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Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk

Why I find China “guilty”of H5N1 criminal coverup.

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    Posted: April 07 2006 at 12:07pm


If a government finds that they have a horribly lethal illness in their country and refuses to reveal it to the world, and/or refuses to do anything about containing it, then that government is being criminally irresponsible.

Communist China had consistently been guilty of such conduct for years, having covered up HP Bird Flu for about seven years before it escaped China and started killing aggressively in Vietnam and then Thailand. A year later it was in Indonesia.

Prior to 1997 H5N1 was a Low Pathogenic (LP) bird flu virus. It caused no more great concern than did the other Low Pathogenic bird flu viruses.  There are a lot of them.  Chinese peasants were tested for the presence of H5 way back in 1992, and it was estimated that 100,000,000 of the peasants may have had antibodies to H5.  Some sort of H5 virus (most likely LP H5N1 and LP H5N2) was endemic in their population.  That was fine as long as that virus was not killing people and pigs and whole flocks of birds.

Unfortunately, that was not to last.  In Hong Kong (1997) there was an outbreak of Highly Pathogenic (HP) H5N1. Infections occurred in both poultry and humans. 18 people were hospitalized and six of them died. To control the outbreak, Hong Kong authorities killed about 1.5 million chickens to remove the immediate threat of the virus.  That did not eliminate the original source of the infestation, which was mainland China; where, according to Boxun reports, people were getting sick and dying.  That fact was covered up by the Communist Chinese government.

Then, in 2003, two cases of highly pathogenic H5N1 infection occurred among members of a Hong Kong family that had traveled to China. One person recovered, the other died. How or where these two family members were specifically infected was not determined. Another family member died of a “respiratory illness” in China, but no testing was done per Communist mandate.

To the world, it looked like Hong Kong had had two outbreaks of Bird Flu (1997 & 2003), but the reality was that HP H5N1 was endemic to China and they were covering it up.

This strain of H5N1 spread to Vietnam, where for years their Communist Government was reporting some of their cases (but not all) and were clearly indicating that the Bird Flu was coming across from southern China.  China refused to acknowledge that they had Bird Flu in THEIR country and insisted that the problem was solely in Vietnam.

After Qinghai (May 2005) when the new strain of H5N1 appeared to evolve (I call it Sichuan Sheet) it rapidly jumped from species to species and was killing pigs, horses, cows, donkeys, people, fish and so on, Communist China made up a cover story when the virus was killing pigs and people who were butchering pigs or handling raw pork.  The Chinese, insanely maintained that they had the most lethal bacterial (Streptococcus Suis, a relatively benign bacteria) outbreak in the history of the world and that it was capable of killing humans on contact and could do so in hours.  There is no bacteria that can do that, short of direct infusion into the bloodstream, and Vietnam bravely denounced the Chinese claim in August of 2005 by admitting that Bird Flu had, indeed, jumped to pigs and was killing them and people who handled raw meat.  So much for Communist solidarity and cooperation.

I guess the Vietnamese just plain got fed up with all of the lies coming out of China.  Besides, they blamed the Chinese for the spread of Bird Flu across the border into Vietnam.

Below is a Boxun report about Bird Flu in China.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
China about Qinghai H5N1 birds and beasts flu internal classification material

(Editor's note: Below the information abundant news is unable to verify.)
After passes through 2003, 2004, 2005 birds and beasts flu unceasingly occurs, China official in fact already carried on the detailed classification and the basis according to the variation virus classifies the situation, carried on the corresponding decision by China's government department, certainly incompletely like the outside hearsay passive defense, only was China official extremely worries the domestic counter- government tide taking the opportunity caused trouble to government's dominant constitution serious pressure.

