIC. ALWAYS GO WITH WHAT YOU ARE FEELING AT THE TIME, NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE DO!

love in the past is a memory, love in the future is a fantasy, the only time to truly love is now.-buddha

Guests

Guest Group

Post Options

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: February 19 2006 at 11:02am

Sharing your feelings and helping one another is why this forum is here. You can always share your concerns on any topic, at any time. Never worry about going off topic when it comes to sharing something personal.

Guests

Guest Group

Post Options

Thanks(0)

Quote

Posted: February 19 2006 at 11:09am

I wholeheartedly agree with Albert and Fla_Medic.

This is why we are here as much as anything else.

Fritz, I thank you for thinking highly enough of us to share something so personal and difficult.

Debi

fritz

Adviser Group

Joined: February 04 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 332

Post Options