As early as already carried on the effective classification in 2004 time official basis domestic virus infection and the death personnel's situation, and occurred after the Qinghai birds and beasts flu carries on the effective supplement to the original classification, here had one thought needs to understand, regarding the non- 致命性 infectious virus, official basically is strictly seals the news, the internal isolation forces to solve. Regarding 致命性 infectious virus in above foundation, but also must thoroughly study, according to the degree determines whether there is transforms the virulent biological weapon the possibility, this point must make clear. Regarding 致命性 the infectious virus, basically all is transfers the military first studies the guard vaccine in the determination dissemination 可控制性, some even can disseminate the virus in the actual life determines its effect. (Abundant news boxun.com)




At present known divides into seven big kinds about 致命性 the birds and beasts flu virus: H5N1 is the host, other are besides H5N1 the variation but

1, H5N1

This is the virus which everybody already knew, basically only disseminates in the domesticated fowl, birds and beasts and so on chicken, duck, bird, did not infect the person in particular, did not pose the threat to the person

2, H5N17B

This is in July, 2004 the virus which discovers in Hunan, the characteristic is also is disseminates in the domesticated fowl, is dissemination domesticated fowl itself which is special is virus's carry, but itself does not arise moreover does not have any infection symptom, only is may disseminate the virus. The domesticated fowl which infects also is the similar symptom, this kind of virus at present only in the chicken, the duck middle dissemination, after the domesticated fowl infection turns viral carry, but does not manifest suddenly. But edible domesticated fowl's animal or the humanity which infects can appear the allergy, the immunity reduces, easily the flu, the physique drops, arise suddenly cardic muscle convulsion and so on. The domesticated fowl food quantity which infects can be very big, but the weight gain are less, this virus completely through contact dissemination.

3, H5N19A

This is in November, 2004 the Shantou area virus, the contact infection, not too greatly distinguishes with H5N1, but infects this virus domesticated fowl's excrement is very special, because Chinese partial area excrement and so on use chicken, duck, pig pours into the fish pond, therefore, is had by this kind of viral influence fish the very strong aggressivity, and has the certain toxicity, the fish bone can change softly, the reason is unclear, this conclusion obtains by the laboratory.

4, H5N1L33

This is the H5N1 variety which in 2004 discovers, its characteristic is uses present the guard vaccine to its is invalid, radically is unable to kill, the basic reason which alone lists is its all symptoms and H5N1 is completely same, biggest is not different, is does not have any birds and beasts flu medicine to have the guard to this virus, moreover this virus has the very strong activeness, even may parasite under the certain temperature in under the humidity permission condition in the insect body, but the at present does not have this kind of viral infection for humanity's any report, at present only has one kind to this kind of virus's solution way, Is burns down.

5, H5N1R12

This is 2004 early times in Xinjiang, places discovery the such as Guangdong Zhanjiang new virus, its characteristic is the virus in the domesticated fowl interior dissemination, moreover may infect gives the humanity, but the person infects the symptom merely is the mild cold symptom, the domesticated fowl and the humanity cannot be fatal, may use the medicine treats. Uses R series classification, R expresses red, namely expresses this virus may infect gives the humanity.

6, H5N1RW4

This is the this year new virus, this is 2004, in 2005 on the discovery virus, has the domesticated fowl infects gives the humanity, does not treat when may cause the humanity death, the person which infects is had mildly may prevent has the infection, this virus has the serious lethality to the domesticated fowl, is infected the domesticated fowl certainly can die, ambush time from 2 days to 60 days between. In the viral carry egg also can carry continues the variation has the immunity ability and differently to the H5N1RW4 new virus, at present uses the birds and beasts beasts medicine for its is invalid, only can use the small dosage the humanity uses same viral medicine.

7, H5N1RK7

The sampling is Qinghai, this is in the present known birds and beasts flu the might biggest one kind, compared with is he which is special is by the birds and beasts class infection for the humanity and between the humanity disseminates, compared with is the person which is special which infects is been unable to return again the infection birds and beasts class, speaks its might big reason is his diagnosis unusual complex, moreover is not suitably discovered, the ambush time is shorter, the death reason completely is because the symptom question diagnosis fault creates the litigant dies.

At present still at studies by no means classifies the naming variation H5N1 also has 3 kinds. Temporarily calls X unknown series

8, H5N1X1

In 2004 the sampling, discovers by the human body flu virus in, may infect the birds and beasts class.

9, H5N1X2

The Qinghai sampling, continues 变异性 the virus, the H5N1RW4 variety, the existing medicine is lower to its function.

10, H5N1X3

Qinghai, Hunan, the Ningxia sampling, infects H5N1RK7 person oneself also has other infectious disease, causes to appear the newborn virus, may between the birds and beasts class humanity and in two between overlapping infections virus

These three kind of virus' material does not have, at present the Chinese official strict blockade virus in fact is these three kinds with H5N1RW4, H5N1RK7, may analyze according to the degree, this three kinds also belong to R series.


The H5N1 series variety virus to humanity's infection in fact unusual obvious, in particular in to its diagnosis in, can have the very big error, at present in the mainland infection virus, are more according to the situation overlapping infection, namely the viral variation speed is quicker, the usual one generation of viral variation became the new virus, the gene 再组合 time already drops from 2003 7 months to 4 months, moreover acted according to local the situation, the variation situation is not also same. _ (abundant news freely sends manuscript area sends manuscript) (abundant news boxun.com)
http://www.peacehall.com/news/gb/china/2005/07/200507160007.shtml



Edited by JoeNeubarth - April 07 2006 at 10:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sweets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 12:11pm
I'm sorry is this latest news? or latest opinion? Great post but doesn't it belong in another part or the forum?Lamp
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No sweets, it does not.  My report is totally factual.  YOU need to learn a whole lot more about the history of Bird Flu.

The Boxun article is not my report, but they present valid information that they always disclamer as not verifiable.

When Boxun was warning the world about SARS before it broke out they established sufficient viability that I felt their comments warranted reposting. The fact of the matter remains that Bird Flu was HP in China from 1997 and possibly a year earlier.  The world first became aware of it when it crossed the "border" into Hong Kong.


Edited by JoeNeubarth - April 07 2006 at 10:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sweets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 12:31pm

YOU need to learn a whole lot more about the history of Bird Flu. 

Yes, but this is the latest news section. I am here like others looking for the latest news stories in this part of the forum.

If your post qualifies I do apologize
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http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Bird_flu/0,,2-10-1959_1893993,00.html

Chinese girl dies of H5N1
03/08/2006 10:25  - (SA)  

Beijing - A nine-year-old girl has died from bird flu in China's eastern province of Zhejiang, bringing the country's death toll from the disease to 10, Xinhua news agency said on Wednesday.

The girl, surnamed You, died on Monday night "after all rescue efforts failed", Xinhua said, quoting the information office of the Ministry of Health.

A 32-year-old man died from the H5N1 strain of bird flu last Thursday in the southern province of Guangdong, near Hong Kong. He was believed to have contracted the virus at a live poultry market.

http://www.recombinomics.com/News/04040602/H5N1_Malaysia_Laos_2006.html

Human H5N1 Bird Flu in China Migrates to Malaysia and Laos

Recombinomics Commentary
April 4, 2006

China has recently released H5N1 HA
sequences from human cases.  These three isolates, from patients in Anhui and Guangxi were similar to a duck sequence from Fujian province (see below).  Hong Kong University has released 2006 H5N1 sequences from Laos and Malaysia, and those isolates are also closely related to the duck sequence from Fujian province.  A characteristic sequence (A/G495C, A/T496G, T497C) were present in the human isolates from China as well as the 2006 isolates from Laos and Malyasia.

These sequences suggest that the H5N1 sequences capable of infecting humans has migrated down to Laos and Malaysia, raising concerns of human cases in those two countries as well as additional provinces in China.

HKU (Yi Guan and Malik Peiris) are to be congratulated for releasing the 2006 sequences prior to publication.

These sequences highlight the importance of a full and up to date database and also point toward the rapid evolution of H5N1 and its growing geographical reach.  The recombination of these sequences with clade 1 H5N1 in Vietnam, Thailand, and Cambodia is cause for additional concern.

A/G495C A/T496G T497C

  ISDN138756  A/
chicken/Malaysia/935/2006    2006  H5N1   
  ISDN138780  A/
duck/Laos/3295/2006             2006  H5N1   
  DQ371928    A/
Anhui/1/2005                              2005  H5N1   
  DQ371929    A/
Anhui/2/2005                              2005  H5N1   
  DQ095629    A/
Duck/Fujian/1734/05                 2005  H5N1   
  DQ371930    A/
Guangxi/1/2005                          2005  H5N1  



Edited by Jhetta - April 07 2006 at 2:29pm
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Hmm, Joe, I don't want to discount the point you are trying to make, but saying something is "Totally factual", when it even contains the statement that the report is "unable to verify", is going a bit far about the information you are presenting.

Given that I myself is fairly certain that China is not forthcoming about information about H5N1 and other health issues, what makes them unique in this regard?  So China should release information from their "secret" databases that then will go into the "secret databases" at the WHO or the CDC? That's a joke!  Why should they meet standards the West won't meet? Dr. Niman at Recombinetics, developer of many of the processes being used here. can't get a look at even the UN or CDC! They have admitted they are not releasing information until people can "publish their papers" and, probably, get their patents.  That's criminal in my book also. (My personal feeling is big pharmaceutal contributors have pressed for this to do exactly what China accuses them of, to get a jump on a 100 billion dollar vaccine).
 
And you say, "refuses to do anything about containing it"?  It sounds like they have done alot, however ineffective it may be.  Billions of vaccinations. quarantines, culls.  I imagine they had the same period of denial most other countries had (or still have).   The US poultry interests have been very busy minmizing the issue.  I have for many years felt the jamming of a million chickens in a building, giving them antibiotics in feeds so they gain a few extra ounces (and thereby cause many deaths in people since the cheap antibiotics are no longer effective against the microbes that emerge from these microbe farms.)  Europe banned that practice many years, based on the scientific evidence.  The USA continues. Who is criminally irresponsibe as well?
 
I feel the same economic and power interests in play in China's deficiencies are in effect for the UN and many of the Westerm countries as well.  It is not effective to try to generate whatever it is you are trying to generate against China when the similar behaviors WE can control are going on.  Let's pressure the CDC and WHO, and Pharmaceutal companies to release ALL information! To not hide any outbreak! Let's make it the death penalty (the crime: betrayal of the human race?) to NOT do so.  THEN, WE have some credibilty to put pressure on a country like China, and others. In the meantime, how about our restructured CIA getting the inteilgence anyway? Or maybe we will have figured it out and can forget about them because all our scientists can work on it.


Edited by Fiddlerdave - April 07 2006 at 1:56pm
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I could not agree more on many points Fiddlerdave

Edited by Jhetta - April 07 2006 at 1:15pm
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Thank you, Joe...everytime I see one of these articles, it really helps me to gather my energy back up and keep on prepping. They scare the heck out of me, as well they should. Thank you again.
Serenity now!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mondegreen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 2:33pm
Great Post Joe-Old news to some is new news to many. I started reading the boxum in or about 2004. I became frustrated in why the Chinese person could not write better, then I was told it was a sweeping robot that gathered information by sweeping the server pages for key words. I believe now China has been hiding the outbreaks because of the sweeping capitalist reforms for big business development.
I can only wonder if any of the viruses came across in products and containers from the Asia country. Since the government reacts differently to rural people and inter-city people the health problems of the rural agricultural population can not really be any different then our own.  Plus any person that posted information of diseases or outbreaks was either eliminated or was placed in a cage..
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A forum member here posted a dog food package pic, I think from Thailand, that he bought at Costco? labeled as "irradiated", which would indeed make it safe.  Want a irradiation machine for my house.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 10:34pm
Originally posted by sweets sweets wrote:

YOU need to learn a whole lot more about the history of Bird Flu. 

Yes, but this is the latest news section. I am here like others looking for the latest news stories in this part of the forum.

If your post qualifies I do apologize
It all depends upon what you view as news.  I call it "Current History." The Brits insist that it is not history until it is a generation old (or so I was told in college.) Anything within a generation is "Current Events" to them.

If it is just "Current Events" or "Current History" it is still Current, and should be treated as news.  Especially when one considers that outsiders come here looking for information of a general nature.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Linda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2006 at 11:01pm
I've been reading boxun.com and I think I even posted something from it but have been researching it more.  Boxun was the sight that got the news out about SARS and so their posts have been considered reliable....however....they had some unreliable post and pictures that were put up and "doctored" and so the founder of the site lets people know that thet put information up to be either proven true or proven false....anyone can post anything there and it's not checked out and so should be considered as opinion until proven.

Edited by Linda - April 07 2006 at 11:02pm
Insanity is making the same mistakes and expecting different results....therefore...Those who don't learn from history are bound to go insane.
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Originally posted by Fiddlerdave Fiddlerdave wrote:

Hmm, Joe, I don't want to discount the point you are trying to make, but saying something is "Totally factual", when it even contains the statement that the report is "unable to verify", is going a bit far about the information you are presenting.

  You are talking about the appended Boxun report, not my report.

Originally posted by Fiddlerdave Fiddlerdave wrote:

Given that I myself is fairly certain that China is not forthcoming about information about H5N1 and other health issues, what makes them unique in this regard?  So China should release information from their "secret" databases that then will go into the "secret databases" at the WHO or the CDC? That's a joke!  Why should they meet standards the West won't meet? Dr. Niman at Recombinetics, developer of many of the processes being used here. can't get a look at even the UN or CDC! They have admitted they are not releasing information until people can "publish their papers" and, probably, get their patents.  That's criminal in my book also. (My personal feeling is big pharmaceutal contributors have pressed for this to do exactly what China accuses them of, to get a jump on a 100 billion dollar vaccine).
The issue about China was the tremendous length of their coverup (7 years and then some post Qinghai.)  It does appear that they are starting to cooperate, but some factual admissions of their blatant criminal dishonesty is in order. Strep-Suis? -- That was so assinine that it was laughable, save for the fact that hundreds were dying.
 
Originally posted by Fiddlerdave Fiddlerdave wrote:

And you say, "refuses to do anything about containing it"?  It sounds like they have done alot, however ineffective it may be.  Billions of vaccinations. quarantines, culls.  I imagine they had the same period of denial most other countries had (or still have).
Nope, it was seven years.

Originally posted by Fiddlerdave Fiddlerdave wrote:

The US poultry interests have been very busy minmizing the issue.  I have for many years felt the jamming of a million chickens in a building, giving them antibiotics in feeds so they gain a few extra ounces (and thereby cause many deaths in people since the cheap antibiotics are no longer effective against the microbes that emerge from these microbe farms.)  Europe banned that practice many years, based on the scientific evidence.  The USA continues. Who is criminally irresponsibe as well?
I do not see any criminality in our chicken farms, but I do see some lack of compassion for the harsh conditions of the chickens.
 
Originally posted by Fiddlerdave Fiddlerdave wrote:

I feel the same economic and power interests in play in China's deficiencies are in effect for the UN and many of the Westerm countries as well.  It is not effective to try to generate whatever it is you are trying to generate against China when the similar behaviors WE can control are going on.  Let's pressure the CDC and WHO, and Pharmaceutal companies to release ALL information! To not hide any outbreak! Let's make it the death penalty (the crime: betrayal of the human race?) to NOT do so.  THEN, WE have some credibilty to put pressure on a country like China, and others. In the meantime, how about our restructured CIA getting the inteilgence anyway? Or maybe we will have figured it out and can forget about them because all our scientists can work on it.
I don't think that suggestion will fly, but there is something admirable about it.  I do believe that China had a multitude of reasons to hide Bird Flu.  The biggest is speculation about it being a bio weapon experiment gone wrong, having escaped the lab into the peasant population.  We will never get confirmation from China on that, but the nature of their coverup would sure suggest that was the case.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fiddlerdave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2006 at 3:07am
"The issue about China was the tremendous length of their coverup (7 years and then some post Qinghai.)  "
 
What's criminal about it? Even now, large numbers of scientists and leaders say its unlikely the bird flu is dangerous to humans, why should China be more proactive than anyone else?  And the CDC and WHO are still covering up, by their own admission.  And, at this point in time, China has released information, and the WHO has not! When are we going to see "criminal admissions of dishonesty" from those agencies?  Certainly, never! 
 
"Strep-Suis? -- That was so assinine that it was laughable, save for the fact that hundreds were dying."
 
More than 70,000 a year in the USA dies of regular flu. A regular refrain here from scientists and leaders is that "less than 200 have died from H5N1".  Don't worry!
 
"I do not see any criminality in our chicken farms, but I do see some lack of compassion for the harsh conditions of the chickens."
Why is it not criminal to breed super germs that are resistant to antibiotics?  There are very legitimate concerns about the mounting antibiotic resistant bacteria.  I find it ludicrous that people are supposed to not use them so we don't create these bacteria, but the corporate farms feed them by the trainload to make a few more cents profit, damn the future! How is that less criminal?  Much of the rest of the world condemns the practice because of the dangers, but lobbyist money wins over science every time here.
 
"The biggest is speculation about it being a bio weapon experiment gone wrong, having escaped the lab into the peasant population.  We will never get confirmation from China on that, but the nature of their coverup would sure suggest that was the case."
 
I just don't see China doing anything that most other countries aren't or wouldn't do.  Only the spread of H5N1 across the world is forcing a somewhat reluctant response, and until the world spread in birds  happened, if China had released all the information you want, there would have been one big yawn. 
 
Don't get me wrong, the Chinese government is a hard ball player, and I think it is likely they are going to give the USA a hard blow, as soon as they get prepared.  But their preparedness is diversifying and unloading their US dollars, and when the time is right, they'll pull the plug, not by spreading virus, but by not buying treasury bonds, forcing  our interest rates back to double digits, crippling our economy.  But by claiming evil and criminal intent for behavior shared by institutions we support, we get no where.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tonseck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2006 at 7:05am
I think this is more appropriate for the Discussion forum.  Can't it be moved?
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Originally posted by carpenter carpenter wrote:

I think this is more appropriate for the Discussion forum.  Can't it be moved?


Current Events and comments about them are appropriate for News.  It could fit in the Discussion forum, but would lose the currency issue.  The WHO partial coverup is ongoing.  The lack of honesty of China and other countries is also a current ugly ongoing reality that they have only partially abated.

It is better that a topic of such massive importance and currency should be treated as "current."  Why do YOU have such a problem with it?  Are you an agent for the Chinese Communist government who has been asked to go out on public forums in the West and dispute and attack the reality of unchecked spread of Sichuan Sheet/H5N1 for years now?

For Fiddler Dave: This is not a question of a lack of initial action and a problem with admitting to yourself that IT is here as we have seen in so many countries.  It is a request for accounting from Communist China for their foolish coverup for over seven years while the illness spread to neighboring countries and caused deaths in those countries.

Why the massive coverup?  Why the totally foolish ruse?  Why such inane claims like the stupid one about Strep-Suis?  Why?  Why?  Why?
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Fiddler: "More than 70,000 a year in the USA dies of regular flu."

The actual number is estimated to be 30,000 by most sources, and I think that is exaggerated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sweets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2006 at 11:25am
It is better that a topic of such massive importance and currency should be treated as "current."  Why do YOU have such a problem with it?  Are you an agent for the Chinese Communist government who has been asked to go out on public forums in the West and dispute and attack the reality of unchecked spread of Sichuan Sheet/H5N1 for years now?
Your kidding right?Nuke
I'm not a ribbering Jidiot!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2006 at 11:28am
Originally posted by sweets sweets wrote:

It is better that a topic of such massive importance and currency should be treated as "current."  Why do YOU have such a problem with it?  Are you an agent for the Chinese Communist government who has been asked to go out on public forums in the West and dispute and attack the reality of unchecked spread of Sichuan Sheet/H5N1 for years now?
Your kidding right?Nuke


Of course I'm kidding!

The irony of the post deserved a little taunt, didn't itWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buttercup Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2006 at 11:52am
Joe, I just wanted to thank you for posting and to echo the sentiment in BelleStarr's post. Your contributions continue to be extremely valuable to this forum and although they oftentimes give me the chills it does keep me focused on the task at hand....being prepared!!
Prepare Relentlessly!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fiddlerdave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2006 at 1:51pm

Look at the history of AIDS.  The USA was so head-in-the-sand for so many years, denying the existence, denying the severity.  When those became unassailable, we had officials saying people who get it deserve it so it still required no action, no warnings to the rest of the world!  Does that male the US government "criminally irreseponsible"? And for the record, I think it does, for both China and the US.  My suggestion of the death penalty for hiding, hoardin or suppressing information on a disease was serious. But I want it to apply to all! Whether its China, whether its the USA or any other government, communist, capitalist, or dictator du jour.

I think Chinese government is corrupt, cynical, very smart (they are kicking our butts in trade).  But the BF train is rolling into the station.  If we ask China, or anyone else, for cooperation, we may get it.  If we ask for cooperation and an admission of criminally neglgent behavior, we are not gonna get it.  Not from China, not from the WHO or CDC or at least 20 other countries or anyone else, all of whom I believe are doing similar behaviors.  And right now, no matter how guilty they are, no matter how "evil empire" they are, I would prefer their cooperation to tossing broad philosphical condemnations using leftover labels from the Cold War.  When the pandemic is over, the survivors can decide how many resources they want to devote to such an endeavor.  In fact, what country survives the pandemic best may be illustrative of another aspect of an economic system.
 
In the meantime, while scientists in the West (and the pharmaceutal companies they own them) that MY tax money support withhold and hide information that could go to help me and my country, please understand why I find it counterproductive to equate "Communism" with  governmental corruption and criminality.  The corruption comes from all flavors, and right now, condemning one and not the other brings smiles to certain multi-national CEO's, who will laugh all the way to the bank, walking on the backs of the dead.
Dave
"Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for us"!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tonseck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2006 at 3:41pm
Why, why, why?  Because you're paranoid?  Please post information supporting your assertion that hundreds in China have died of Avian Influenza.  Anything credible would help.  I would accept your rantings a bit more if there seemed to be any support for them.
 
No, Joe, I am not a supporter or member of the Chinese government.  I suspect that they are hding something also.  But I try not to rant on endlessly without supporting my argument with some factual evidence.
 
When the China story breaks, you can say "I told you so" and I will accept the evidence from there.  Up to now, all I have read is noise!
Don't be afraid to be afraid; it keeps you on your toes.
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Your nastiness betrays you.  Why are you so vulgar and evil in your posts? 

It doesn't take much common sense to know that people were infected with HP H5N1 from 1997 through 2005 when China kept on saying that they did not have Bird Flu.

Perhaps you really want to believe that people were just dying in Hong Kong and Vietnam exclusively, but the Chinese were miraculously spared any illness?

Foolishness! TOTAL FOOLISHNESS, considering that the "reported outbreaks" were all along the border areas with China while China was constantly denying any Bird Flu in their country.

The Boxun reports mentioned the spread of the illness and the deaths.  The LARGE "Streptococcus Suis" epidemic in China was not Strep.  Strep has never killed on contact like that and never will, yet hundreds of Chinese were dying and that was admitted at least partially by their own government. They had to come up with some sort of story to placate the masses. That was also the reason why the Chinese refused to list H5N1 as a cause of death on their death reports.  If it can not be listed, it does not exist, Right? 

Vietnam exposed the Chinese ruse in August of last year by admitting that they had Bird Flu in pigs at the same time the Chinese were claiming that it was Strep Suis.  You know this because you have read the articles. Yet, you persist in trying to deceive readers on this board. Why?




Edited by JoeNeubarth - April 09 2006 at 8:12am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Corn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2006 at 8:47am
Joe, Can I filp the elctric chair switch when China is found guilty?Big smile
 
Carpenter, Joe is a good man. Well studied. Well educated.
Joe has backed up his data overe and over if you care to research his post. If you are polite I'm sure he may take the time to supply you some links.
 
Joe talks from experience and after all this time just assumes you're up to speed.
 
He is worth listening to. Do as you wish with the data. Agree to dis agree but don't hound him. He's been with us from the beginning and will be here when it is all said and done.v He can prove all he has spoken about.  Research his post is Flubola intrigues you.
Dr Niman will also concur with Joe as well as promed.
 
Let's all live and let live.
Joe is the real deal.
 
There are very few facts about bf. You must be able to read between the lines just like in 1918.
The facts will come after the fact when it is too late.
 
peace and love.
 


Edited by Corn - April 09 2006 at 9:04am
Speculation is the only tool we have with a threat that can circle the globe in 30 days. Test results&news is slow.Factor in human conditions,politics, money&bingo!The truth!Facts come after the fact.
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Originally posted by JoeNeubarth JoeNeubarth wrote:

Originally posted by sweets sweets wrote:

Yes, but this is the latest news section. I am here like others looking for the latest news stories in this part of the forum. If your post qualifies I do apologize
It all depends upon what you view as news.  I call it "Current History." The Brits insist that it is not history until it is a generation old (or so I was told in college.) Anything within a generation is "Current Events" to them. If it is just "Current Events" or "Current History" it is still Current, and should be treated as news.  Especially when one considers that outsiders come here looking for information of a general nature.
I don't see how the initial post for latest news CAN NOT turn into a discussion.  If it's latest news, then this is where it needs to be and those of us that do NOT want to follow the ensuing discussion, can choose NOT to continue reading the resulting posts that follow.  Or should the initial latest news posts be duplicated into 'discussions' and the banter that follows carried on there?  Personally, it doesn't matter to me ... I just skim through, see what direction the discussion is going and choose to read or not read.-k
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Originally posted by ReadyMom ReadyMom wrote:

Originally posted by JoeNeubarth JoeNeubarth wrote:

Originally posted by sweets sweets wrote:

Yes, but this is the latest news section. I am here like others looking for the latest news stories in this part of the forum. If your post qualifies I do apologize
It all depends upon what you view as news.  I call it "Current History." The Brits insist that it is not history until it is a generation old (or so I was told in college.) Anything within a generation is "Current Events" to them. If it is just "Current Events" or "Current History" it is still Current, and should be treated as news.  Especially when one considers that outsiders come here looking for information of a general nature.
I don't see how the initial post for latest news CAN NOT turn into a discussion.  If it's latest news, then this is where it needs to be and those of us that do NOT want to follow the ensuing discussion, can choose NOT to continue reading the resulting posts that follow.  Or should the initial latest news posts be duplicated into 'discussions' and the banter that follows carried on there?  Personally, it doesn't matter to me ... I just skim through, see what direction the discussion is going and choose to read or not read.-k


________________________________________
This is going to be totally off topic, but your post brought a flashback to me.  First let me say thank you for your comment.  It was very appropriate.  The whole purpose of the forum is to discuss the news articles.  Since China is still covering up their outbreaks, it is current news.

Now for the Off Topic issue:

I left home at the age of 14 and was employed as a night manager for a mobile home park (inexpensive employee and this was way back in 1963). Most of the tenants were elderly and I was there in case of an emergency.  I knew first aid and could call the emergency services if necessary.  On top of that I parked overnight campers and travel trailers and collected rental fees.....

I learned so very much from the elderly retirees.  Many of the men had fought in the First World War.  All had gone through the Great Depression. All were wiling to sit for hours in the office and tell me about their lives.  It was the greatest education a young man could have ever had.  I learned to be astute in making observations.  One thing I picked up on early was that many of the marriages were kept together because of some need the participants had to constantly bicker and nag. 

Honest!  There were marriages that seemed to thrive on minor but constant conflict. I could walk through the park at night on my security rounds and hear blue haired old ladies and their baldheaded husbands arguing over the same things they had argued over for years.

"You did too make a pass at her back in 1939!  She even told me you did."
"Dang it woman, I never did! Helen just wished that I did. Won't you ever give it a rest?"

That couple could be seen walking hand in hand every evening as they strolled around the park greeting their neighbors. One would never think that they would be spending the remainder of the evening arguing about trivia, but they always did.

Some people live to argue.  That is true on these boards.  If someone can pick a small item to argue about, they will.  They want strife in their life because they do not have enough at home.  You can easily see them on boards like this one.  AND you can chose to participate or to ignore.  Ignore works very well most of the time.


Edited by JoeNeubarth - April 09 2006 at 12:02pm
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